Christianity is NOT Derived From Judaism

[Lambano]

He was of the tribe of Judah, so yes, He was a Jew.

Okay; I'll retell this story:

We had a guest preacher one Sunday. Reverend Rodriguez was a Puerto Rican - American from the New York City melting pot. He told a story about the time when, as a teen, he got into some kind of a disagreement with a Jewish shopkeeper. The argument grew heated, and the young Rodriguez called the man a "Dirty Jew". Instead of getting angry, the shopkeeper looked sadly at Rodriguez and said quietly, "Son, do you know that your God is Jewish?"

This flabbergasted the young man, and when he got home, he asked his mother, "Mom, Mom! Mr. Goldberg said Jesus is Jewish! Is this true?"

His mother replied, "Of course not! Everyone knows Jesus is Puerto Rican!"

 

[Wick Stick]

Is it a historical fact that Jesus was a Jew?

Yes, of course

 

[Wick Stick]

Incorrect. There are today Messianic Jews and there are more such pro-Christ Jews now than ever before.

Orthodox Judaism looks down on Messianics; in some cases it doesn't even recognize them as Jewish. Have you never spoken to anyone who is actually Jewish?

 

[Lambano]

Orthodox Judaism looks down on Messianics; in some cases it doesn't even recognize them as Jewish. Have you never spoken to anyone who is actually Jewish?

I have, and unfortunately, they confirmed what you said.

Worse still is when Christians also refuse to welcome them as brothers and sisters because they're "Judaized". They're considered neither Jews nor Christians. I've heard stories about that too. Sad.

 

[Wick Stick]

I found Pamela Eisenbaum's Jewish insights to be helpful. The connection between the Judaism of the Biblical period, the Second Temple period, the Rabbinic/Talmud period, the Medieval period, and the Early Modern and Modern eras are three keystones: Monotheism, Covenant, and Torah. The rabbinical writings are studies on how to faithfully live out Biblical principles even when living under Persian, Greek, Roman, Islamic, and yes, Christian domination. In that respect, the goal is admirable, even if you disagree with the actual implementation.

Except that wasn't the only goal. A clear goal of that period was to eliminate any reading of the Tanakh that pointed to Christ.

Jesus positioned Himself a corrective agent against the Judaism of the Sadducees and Pharisees. In that light, Jesus's disagreements with the Pharisees are not about the goal but rather intramural arguments among rabbis about Covenant implementation. The charges of "practicing sorcery, inciting Israel to idolatry, and leading them astray" (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a) combined with the power dynamics among the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Roman occupying forces got Him executed. I don't doubt that most rabbis today still consider Jesus a first-century heretic.

For the purposes of this thread, though, defining Jesus over and against Second Temple and later Rabbinic Judaism still makes Christianity a Jewish derivative by definition.

That isn't what Jesus said He was doing. He identified His target audience as "the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

Jesus spent most of His ministry in... Galilee, Perea, the Decapolis, Trans-Jordan, and even Samaria... all the areas that once constituted the Northern kingdom. When He did go to Judea, it was for the feasts, and He hid the fact of his travel there.

Jesus was re-constituting Israel - the Northern kingdom - the sheep of the "other fold." He set 12 disciples over 12 tribes. He did so in fulfillment of the prophecies of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, who say that Israel - which no longer existed as a separate people in their day - would be resurrected.

And here's the kicker - He was baptizing Jews. He was converting them OUT of 2nd-temple Judaism, to be part of a re-unified Israel.

 

[Wrangler]

That isn't what Jesus said He was doing. He identified His target audience as "the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

And in your estimation, this business of Jesus has NOTHING to do with the Jewish people?

 

[Lambano]

Jesus was re-constituting Israel - the Northern kingdom - the sheep of the "other fold."

Didn't see that plot twist coming!

 

[Wick Stick]

And in your estimation, this business of Jesus has NOTHING to do with the Jewish people?

The problem is that when you say "Jewish" and when I say "Jewish" we're talking about two different things.

Jesus' mission of resurrecting/reconstituting Israel has SOMETHING to do with the tribe of Judah, which is one of the twelve tribes. It is just as Jeremiah 31 says - Israel and Judah needed re-uniting.

