Christianity is NOT Derived From Judaism

[Lambano]

He was of the tribe of Judah, so yes, He was a Jew.

Okay; I'll retell this story:

We had a guest preacher one Sunday. Reverend Rodriguez was a Puerto Rican - American from the New York City melting pot. He told a story about the time when, as a teen, he got into some kind of a disagreement with a Jewish shopkeeper. The argument grew heated, and the young Rodriguez called the man a "Dirty Jew". Instead of getting angry, the shopkeeper looked sadly at Rodriguez and said quietly, "Son, do you know that your God is Jewish?"

This flabbergasted the young man, and when he got home, he asked his mother, "Mom, Mom! Mr. Goldberg said Jesus is Jewish! Is this true?"

His mother replied, "Of course not! Everyone knows Jesus is Puerto Rican!"

 

[Wick Stick]

Is it a historical fact that Jesus was a Jew?

Yes, of course

 

[Wick Stick]

Incorrect. There are today Messianic Jews and there are more such pro-Christ Jews now than ever before.

Orthodox Judaism looks down on Messianics; in some cases it doesn't even recognize them as Jewish. Have you never spoken to anyone who is actually Jewish?

 

[Lambano]

Orthodox Judaism looks down on Messianics; in some cases it doesn't even recognize them as Jewish. Have you never spoken to anyone who is actually Jewish?

I have, and unfortunately, they confirmed what you said.

Worse still is when Christians also refuse to welcome them as brothers and sisters because they're "Judaized". They're considered neither Jews nor Christians. I've heard stories about that too. Sad.

 

[Wick Stick]

I found Pamela Eisenbaum's Jewish insights to be helpful. The connection between the Judaism of the Biblical period, the Second Temple period, the Rabbinic/Talmud period, the Medieval period, and the Early Modern and Modern eras are three keystones: Monotheism, Covenant, and Torah. The rabbinical writings are studies on how to faithfully live out Biblical principles even when living under Persian, Greek, Roman, Islamic, and yes, Christian domination. In that respect, the goal is admirable, even if you disagree with the actual implementation.

Except that wasn't the only goal. A clear goal of that period was to eliminate any reading of the Tanakh that pointed to Christ.

Jesus positioned Himself a corrective agent against the Judaism of the Sadducees and Pharisees. In that light, Jesus's disagreements with the Pharisees are not about the goal but rather intramural arguments among rabbis about Covenant implementation. The charges of "practicing sorcery, inciting Israel to idolatry, and leading them astray" (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a) combined with the power dynamics among the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Roman occupying forces got Him executed. I don't doubt that most rabbis today still consider Jesus a first-century heretic.

For the purposes of this thread, though, defining Jesus over and against Second Temple and later Rabbinic Judaism still makes Christianity a Jewish derivative by definition.

That isn't what Jesus said He was doing. He identified His target audience as "the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

Jesus spent most of His ministry in... Galilee, Perea, the Decapolis, Trans-Jordan, and even Samaria... all the areas that once constituted the Northern kingdom. When He did go to Judea, it was for the feasts, and He hid the fact of his travel there.

Jesus was re-constituting Israel - the Northern kingdom - the sheep of the "other fold." He set 12 disciples over 12 tribes. He did so in fulfillment of the prophecies of Jeremiah and Ezekiel, who say that Israel - which no longer existed as a separate people in their day - would be resurrected.

And here's the kicker - He was baptizing Jews. He was converting them OUT of 2nd-temple Judaism, to be part of a re-unified Israel.

 

[Wrangler]

That isn't what Jesus said He was doing. He identified His target audience as "the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

And in your estimation, this business of Jesus has NOTHING to do with the Jewish people?

 

[Lambano]

Jesus was re-constituting Israel - the Northern kingdom - the sheep of the "other fold."

Didn't see that plot twist coming!

 

[Wick Stick]

And in your estimation, this business of Jesus has NOTHING to do with the Jewish people?

The problem is that when you say "Jewish" and when I say "Jewish" we're talking about two different things.

Jesus' mission of resurrecting/reconstituting Israel has SOMETHING to do with the tribe of Judah, which is one of the twelve tribes. It is just as Jeremiah 31 says - Israel and Judah needed re-uniting.

 

[Wick Stick]

Didn't see that plot twist coming!

Nobody seems to, and I'm not sure why. The OT prophets tell us in pretty clear language it's going to happen. Jesus tells us He's doing it.

 

[Wrangler]

That isn't what Jesus said He was doing. He identified His target audience as "the lost sheep of the House of Israel."

And in your estimation, this business of Jesus has NOTHING to do with the Jewish people?

The problem is that when you say "Jewish" and when I say "Jewish" we're talking about two different things.

NOT AN ANSWER. Yes or no; in your estimation, Jesus (not you) - Jesus’ target audience of the lost sheep of Israel has nothing to do with the Jews?

A. Yes, the lost sheep of Israel includes the Jews.​

B. No, the lost sheep of Israel, which was Jesus’ target audience had NOTHING to do with the Jews In ANY manner, shape or form.​

Friend, your claim is false. It’s not that you and I are using a word in using different senses, it’s you and Jesus, you and the entirety of the Bible (not just one Old Testament book) are using different senses of the word.