What is the meaning of Grace, according to the Bible?

[David1701]

Animal sacrifices was works the priesthood had to do, because of sin. Paul said in (Gal. 6) (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden. That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. You mean you thought that all you had to do was confess the name of Jesus and that was it? You must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you.

Jesus said in (Matt. 16:24-27) (v.24) Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. That was the Lord’s burden, to die on the cross for the sins of man. Now as we read earlier every man must bear his own burden, and what is your burden? (v.25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. You must give up your life in this world; you must not get caught up in the cares of this world. You must bring forth-good fruits of faith by keeping God’s commandments, statues, and judgments. (v.26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

You must work to get salvation.

Eph. 2:8-10 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12).

We agree on this brother but does nothing to answer the questions I asked you. Again, I was speaking of what *justifies* us--not what is important as resulting from our Justification. After all, if we are not Justified, then there is no use obeying God's laws at all, because it will never suffice to reconnect us to God.

 

[bro.tan]

We agree on this brother but does nothing to answer the questions I asked you. Again, I was speaking of what *justifies* us--not what is important as resulting from our Justification. After all, if we are not Justified, then there is no use obeying God's laws at all, because it will never suffice to reconnect us to God.

Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. You must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY. (v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can. Just as you choose by your own free will to start serving the lord, you can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul. And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.

Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

 

[bro.tan]

Eph. 2:8-10 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God had Peter to clearly warn us about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Now let us take heed to this warning, we can’t ignore all the bible and just concentrate on a hand full of verses out of the writings of Paul. Because some of Paul’s writing is hard to be understood.

Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. You can't go around picking verses out the Bible that lines up with your doctrine. Rightly dividing the truth starts from Genesis to Revelation.

Two different types of works you don't understand. Let's quote the one you post....

Eph. 2:8-10 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. You must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY. (v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can. Just as you choose by your own free will to start serving the lord, you can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul. And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.

Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12).

Unbelievable! I ask you questions about Justification and you simply go on to claim that we must obey God's commandments! As I've told you, obeying God is not the issue when we speak of Justification. It is clear from Scriptures that our obedience does *not* Justify us. Instead, our obedience reveals a spotty record, and just a single sin can keep us out of heaven, just as one sin kept Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. A single sin disqualifies us from remaining in God's presence. And so, obedience *cannot* Justify us!

But you completely ignore this and prefer to just drone on about obedience--something we would all agree on, ignoring the most important matter of Justification. It is important because without Justification obedience continues to keep us out of God's presence, not just now but forever. We must live by Grace, and not by the record of our performance. We must perform yes, but that is *not* the basis of our Justification.

So, the issue is not obedience, which we all agree is important to show our faith. And I wouldn't at all say that faith is cheap and excludes obedience. Rather, obedience is the means of showing our faith. So, faith justifies us by showing our obedience as well as by showing that we are trusting in Christ's work as the basis of our Justification.

But when we place our obedience in the Law of Moses we are determining that we are relying on a system designed to show our flaws, as opposed to relying on Christ who bases our relationship with God on His mercy. If we place our obedience in a Law that utilizes outdated means of temporary justification, then we nullify our dependence on Christ himself, who alone can provide permenant Justification.

So, what is it--reliance on the Law of Moses, with its exclusion of dependence on Christ, or obedience that shows our reliance on Christ? This is what you obscure in your constant droning on about the need to obey. You avoid the issue of Justification altogether by making faith something less than it really is, as if it excludes obedience to God.

It does not. Obedience to God's word is what upholds and supports our faith. And it is faith in Christ alone that Justifies. Obedience without Christ cannot possibly Justify anybody.

When you make something under the Law of Moses, such as Sabbath Law, the basis of our Justification, you are excluding Christ and his obedience as the basis of our Salvation. We cannot earn, by Sabbath obedience, Eternal Life. Rather, Christ obtained for us Eternal Life by virtue of His own personal holiness and willingness to grant to us God's mercy and grace. You don't seem to understand this?

Obedience is indeed important, but only to show our reliance upon Christ. It is Christ who Justifies, and not our record of obedience.

 

[bro.tan]

Unbelievable! I ask you questions about Justification and you simply go on to claim that we must obey God's commandments! As I've told you, obeying God is not the issue when we speak of Justification. It is clear from Scriptures that our obedience does *not* Justify us. Instead, our obedience reveals a spotty record, and just a single sin can keep us out of heaven, just as one sin kept Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden. A single sin disqualifies us from remaining in God's presence. And so, obedience *cannot* Justify us!