 

[Wick Stick]

Didn't see that plot twist coming!

Nobody seems to, and I'm not sure why. The OT prophets tell us in pretty clear language it's going to happen. Jesus tells us He's doing it.

 

[Wrangler]

That isn't what Jesus said He was doing. He identified His target audience as "the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

And in your estimation, this business of Jesus has NOTHING to do with the Jewish people?

The problem is that when you say "Jewish" and when I say "Jewish" we're talking about two different things.

NOT AN ANSWER. Yes or no; in your estimation, Jesus (not you) - Jesus’ target audience of the lost sheep of Israel has nothing to do with the Jews?

A. Yes, the lost sheep of Israel includes the Jews.​

B. No, the lost sheep of Israel, which was Jesus’ target audience had NOTHING to do with the Jews In ANY manner, shape or form.​

Friend, your claim is false. It’s not that you and I are using a word in using different senses, it’s you and Jesus, you and the entirety of the Bible (not just one Old Testament book) are using different senses of the word.

 

[amigo de christo]

How is it that you do not know?

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God

 

[amigo de christo]

NOT AN ANSWER. Yes or no; in your estimation, Jesus (not you) - Jesus’ target audience of the lost sheep of Israel has nothing to do with the Jews?

A. Yes, the lost sheep of Israel includes the Jews.​

B. No, the lost sheep of Israel, which was Jesus’ target audience had NOTHING to do with the Jews In ANY manner, shape or form.​

Friend, your claim is false. It’s not that you and I are using a word in using different senses, it’s you and Jesus, you and the entirety of the Bible (not just one Old Testament book) are using different senses of the word.

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God

GUESS who JESUS said this too Wrangler . The jews who beleived NOT on HIM .
so you gonna call JESUS anti semtic .

 

[Davy]

Which is another sense of the word than merely offspring of Abraham’s one grandchild, correct?

Yes, as it applied to even foreigners that lived in Judea who became religious Jews, like king Herod who was an Idumean of the seed of Esau. The Canaanite bondservants which Israel was not able to destroy per God's commandment became religious Jews. Even the Kenites of the land of Canaan who became in charge of keep the letters of God's Word became Jews.

But when Apostle Paul referred to the idea of a Jew in the spiritual sense per Romans 2:29, he was referring to one of the Seed of the Woman born of the tribes Judah, Benjamin, or Levi that was in good standing with both The Father and The Son. Like Paul himself, a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin and chosen by Christ Jesus for service in The Gospel. Paul used that to point to all... believers in Christ Jesus in good standing, including the Gentile believer.

 

[Wick Stick]

NOT AN ANSWER. Yes or no; in your estimation, Jesus (not you) - Jesus’ target audience of the lost sheep of Israel has nothing to do with the Jews?

A. Yes, the lost sheep of Israel includes the Jews.​

B. No, the lost sheep of Israel, which was Jesus’ target audience had NOTHING to do with the Jews In ANY manner, shape or form.​

Friend, your claim is false. It’s not that you and I are using a word in using different senses, it’s you and Jesus, you and the entirety of the Bible (not just one Old Testament book) are using different senses of the word.

I provided an answer in the other half of my post, which you didn't bother to quote. Here, it's right here:

> Jesus' mission of resurrecting/reconstituting Israel has SOMETHING to do with the tribe of Judah, which is one of the twelve tribes. It is just
> as Jeremiah 31 says - Israel and Judah needed re-uniting.

And what does that look like?

> [Jesus] was baptizing Jews. He was converting them OUT of 2nd-temple Judaism, to be part of a re-unified Israel.

Pharisee-Judaism is NOT Old-Testament-Judaism.

Christianity is not a DERIVATIVE of OT-Judaism, it IS OT-Judaism, restored against the corruptions that were stacked on top of it by the Pharisees.

Pharisee-Judaism is a derivative of OT-Judaism... but mind you it's one that inverts or denies some of the most important bits. It removes prophecy, and denies its Messiah.

 

[Dale Oaks]

The title of Jew is what those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" called themselves (per the Jewish historian Josephus). That was the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi ONLY. It originates from the name of the tribe of Judah. Apostle Paul was a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin and not Judah. He was a Jew because all those living in Judea took that name Jew. It never applied to the northern ten tribes.

