Why Christians Call Mary the Mother of God.

[Moonwood]

Physically, not spiritually.

The issue is not whether Mary is the mother of Christ's divine nature. Catholics do not claim that She is. Mothers do not give birth to natures; they give birth to persons. Jesus is one Person, not two persons. The Person Mary bore is the eternal Son of God incarnate.

For example, my mother did not give birth merely to my body while someone else gave birth to "the real me." She gave birth to me, the person. Likewise, Mary did not give birth to a human person separate from God the Son. She gave birth to the Person who is Jesus Christ. That is why Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, calls Mary:

"the mother of my Lord" (Luke 1:43).

And why the Church defended the title Mother of God (Theotokos) at Ephesus. The title protects the truth that the child Mary bore was truly God incarnate. So yes, Mary did not originate Christ's divine nature. No Christian claims that. But the Person She bore was God the Son made flesh. Therefore, calling Mary the Mother of God is a statement about who Jesus is, not about Mary being the source of God's divinity. In that sense, "Mother of God" means "Mother of the Incarnate God." The title is ultimately a confession about Christ's identity: the child born of Mary is God in the flesh.

 

[David1701]

You say:

"the prohibition is against making statues or images that have not been commanded by God."

But where does Exodus 20 actually say that? The reason I raised the cherubim is because your interpretation of Exodus 20 was that the commandment contains three separate prohibitions:

1. Do not make images.
2. Do not bow before images.
3. Do not serve images.

The problem is that God Himself later commands images to be made. So the commandment cannot be an absolute prohibition against making images. Now you've introduced a new qualification: images are permitted if God commands them. But that qualification is not found in Exodus 20:4-5 itself. It is a conclusion you're drawing in order to reconcile Exodus 20 with Exodus 25. I agree that Exodus and Leviticus must be read together. That's precisely why I do not interpret Exodus 20 as a blanket prohibition on religious images. The commandment begins:

"You shall have no other gods before Me."

That is the context. The concern is idolatry. God's later commands regarding the cherubim demonstrate that images themselves are not the issue. The issue is treating an image as a god or an idol. You then say:

"Making idols of, for example, Mary, to bow down before and to pray to her, is exactly the kind of idolatry that the prohibition is against."

But that is the point under debate, not something that has been demonstrated. Catholics do not believe Mary is a goddess. Catholics do not believe statues of Mary possess divine power. Catholics do not offer Mary the worship due to God alone. Simply referring to a statue of Mary as an "idol" assumes the very conclusion you're trying to prove. The real question is: what biblical principle distinguishes the cherubim, the Temple imagery, and other sacred images commanded by God from Catholic statues? If the answer is that the former were not treated as gods, then we agree. But that means the issue is not the existence of an image. The issue is whether the image is being worshipped as a god.

The command was, as I posted in my last post, "You shall not make images to yourselves."; in other words, you will not take it upon yourselves to make statues or images.

There are a few main differences between the items that God commanded to be made and the ones that Romanism makes:

1) God does not command, or give permission for, statues or images of Mary, Jesus, or "saints" (but often not in the biblical sense) to be made.

2) He does not command, or give permission for, people to bow down before such statues or images.

3) He does not command, or give permission for, people to pray to whomever or whatever those statues or images represent.

What do idolaters do? They bow down before statues, or images, of their idols and pray to whatever they represent, sometimes making offerings to them. Such actions are forms of worship...

 

[BreadOfLife]

Jesus never called “His Church”
catholic

And your point is??

God didn’t originally call the Israelites “Jews”. The FIRST place in the OT that we see this word is in 2 Kings 16:5-6. The word "Jew" comes from the Hebrew term “Yehudi”, referring to a member of the tribe of Judah.

We get the name “Catholic” from the NT:
Acts 9:31 talks about how the Early Church grew throughout the region. The language used here describes the Catholic Church:
“Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria experienced peace and thus was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and in the encouragement of the Holy Spirit, the church increased in numbers.”

The Catholic Church gets its name from the GREEK for “according to the whole” and “universal” - εκκλησια καθ ολης, which is pronounced “katah-holos”.

Εκκλησια (ekklesia) - A gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly; CHURCH
καθ (katah) - Through out, according to
ολης (holos) - All, whole, completely
"ekklesia Kata-holos" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

This name was already being widely-used by the beginning of the SECOND century.
Ignatius of Antioch - a disciple of the Apostle John, wrote in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans:
“Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the Apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, WHEREVER JESUS CHRIST IS PRESENT, THERE IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH "(Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Hmmmm -
“Follow your Bisop . . .”
“Oey your Clergy . . .”
“The sole EUCHARIST . . .”

Sounds pretty CATHOLIC to me . . .

Sect… ?

Yes – non-Catholic splinters are sects of the Original Tree that is the Catholic Church.

Like it or NOT – you’re all splinter-sects of the original Church. You wouldn’t even have a Bible if not the Catholic Church . . .

Amazing what happened when men learned to read!

Yup.

But unfortunately, they quickly became filled with human PRIDE and splintered into tens of thousands of sects – ALL believing that THEY had the “Truth”, based on the personal interpretations of their human founders . . .