A single sin you say. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

But you completely ignore this and prefer to just drone on about obedience--something we would all agree on, ignoring the most important matter of Justification. It is important because without Justification obedience continues to keep us out of God's presence, not just now but forever. We must live by Grace, and not by the record of our performance. We must perform yes, but that is *not* the basis of our Justification.

Paul says in Romans 6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

So, the issue is not obedience, which we all agree is important to show our faith. And I wouldn't at all say that faith is cheap and excludes obedience. Rather, obedience is the means of showing our faith. So, faith justifies us by showing our obedience as well as by showing that we are trusting in Christ's work as the basis of our Justification.

But when we place our obedience in the Law of Moses we are determining that we are relying on a system designed to show our flaws, as opposed to relying on Christ who bases our relationship with God on His mercy. If we place our obedience in a Law that utilizes outdated means of temporary justification, then we nullify our dependence on Christ himself, who alone can provide permenant Justification.

So, what is it--reliance on the Law of Moses, with its exclusion of dependence on Christ, or obedience that shows our reliance on Christ? This is what you obscure in your constant droning on about the need to obey. You avoid the issue of Justification altogether by making faith something less than it really is, as if it excludes obedience to God.

It does not. Obedience to God's word is what upholds and supports our faith. And it is faith in Christ alone that Justifies. Obedience without Christ cannot possibly Justify anybody.

When you make something under the Law of Moses, such as Sabbath Law, the basis of our Justification, you are excluding Christ and his obedience as the basis of our Salvation. We cannot earn, by Sabbath obedience, Eternal Life. Rather, Christ obtained for us Eternal Life by virtue of His own personal holiness and willingness to grant to us God's mercy and grace. You don't seem to understand this?

Obedience is indeed important, but only to show our reliance upon Christ. It is Christ who Justifies, and not our record of obedience.

Let’s go to Proverbs 16: 2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; But the LORD weigheth the spirits. 3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, And thy thoughts shall be established. 5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: Though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished. 6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: And by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Let’s go into Ecclesiastes 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Paul said in (Gal. 6) (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden. That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. You must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you.

 

[Randy Kluth]

A single sin you say. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27)

I'm not talking about our record of sin, which we all have, even as Christians! I'm talking about the *system of justification* that we use to either cover those sins or not.

When we try to follow one of the requirements of the Law of Moses, and rely on that *system,* we are giving ourselves a false form of justification, because the Law as a system cannot justify us. But when we live by faith in Jesus, trusting in his revelation alone, and not on requirements given under the Law, we are choosing to live under a completely new system.

That system of reliance upon Jesus alone does not invalidate the principles of morality contained in the Law. Rather, it places morality under a brand new system such that we do not meet the requirement of morality under the Law but only under Christ.

You might ask, "What is the difference between obeying the law not to kill under the Law and obeying the law not to kill under Christ? The difference is the system we're in allegiance to, whether to the Law of Moses or to Christ alone.

Granted, Israel had to trust in a temporary system until Christ came. For awhile, it was okay to trust in that temporary system because it was based on the future coming of Christ to complete full redemption. But once Christ came, going back to rely on the Law is to reject the very basis of redemption the Law was designed to anticipate.

When we avoid murder in allegiance to Christ, in fulfillmen of the prohibition of murder in the Law, we know that we don't have to obey relics of morality that existed exclusively under the Law, such as Sabbath Law, the Law of Animal Sacrifice, Temple Law, Dietary Law, Festival Law, Laws of Purification, Priestly Law, etc. etc.

Moral Law has to be extracted from anything associated exclusively from the Old Covenant system in order to show we're relying only on Christ alone as our system of choice. We have to acknowledge that the Old Covenant was designed to only temporarily apply to Israel until Christ came. Returning to reliance upon the Law is, in effect, choosing to deny that it was designed to be completed in Christ.

If we choose to obey Sabbath Law when that is exclusively a part of the OT system, and not a part of the Christian system, we are choosing to live under a system that takes our sins into consideration when determining our eternal destiny. Only Christ and dependence on him can determine that we have and will have Eternal Life. Only Christ can fully cover sin. OT Law only covered sin for Israel on a temporary basis until Christ came.

 

[bro.tan]

I'm not talking about our record of sin, which we all have, even as Christians! I'm talking about the *system of justification* that we use to either cover those sins or not.