The religion of Judaism is about the 'traditions' the Jews that went captive to Babylon created. That's where their Babylonian Talmud they still follow to this day came from. It is corruption, and Jesus rebuked their traditions of men. So to claim Christianity is based on Judaism is like saying the Jews did not reject Jesus and did not have Him crucified.

Many brethren are blind to this fact, just as many preachers are too, and keep pushing the lie that the word Jew means all Israelites when it does not, not per God's Word it doesn't, nor does it represent an offshoot of Christianity. Judaism represents the corruptions that came out the Jews ("house of Judah") that fell away from God at the time and God brought the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, upon them and removed them to Babylon.

Only a small remnant of them returned to Jerusalem afterwards, ALONG WITH THE EVIL BASKET OF FIGS, the "tares" of Jesus' parable of Matthew 13 which the devil sowed. This is why Jesus issued the warning that the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat, which is the seat of the law and control over the people. The scribes were of the people called Kenites of the land of Canaan and were in charge of keeping the letters of God's Word, and the Pharisees Jesus was pointing to were leftovers of the Canaanites which Israel was not able to destroy per God's commandment.

So you are not talking to someone who is Biblically illiterate about what Judaism represents, even today. Silly Biblically illiterate preachers can claim Christianity is derived from Judaism all they want but it is a FLAT LIE. And MY Lord Jesus Christ showed it as such.

Davy, hello.

You say that Jews today are still following the Babylonian Talmud. I'd like to point out that there are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian Talumud and the Jerusalem Talmud.

"There are actually two versions of the Talmud.
One is known as the Babylonian Talmud (Bavli),
and the other is known as either the Palestinian or
Jerusalem Talmud (Yerushalmi). The names
reflect their origins; although they share a great
deal of material, the Bavli largely represents the
work of the great academies of BABYLONIA, while
the Yerushalmi reflects the discussions at the
academies at various cities in PALESTINE. The
Babylonian Talmud was finalized around 500 C.E.,
approximately 100 years after the JERUSALEM Tal-
mud."

Jewish Encyclopedia p. 510

 

[Wick Stick]

NOT AN ANSWER. Yes or no; in your estimation, Jesus (not you) - Jesus’ target audience of the lost sheep of Israel has nothing to do with the Jews?

A. Yes, the lost sheep of Israel includes the Jews.​

B. No, the lost sheep of Israel, which was Jesus’ target audience had NOTHING to do with the Jews In ANY manner, shape or form.​

Neither option is entirely correct.

The Jews were never "lost sheep.". The Northern kingdom, Israel, became "lost sheep" when the nation was destroyed by the Assyrians. The Southern kingdom, Judah, was spared by God, and never became "lost."

Jesus identifies TWO flocks of sheep as belonging to Him:

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

One fold is Judah; the other is Israel. Israel were "lost sheep" and "the prodigal son." Judah were sheep, too, but they stayed in the pen and were not "lost." They are the prodigal's older brother as well.

I think, like many people, you have read the Old Testament as the story of one country. It's the story of TWO countries. If you haven't comprehended that, you haven't understood the Bible.

 

[Wick Stick]

Davy, hello.

You say that Jews today are still following the Babylonian Talmud. I'd like to point out that there are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian Talumud and the Jerusalem Talmud.

"There are actually two versions of the Talmud.
One is known as the Babylonian Talmud (Bavli),
and the other is known as either the Palestinian or
Jerusalem Talmud (Yerushalmi). The names
reflect their origins; although they share a great
deal of material, the Bavli largely represents the
work of the great academies of BABYLONIA, while
the Yerushalmi reflects the discussions at the
academies at various cities in PALESTINE. The
Babylonian Talmud was finalized around 500 C.E.,
approximately 100 years after the JERUSALEM Tal-
mud."

Jewish Encyclopedia p. 510

Zechariah 5:7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this [is] a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah. 8 And he said, This [is] wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof. 9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind [was] in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven. 10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah? 11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.

 

[Davy]

Davy, hello.

You say that Jews today are still following the Babylonian Talmud. I'd like to point out that there are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian Talumud and the Jerusalem Talmud.

