I responded to your quote & will again if I decide to do so.
Are we going to get back to discussing Scripture now ?
How many coming of Jesus?
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Are we going to get back to discussing Scripture now ?
Davy
Well-Known Member
It doesn't say anything in the PAST TENSE like you are wrongly suggesting.
Stick with the Scripture as written, and try not to insert your own doctrine or dogma of another into the Scripture.
Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 showed only about the event of Christ's future coming to gather His Church, and Paul showed it will involve the gathering of two separate groups of saints, the saints that had already died which must be resurrected first and Jesus brings with Him when He descends to earth, and then the saints still alive that will be "caught up" to Jesus and those resurrected saints. STOP. That's as far as Apostle Paul goes with the event of Christ's future coming and gathering of the Church in that specific 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter.
Yet before Paul, one of God's Old Testament prophets, Zechariah, was given prophecy about Christ's future coming with all His saints returning to the Mount of Olives, and that is written in Zechariah 14. It even says Christ's feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives, which is upon this earth, and there a great valley will be formed, as Jesus brings all His saints with Him there. Acts 1 confirms this spot for Jesus' future return, as the two angels mentioned how Jesus shall return "in like manner" as He ascended into Heaven (upon a cloud).
Teach yourself first because you're doing the very same thing you accuse me of.
Quote the scripture where is written, He descends to earth.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I have to say also, some brethren are wrongly being taught to treat Bible Scripture like with the symbology, metaphors, and expressions it also gives, as instead like 'speculating'.
On another thread when I brought what Lord Jesus said that you don't put the "new wine" into "old bottles" lest they break, I got wrongly rebuked for interpreting the "new wine" to mean understanding by The Holy Spirit in God's written Word, i.e., the idea of being given spiritual eyes to see, and spiritual ears to hear, which Lord Jesus also gave as a metaphor for understanding His Word.
I even gave another example when Lord Jesus told His disciples to beware of the leaven of Herod and the Pharisees, and His disciples thought Jesus was saying that because they brought no literal bread with them to eat (See Matthew 16:6-12; Mark 8:15-21).
Understanding the level Lord Jesus did with His use of analogy, parable, allegory, and metaphor, is a normal tool that appears in all... languages. God's written Word is no exception to that. A problem does come though in translation between languages, as some idioms or expressions do not translate well to other languages. However, our English Bible translation still does a pretty good job of translating those things. And they are definitely NOT SPECULATIONS. They are teaching tools, and God in His Word uses them too, a LOT!
HOW TO KNOW:
How can we know when we are rightly interpreting a parable, metaphor, allegory, or analogy, etc., given in God's written Word?
By two or more witnesses in His written Word.
In the warning about metaphorical bread leaven that Jesus said to His disciples, per Mark 8:17-18, Lord Jesus brings up the matter of asking His disciples do they not have 'eyes to see, and ears to hear', and hardening of their hearts (in understanding), which Jesus explained in the Matthew 13 Scripture. Yet in that Mark 8 example, nothing is said about the His disciples having finally understood that He was not talking about literal bread. But in the Matthew 16:6-12 version, it shows they did finally understand Jesus was pointing to false doctrine as the "leaven" of Herod and the Pharisees, and further, that the many number of baskets of fragments gathered after the miracle of the original loaves and fishes represent that false "leaven" added to God's Word.
If you understand how analogy, parable, metaphor, allegory, etc., works in language, then you should easily recognize when one is being given, and realize what it is pointing to is not simple idle speculation, but a Message directly from The LORD.
The Pharisees tempted Lord Jesus by asking Him why His disciples do not fast, do not make prayers, but Christ's disciples instead "eat and drink". Is there even a metaphor in that question by the Pharisees? Yep! The idea of Christ's disciples "eat and drink" instead of fasting and praying reveals a time of joy and happiness, making merry. Lord Jesus then tells them why they make merry at that time with Christ among them...