When we try to follow one of the requirements of the Law of Moses, and rely on that *system,* we are giving ourselves a false form of justification, because the Law as a system cannot justify us. But when we live by faith in Jesus, trusting in his revelation alone, and not on requirements given under the Law, we are choosing to live under a completely new system.

That system of reliance upon Jesus alone does not invalidate the principles of morality contained in the Law. Rather, it places morality under a brand new system such that we do not meet the requirement of morality under the Law but only under Christ.

What Law are you talking about??

You might ask, "What is the difference between obeying the law not to kill under the Law and obeying the law not to kill under Christ? The difference is the system we're in allegiance to, whether to the Law of Moses or to Christ alone.

Granted, Israel had to trust in a temporary system until Christ came. For awhile, it was okay to trust in that temporary system because it was based on the future coming of Christ to complete full redemption. But once Christ came, going back to rely on the Law is to reject the very basis of redemption the Law was designed to anticipate.

When we avoid murder in allegiance to Christ, in fulfillmen of the prohibition of murder in the Law, we know that we don't have to obey relics of morality that existed exclusively under the Law, such as Sabbath Law, the Law of Animal Sacrifice, Temple Law, Dietary Law, Festival Law, Laws of Purification, Priestly Law, etc. etc.

Moral Law has to be extracted from anything associated exclusively from the Old Covenant system in order to show we're relying only on Christ alone as our system of choice. We have to acknowledge that the Old Covenant was designed to only temporarily apply to Israel until Christ came. Returning to reliance upon the Law is, in effect, choosing to deny that it was designed to be completed in Christ.

If we choose to obey Sabbath Law when that is exclusively a part of the OT system, and not a part of the Christian system, we are choosing to live under a system that takes our sins into consideration when determining our eternal destiny. Only Christ and dependence on him can determine that we have and will have Eternal Life. Only Christ can fully cover sin. OT Law only covered sin for Israel on a temporary basis until Christ came.

You are confuse on which law is which. Paul says in (Gal. 3:1, 13, 16-17, 19, 24) (v.1) O FOOLISH Ga-la’-tians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (v.13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE: What law is this talking about? Let the bible speak for itself.

(v.16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of One, AND TO THY SEED, which is Christ. (v.17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

To sum up what going on here in Galatians, Paul is explaining that Christ came from Abraham seed, and remove the animal Sacrificial law. But in the days of Abraham that animal Sacrificial law never was on the table, and was not needed for Abraham to obey and have faith in God. But the Commandments was always on the table.

Now pay attention, the law that is being spoken of here came four hundred and thirty years after this covenant. But God’s holy commandments have been around forever even before man was created. Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. (1John 3:4)

(v.19) Wherefore then serveth the law? A question is being asked here. Then why should we serve this law? It was added because of transgression, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the law that we are talking about here was added because of sin. But we now know that sin is the transgression of the law.

How do you add a law if sin is the transgression of the law? Because there are two sets of laws, you have God’s holy commandments which abided forever, and you had the animal sacrificial law which was added because of sin, but it was only good until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and that seed was Jesus.

(v.24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster. (Paul breaks down more of this law in Hebrew 10th Chapter)

And this schoolmaster taught you that when you sinned in ignorance blood had to be shed (an animal sacrificed). But Christ being the ultimate sacrifice shed his precious blood once and for all, and by doing this putting an end to the animal sacrificial law.

Paul says in Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. So when you quoted all the places in the Bible that do away with this animal sacrificial law, not understanding that Paul talks about two sets of law. The Royal law (Ten Commandments) and the animal sacrificial law sometimes in the same verse you bring can bring destruction to yourself not knowing which law is which.

At some point common sense should kick in. If I'm reading about the doing away of a law or not under a law, then somewhere else Paul tell you that the law is Holy just and good, another place Paul breaks mostly all the Ten commandments down. A light bulb should come on in your head, Paul have to be talking about two sets of laws. In other places Paul explain the animal sacrificial law.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What Law are you talking about??

There are only two senses of God's Law that I refer to: either the Law of Moses or the Law of God as a general principle of God's requirements under any covenant. The Law of Moses is tied to a specific covenant, whether moral law or ceremonial law--it is a system of temporary justification, and not a system of final justification.

If you keep a moral law under the Law of Moses, such as "Do not kill," it remains an inadquate form of justification, even though the same moral law may be available under the system of Christ. It really matters *under what system* you are obeying Moral Law?