"There are actually two versions of the Talmud.
One is known as the Babylonian Talmud (Bavli),
and the other is known as either the Palestinian or
Jerusalem Talmud (Yerushalmi). The names
reflect their origins; although they share a great
deal of material, the Bavli largely represents the
work of the great academies of BABYLONIA, while
the Yerushalmi reflects the discussions at the
academies at various cities in PALESTINE. The
Babylonian Talmud was finalized around 500 C.E.,
approximately 100 years after the JERUSALEM Tal-
mud."

Jewish Encyclopedia p. 510

Their traditions, oral tradition, goes back a lot further though.

And many of its ideas simply are NOT written in God's Word. So any historical point of when their ideas were written down becomes moot.

 

[Dale Oaks]

The title of Jew is what those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" called themselves (per the Jewish historian Josephus). That was the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi ONLY. It originates from the name of the tribe of Judah. Apostle Paul was a Jew born of the tribe of Benjamin and not Judah. He was a Jew because all those living in Judea took that name Jew. It never applied to the northern ten tribes.

The religion of Judaism is about the 'traditions' the Jews that went captive to Babylon created. That's where their Babylonian Talmud they still follow to this day came from. It is corruption, and Jesus rebuked their traditions of men. So to claim Christianity is based on Judaism is like saying the Jews did not reject Jesus and did not have Him crucified.

Many brethren are blind to this fact, just as many preachers are too, and keep pushing the lie that the word Jew means all Israelites when it does not, not per God's Word it doesn't, nor does it represent an offshoot of Christianity. Judaism represents the corruptions that came out the Jews ("house of Judah") that fell away from God at the time and God brought the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, upon them and removed them to Babylon.

Only a small remnant of them returned to Jerusalem afterwards, ALONG WITH THE EVIL BASKET OF FIGS, the "tares" of Jesus' parable of Matthew 13 which the devil sowed. This is why Jesus issued the warning that the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat, which is the seat of the law and control over the people. The scribes were of the people called Kenites of the land of Canaan and were in charge of keeping the letters of God's Word, and the Pharisees Jesus was pointing to were leftovers of the Canaanites which Israel was not able to destroy per God's commandment.

So you are not talking to someone who is Biblically illiterate about what Judaism represents, even today. Silly Biblically illiterate preachers can claim Christianity is derived from Judaism all they want but it is a FLAT LIE. And MY Lord Jesus Christ showed it as such.

Davy: “Only a small remnant of them returned to Jerusalem afterwards, ALONG WITH THE EVIL BASKET OF FIGS, the "tares" of Jesus' parable of Matthew 13 which the devil sowed.”

Here you seem to be starting from a lopsided interpretation of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. You assume that it is about Jews when it is actually about the whole human race. The tares are the unsaved. Even among the descendants of Jacob, there was worship of false gods and idols long before the Babylonian exile. Those worshipping pagan gods must be counted among the tares.

 

[Davy]

Davy: “Only a small remnant of them returned to Jerusalem afterwards, ALONG WITH THE EVIL BASKET OF FIGS, the "tares" of Jesus' parable of Matthew 13 which the devil sowed.”

Here you seem to be starting from a lopsided interpretation of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares. You assume that it is about Jews when it is actually about the whole human race. The tares are the unsaved. Even among the descendants of Jacob, there was worship of false gods and idols long before the Babylonian exile. Those worshipping pagan gods must be counted among the tares.

I well know about the "tares" and the history of the crept in unawares among Israel.

My main point hasn't really been about that though. It instead is how the crept in unawares, i..e., the 'tares', CLAIM TO BE JEWS of the seed, and they hide among the "house of Judah", when they are not of the seed of Israel at all. I'm not the one who first declared this, Lord Jesus did...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Thus there are TRUE JEWS born of the seed of Israel, and then there are FALSE JEWS not of the seed that only claim... to be Jews of the seed, like those in John 8 which Jesus rebuked, yet somehow the Scripture shows Jesus agreed with their claim that Abraham was their father.

Are the "tares" also among those of the children of Israel of the ten scattered tribes? Yes, the evil basket ones are among them scattered with the ten tribes also. But those of the "synagogue of Satan" is about the false Jews that hide among the House of Judah mainly, and sit in Moses' seat of the law.