Luke 5:33-39
33 And they said unto Him, "Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but Thine eat and drink?"
34 And He said unto them, "Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
Another symbolic metaphor there too maybe? Yep! The Bridegroom; Lord Jesus uses that position for Himself, and it's from Old Testament analogy like Isaiah 54 and New Testament analogy by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11, that Christ is our True Husband. Metaphors all over the place in God's Word! Do you think our Heavenly Father intended for us to read and study all His Word in order to put all those metaphors together in the mind in order to rightly interpret them? Yes! Leave out just one of the Biblical versions that use a metaphor and you might get a whole different interpretation, a wrong one.
35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
More analogies by Lord Jesus? Yep! In the above, that idea of The Bridegroom (Christ Jesus) being taken away from His disciples is pointing to Christ's crucifixion that would happen later in their time. Then... "shall they fast in those days", which Jesus uses as a metaphor for not being with His disciples anymore. And Jesus said that He made known to His disciples "all things" (John 15:15). Thus that idea of fasting Lord Jesus uses for His disciples not having that once Jesus was delivered up to be crucified. Yet Lord Jesus told them He would send The Holy Spirit Comforter, and He would teach them all things, and remind them of all He told them (John 14:26). So now Jesus uses the idea of 'fasting' for having, or not having understanding in His Word given directly by Him in their presence.
36 And He spake also a parable unto them; "No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Then Lord Jesus gives an analogy of His Word to His disciples when He was literally in their presence, and later by The Holy Spirit, using the idea of putting a new piece of cloth on an old garment. What can happen when that is done? The new piece of cloth might shrink while the old cloth will have already shrunk, showing a mismatch of the two fabrics.
37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Same kind of metaphor or analogy about understanding His Word, the "new wine" representing the understanding of "all things" Jesus showed them, and that The Holy Spirit Comforter would remind them about once Jesus was taken away from them.
In that time of history, they didn't store newly fermenting wine in bottles. They used wine skins. Did Lord Jesus give yet another metaphor with that "bottles" idea? Yep! Old wine skins cannot handle newly fermenting wine, because new wine needs room to expand and contract. The old dried out wine skins will burst open under the pressure. What did Lord Jesus use that "old bottles" metaphor to point to? He gives it again yet another way next...
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, "The old is better."
KJV
Wine that is aged tastes better than newly fermented wine. How would that apply to His Word and long-held doctrines and traditions taught by the scribes and Pharisees? The "new wine", representing what Lord Jesus was teaching His disciples, and thus also later through all His Apostles, could not be handled by many of those old doctrines and traditions of the Pharisees, which were represented as those "old bottles".
In comparison of this parable, it is also like Jesus' parable to beware of the "leaven" of the Pharisees and of Herod. In that parable, it is about the "leaven" being the adding... to the Pure Word of God (original loaves of bread and fishes that went out to the multitudes), represented by the "new wine" which Jesus was teaching.
Can this parable still be in effect for some Churches today? Yep! Lord Jesus in Revelation 2 and 3 revealed how five out of seven Churches in Asia had false doctrine being taught in them, and He commanded them to repent.
On another thread when I brought what Lord Jesus said that you don't put the "new wine" into "old bottles" lest they break, I got wrongly rebuked for interpreting the "new wine" to mean understanding by The Holy Spirit in God's written Word, i.e., the idea of being given spiritual eyes to see, and spiritual ears to hear, which Lord Jesus also gave as a metaphor for understanding His Word.
I even gave another example when Lord Jesus told His disciples to beware of the leaven of Herod and the Pharisees, and His disciples thought Jesus was saying that because they brought no literal bread with them to eat (See Matthew 16:6-12; Mark 8:15-21).
Understanding the level Lord Jesus did with His use of analogy, parable, allegory, and metaphor, is a normal tool that appears in all... languages. God's written Word is no exception to that. A problem does come though in translation between languages, as some idioms or expressions do not translate well to other languages. However, our English Bible translation still does a pretty good job of translating those things. And they are definitely NOT SPECULATIONS. They are teaching tools, and God in His Word uses them too, a LOT!
HOW TO KNOW:
How can we know when we are rightly interpreting a parable, metaphor, allegory, or analogy, etc., given in God's written Word?
By two or more witnesses in His written Word.