You are confuse on which law is which. Paul says in (Gal. 3:1, 13, 16-17, 19, 24) (v.1) O FOOLISH Ga-la’-tians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? (v.13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE: What law is this talking about? Let the bible speak for itself

Your quote does not determine anything different from what I just said. The Law of Moses is tied to the Old Covenant, which contains both Moral Law and Ceremonial Law. It is an inadequate system of justification. If anybody thinks just keeping the Moral part of the Law of Moses is adequate, just look at what Jesus said to the Rich Young Ruler....

Matt 19.16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

(v.16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of One, AND TO THY SEED, which is Christ. (v.17) And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

To sum up what going on here in Galatians, Paul is explaining that Christ came from Abraham seed, and remove the animal Sacrificial law. But in the days of Abraham that animal Sacrificial law never was on the table, and was not needed for Abraham to obey and have faith in God. But the Commandments was always on the table.

You are confusing how Faith saved before or under the system of Law and how Faith is actually tied to Christ's system of justification. Anything prior to the cross of Christ relies on faith that lacks a system of final justification unless it is looking beyond it to Christ's system of justification--a system relying not on self-justification, but on trust in God's mercy.

The Law did not rely on man's record of righteousness, which was flawed. Rather, it relied upon God's mercy. It was not a self-validating system, but rather, a precursor to a new system, which also relied on God's mercy, but added a means of final justification, including Christ's unflawed record of righteousness.

If you remain tied to the Old Covenant system, whether exercising Morality or following Ceremonial Law, you are not relying on Christ's record of righteousness, but on your own flawed record of righteousness. As such, you remain unjustified in the final sense.

Faith is able to look forward to Christ's system of justification even before it is realized. This does not validate pre-Christian Law--rather, it validates Faith as a precursor to the system of Christian justificaiton. It only validates the Law of Moses as an expression of faith that looks beyond the Law to something better.

Faith is ever a system that relies upon God's mercy. Whether a sinner as yet unjustified in the OT era or a sinner justified in the Christian era, faith relies upon God's mercy. It does not depend on the human record of righteousness, which always falls short of final justification. It always looks beyond man's record of righteousness, no matter how valid it is, because any sin will disqualify us. The Law pointed this out, and Christ himself pointed it out.

The presence of faith under the Old Covenant system, or under the Law of Moses, does not validate it as a means of final justification. It only validates the faith that looks necessarily beyond it to a means of final justification through Christ's record and gift of righteousness.

Now pay attention, the law that is being spoken of here came four hundred and thirty years after this covenant. But God’s holy commandments have been around forever even before man was created. Remember that Satan was kicked out of heaven because iniquity (sin) was found in him. And what is sin? The transgression of the law (commandments). Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. (1John 3:4)

(v.19) Wherefore then serveth the law? A question is being asked here. Then why should we serve this law? It was added because of transgression, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; the law that we are talking about here was added because of sin. But we now know that sin is the transgression of the law.

How do you add a law if sin is the transgression of the law?

This just proves my point that there are two senses of God's Law, the general sense requiring obedience to God under all covenants and the technical application of Moses' Law, which involved both Moral Law and Ceremonial Law. What was "added" was the Law of Moses. The "transgression" that previously existed was sin against the general sense of God's Law, requiring obedience under any occasion.

You seem to wish to divide Ceremonial Law from Moral Law as two distinct systems? They aren't. The Law of Moses was strictly Old Covenant. And even though it contained Moral Law, that did not validate the Old Covenant system as a final means of justification.

Again, final justification is based on faith, which looks beyond the Old Covenant and beyond the Law of Moses to the record of Christ's righteousness and his enablement of virtue for those who completely commit to him. Saying the Moral Law remains a valid aspect of the Law of Moses excludes Christ as a necessary means of final vindication. People cannot follow Moral Law alone, excluding dependence on Christ, and be saved.

Because there are two sets of laws, you have God’s holy commandments which abided forever, and you had the animal sacrificial law which was added because of sin, but it was only good until the seed should come to whom the promise was made, and that seed was Jesus.

The Law of Moses clearly was not just "animal sacrifical law." Rather, it was both Moral Law and Ceremonial Law. If you keep the Law prohibiting murder *under the Law of Moses* you cannot obtain final justification--only if your faith looks beyond that system as now obsolete, since Christ has now supplanted it. If you keep God's Law prohibiting murder under the New Covenant you rely on Christ's righteousness, as well as on God's mercy.

It is *Christ's righteousness* that justifies, and our faith relies on that instead of on our moral adherance, which is only representative of our faith in Christ's righteousness. Whatever we do that is right relies upon Christ for our validation.