In the warning about metaphorical bread leaven that Jesus said to His disciples, per Mark 8:17-18, Lord Jesus brings up the matter of asking His disciples do they not have 'eyes to see, and ears to hear', and hardening of their hearts (in understanding), which Jesus explained in the Matthew 13 Scripture. Yet in that Mark 8 example, nothing is said about the His disciples having finally understood that He was not talking about literal bread. But in the Matthew 16:6-12 version, it shows they did finally understand Jesus was pointing to false doctrine as the "leaven" of Herod and the Pharisees, and further, that the many number of baskets of fragments gathered after the miracle of the original loaves and fishes represent that false "leaven" added to God's Word.
If you understand how analogy, parable, metaphor, allegory, etc., works in language, then you should easily recognize when one is being given, and realize what it is pointing to is not simple idle speculation, but a Message directly from The LORD.
The Pharisees tempted Lord Jesus by asking Him why His disciples do not fast, do not make prayers, but Christ's disciples instead "eat and drink". Is there even a metaphor in that question by the Pharisees? Yep! The idea of Christ's disciples "eat and drink" instead of fasting and praying reveals a time of joy and happiness, making merry. Lord Jesus then tells them why they make merry at that time with Christ among them...
Luke 5:33-39
33 And they said unto Him, "Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but Thine eat and drink?"
34 And He said unto them, "Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
Another symbolic metaphor there too maybe? Yep! The Bridegroom; Lord Jesus uses that position for Himself, and it's from Old Testament analogy like Isaiah 54 and New Testament analogy by Paul in 2 Corinthians 11, that Christ is our True Husband. Metaphors all over the place in God's Word! Do you think our Heavenly Father intended for us to read and study all His Word in order to put all those metaphors together in the mind in order to rightly interpret them? Yes! Leave out just one of the Biblical versions that use a metaphor and you might get a whole different interpretation, a wrong one.
35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
More analogies by Lord Jesus? Yep! In the above, that idea of The Bridegroom (Christ Jesus) being taken away from His disciples is pointing to Christ's crucifixion that would happen later in their time. Then... "shall they fast in those days", which Jesus uses as a metaphor for not being with His disciples anymore. And Jesus said that He made known to His disciples "all things" (John 15:15). Thus that idea of fasting Lord Jesus uses for His disciples not having that once Jesus was delivered up to be crucified. Yet Lord Jesus told them He would send The Holy Spirit Comforter, and He would teach them all things, and remind them of all He told them (John 14:26). So now Jesus uses the idea of 'fasting' for having, or not having understanding in His Word given directly by Him in their presence.
36 And He spake also a parable unto them; "No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Then Lord Jesus gives an analogy of His Word to His disciples when He was literally in their presence, and later by The Holy Spirit, using the idea of putting a new piece of cloth on an old garment. What can happen when that is done? The new piece of cloth might shrink while the old cloth will have already shrunk, showing a mismatch of the two fabrics.
37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Same kind of metaphor or analogy about understanding His Word, the "new wine" representing the understanding of "all things" Jesus showed them, and that The Holy Spirit Comforter would remind them about once Jesus was taken away from them.
In that time of history, they didn't store newly fermenting wine in bottles. They used wine skins. Did Lord Jesus give yet another metaphor with that "bottles" idea? Yep! Old wine skins cannot handle newly fermenting wine, because new wine needs room to expand and contract. The old dried out wine skins will burst open under the pressure. What did Lord Jesus use that "old bottles" metaphor to point to? He gives it again yet another way next...
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, "The old is better."
KJV
Wine that is aged tastes better than newly fermented wine. How would that apply to His Word and long-held doctrines and traditions taught by the scribes and Pharisees? The "new wine", representing what Lord Jesus was teaching His disciples, and thus also later through all His Apostles, could not be handled by many of those old doctrines and traditions of the Pharisees, which were represented as those "old bottles".
In comparison of this parable, it is also like Jesus' parable to beware of the "leaven" of the Pharisees and of Herod. In that parable, it is about the "leaven" being the adding... to the Pure Word of God (original loaves of bread and fishes that went out to the multitudes), represented by the "new wine" which Jesus was teaching.
Can this parable still be in effect for some Churches today? Yep! Lord Jesus in Revelation 2 and 3 revealed how five out of seven Churches in Asia had false doctrine being taught in them, and He commanded them to repent.
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