(v.24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. This animal sacrificial law was only a schoolmaster. (Paul breaks down more of this law in Hebrew 10th Chapter)

I agree--Paul is talking about God's Law residing in two different eras and in two different covenants. That goes without saying.

To understand Paul you must recognize that he opposed the Law of Moses as a system of final justification, but credited it as a moral system and as a system of temporary justification. Paul recognized that the Law of Moses showed in its form of righteousness an example of faith ultimately directed towards Christ as its object, supplanting the temporary system of the Law.

Be Moral, but don't say you're under the Law of Moses. That Law was designed not to validate itself but only to point out our flaws, which delegitimized us. Rather, we are moral now because the Law directed us to Christ, who requires that we depend on him and on his record for moral validation.

 

[bro.tan]

There are only two senses of God's Law that I refer to: either the Law of Moses or the Law of God as a general principle of God's requirements under any covenant. The Law of Moses is tied to a specific covenant, whether moral law or ceremonial law--it is a system of temporary justification, and not a system of final justification.

If you keep a moral law under the Law of Moses, such as "Do not kill," it remains an inadquate form of justification, even though the same moral law may be available under the system of Christ. It really matters *under what system* you are obeying Moral Law?

Your quote does not determine anything different from what I just said. The Law of Moses is tied to the Old Covenant, which contains both Moral Law and Ceremonial Law. It is an inadequate system of justification. If anybody thinks just keeping the Moral part of the Law of Moses is adequate, just look at what Jesus said to the Rich Young Ruler....

Matt 19.16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

You are confusing how Faith saved before or under the system of Law and how Faith is actually tied to Christ's system of justification. Anything prior to the cross of Christ relies on faith that lacks a system of final justification unless it is looking beyond it to Christ's system of justification--a system relying not on self-justification, but on trust in God's mercy.

The Law did not rely on man's record of righteousness, which was flawed. Rather, it relied upon God's mercy. It was not a self-validating system, but rather, a precursor to a new system, which also relied on God's mercy, but added a means of final justification, including Christ's unflawed record of righteousness.

If you remain tied to the Old Covenant system, whether exercising Morality or following Ceremonial Law, you are not relying on Christ's record of righteousness, but on your own flawed record of righteousness. As such, you remain unjustified in the final sense.

Faith is able to look forward to Christ's system of justification even before it is realized. This does not validate pre-Christian Law--rather, it validates Faith as a precursor to the system of Christian justificaiton. It only validates the Law of Moses as an expression of faith that looks beyond the Law to something better.

Faith is ever a system that relies upon God's mercy. Whether a sinner as yet unjustified in the OT era or a sinner justified in the Christian era, faith relies upon God's mercy. It does not depend on the human record of righteousness, which always falls short of final justification. It always looks beyond man's record of righteousness, no matter how valid it is, because any sin will disqualify us. The Law pointed this out, and Christ himself pointed it out.

The presence of faith under the Old Covenant system, or under the Law of Moses, does not validate it as a means of final justification. It only validates the faith that looks necessarily beyond it to a means of final justification through Christ's record and gift of righteousness.

This just proves my point that there are two senses of God's Law, the general sense requiring obedience to God under all covenants and the technical application of Moses' Law, which involved both Moral Law and Ceremonial Law. What was "added" was the Law of Moses. The "transgression" that previously existed was sin against the general sense of God's Law, requiring obedience under any occasion.

You seem to wish to divide Ceremonial Law from Moral Law as two distinct systems? They aren't. The Law of Moses was strictly Old Covenant. And even though it contained Moral Law, that did not validate the Old Covenant system as a final means of justification.

Let's go back to square one and get of understanding.....We will see there were two laws given to Moses, they were the commandments and the sacrificial law. Watch how they worked together. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2) The law in the scriptures above is the commandments.

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's skip down to the 27th verse and take a look at the second law (which is the sacrificial law).

And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. (Leviticus 4:27-30)

When the common people sinned through ignorance and it came to their knowledge, what did they have to do? They brought an offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for their sin which they had committed, then the priest would offer the animal to the Lord. Think about this for a moment. If an animal was killed for a person that committed sin, what will happen to us today if we a trespass against the Lord?


Now we see how the sacrificial law was used when a person broke a commandment unintentionally.


Let's go into Paul's writings and take another look at both of these laws. We will go into the Book of Galatians chapter 3. This is one of the chapters that the majority of Christian preachers use to do away with the Lord's commandments. Now, let's read carefully!


Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)


Take heed to what Paul's says above, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions." What is transgression? Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4) Transgression is braking of the commandments. What law was added because of the braking of the law? The sacrificial law! Paul is simply asking these Gentiles, "why perform the sacrificial law? It was added because of sin until the seed should come. Who is the seed?


Let's back up in this chapter and find out.


Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ. (Galatians 3:16) Who is the SEED? CHRIST! So, this law was added (which is the sacrificial law) until Christ came. What was the sacrificial law used for until Christ came? Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:24)


The sacrificial law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Before we continue, we must clear one thing up. Are we justified by faith alone? Let's see. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31) What law is established? Certainly not the sacrificial law, we have seen above that it was added because of transgression until the Seed came (which was Christ). The Royal law to be established forever which are the Ten Lords commandments!

 

[marks]

The sacrificial law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Before we continue, we must clear one thing up. Are we justified by faith alone? Let's see. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31) What law is established? Certainly not the sacrificial law, we have seen above that it was added because of transgression until the Seed came (which was Christ). The Royal law to be established forever which are the Ten Lords commandments!

Faith establishes the Law because God requires faith for you to be saved, since the Law condemns you to death.

The law is establish by faith because the requirement for faith validates that you are only condemned under the Law.

You need to understand that once someone becomes a lawbreaker by transgressing the Law, that is a permanent condition, you are a Lawbreaker. So it is required that you truth in Christ to be saved. Because it's a truth - the Law condemned you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully.

This is not true, you need to study this more.

Liars and thieves for instance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Let's go back to square one and get of understanding.....We will see there were two laws given to Moses, they were the commandments and the sacrificial law.

No, if you're talking about the 10 Commandments, the commandments the the Law of Sacrifice were never divided from the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments and the Law of Sacrifices are merely subsets of the same Law of Moses. The Commandments were a kind of short version of the entire Law, distilling the entire Law as the moral equivalent of loving God and loving our neighbor. To properly love God one must obey God's command to Sacrifice as well as obey God's command to treat others fairly.

Watch how they worked together. And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2) The law in the scriptures above is the commandments.

Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's skip down to the 27th verse and take a look at the second law (which is the sacrificial law).

My own opinion is that the idea of "willful sin" refers to deliberate and reckless rebellion against God. How can one be forgiven if his intention is to oppose God and turn to other gods? Many sins are committed with the knowledge they are wrong, but they can repent and acknowledge that they were shortsighted, and thus not truly "willful." There was temptation and pressure to capitulate to the lusts of the flesh.

Think about this for a moment. If an animal was killed for a person that committed sin, what will happen to us today if we a trespass against the Lord?

We reap trouble when we sow to the flesh. We sin every day, but only big sins reap big consequences. God is merciful, patient, and kind. He does not in any way excuse sin, but He understands our weakness, and had His Son die for our sins.

Let's go into Paul's writings and take another look at both of these laws. We will go into the Book of Galatians chapter 3. This is one of the chapters that the majority of Christian preachers use to do away with the Lord's commandments. Now, let's read carefully!

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)

This verse did not in any way support applying the Law of Moses under the New Covenant! Paul was speaking of the purpose of the Law being preparatory for the New Covenant of Christ and expiring at that point.

Take heed to what Paul's says above, "Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions." What is transgression? Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4) Transgression is braking of the commandments. What law was added because of the braking of the law? The sacrificial law! Paul is simply asking these Gentiles, "why perform the sacrificial law? It was added because of sin until the seed should come. Who is the seed?

I already answered this. There is a general command implicit in God's creation of Man, requiring us to obey God and to live in His image and likeness. This command was given apart from the Law of Moses which came much later in the time of national Israel.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds, as of many; but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ. (Galatians 3:16) Who is the SEED? CHRIST! So, this law was added (which is the sacrificial law) until Christ came. What was the sacrificial law used for until Christ came? Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (Galatians 3:24)

Yes, as I said the Law of Moses was preparatory for Christ's Covenant.

The sacrificial law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Before we continue, we must clear one thing up. Are we justified by faith alone? Let's see. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31) What law is established? Certainly not the sacrificial law, we have seen above that it was added because of transgression until the Seed came (which was Christ). The Royal law to be established forever which are the Ten Lords commandments!

Paul was speaking of establishing the testimony of the Law *before* Christ came. The Law was validated "as a schoolmater" leading to Christ. You have a very warped view of interpreting Paul, in my estimation. I hope you will reconsider.