Please identify the Letters and quoted excerpts from the Apostles Jesus appointed and Sent out to Preach…
specifically the TRADITIONS the Apostles practiced regarding Mary

Let’s start with John 21:25, which tells us about the countless things Jesus did and taught – too NUMEROUS to write down. Can YOU point to these things?
I didn’t think so . . .
- THAT’S why Jesus left us with a CHURCH to lead and teach His followers.
- THAT’S why the office of Apostle was a SUCCESSIVE one (Acts 1:20).
Acts 1:20
'Let his days be few; and let another take his OFFICE.'
The Greek word used here for “office” is actually Episkopay, which means BISHOPRIC.

- THAT’S why Jesus told the leaders of His Church and their successors –
Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

- THAT’S why He told them that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church to ALL TRUTH (John 16:12-15)
- THAT’S why He told the Apostles:
Matt 16:16-19, 18:15-18
WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven, and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

- THAT’S why Paul wrote about the fact that the TRADITIONS they taught were just as binding as the Scriptures, which HADN’T been written or compiled yet (2 Thess 2:15, 2 Thess. 3:6, 1 Cor. 11:2).

1 Cor. 12:27-30
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all APOSTLES, second PROPHETS, third TEACHERS, then MIRACLES, then gifts of HEALING, of helping, of GUIDANCE, and of different kinds of TONGUES. 29 ARE ALL APOSTLES? Are all PROPHETS? Are all TEACHERS? Do all work MIRACLES? 30 Do all have gifts of HEALING? Do all speak in TONGUES? Do all INTERPRET?

We ALL have a role in the Body of Christ – and they are NOT all the same . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

continued . . .

So…which Apostle… started the binding on earth…of
Statues of Mary?
Bowing before statues?
Crucifix trinkets?
Prayer Beads?
Calling on Mary ( after her bodily death? )
Calling out to departed souls or spirits?

Depends on WHICH Apostle or successor – and what century . . .

Okay Gospel according to Luke…
Where are Luke’s’ Traditions Regarding Mary?

The entire Bible is a collection of Traditions.
Read C-L-O-S-E-L-Y . . .

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, EITHER by an ORAL STATEMENT OR by a LETTER from us."

Sacred Tradition is handed down both ORALLY and by the WRITTEN word.

Yes… the Early Church …
Jesus called His Church…

Soooo – were they all damned to Hell because they didn’t READ the Scriptures and were taught by MEN?

Name Change..
Men hearing but not reading / verifying.

Yup. Faith comes from HEARING His Word - and NOT necessarily READING it . . .

Rom. 10:17
"So faith comes from HEARING, and HEARING through the word of Christ."

Printing presses…
Books scarce / expensive.
Men broadly illiterate for centuries.

Uh huh.
So MILLIONS never read a WORD of Scripture – but they HEAR the Word from the Church.

Thanks for making my point . . .

Inferences “the Catholic Church is Jesus’ only True Church”… (but not Taught by the Apostles)

As I already showed you above . . .

"ekklesia Kata-holos (Acts 9:31)" = CATHOLIC CHURCH.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Ug, The notion of the Church as catholic (universal) is older than the formal New Testament canon. “Catholic” simply means “according to the whole”—the Church in its entirety, not a later institutional brand. By definition the Church is the one Body of Christ: all believers united not merely across geography but across time (Eph 4:4–6; 1 Cor 12:12–13; Col 1:18).
One of the clearest scriptural pictures of this is the twenty-four elders around the throne in Revelation (Rev 4:4, 10; 5:8, 14; 11:16). The number twenty-four is never given an official apostolic commentary, yet twelve is unmistakably symbolic: the twelve patriarchs/tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles of the Lamb. The twenty-four elders therefore function as a vivid emblem of the Old Covenant people being joined to the New Covenant people in Christ—one royal priesthood, one holy nation, one Body (cf. Eph 2:11–22; 1 Pet 2:9–10).
That union was publicly inaugurated at Pentecost, when the Spirit was poured out and the Gospel began to go to the nations (Acts 2), and was then deliberately confirmed by the Jerusalem Council when the apostles and elders recognized that Gentiles were full members of the same covenant community without first becoming Jews (Acts 15).
The Church is catholic because she is theophoric — God-bearing. She is the one people created in His image in whom God Himself dwells by the Spirit, and who therefore carries His message, the Gospel of the Kingdom, to every nation and every generation (Matt 28:18–20; Eph 2:21–22; Rev 7:9).

---

 

[Taken]

But that's precisely my point. You are already recognizing that not every religious image is forbidden.

Att… @BreadOfLife

Your Point Omits
The One determining Factor —->
What God Says TO DO.
What God Says TO NOT DO.
And “doubt” you understand WHY.

You keep saying "Do NOT DO," but that's just repeating your conclusion.

No. That is acknowledging the Scriptural Fact.

I'm asking for the principle that allows the cherubim, the Ark decorations,…

Gods Word. Gods Command.
Accept or Reject, your FREEWILL.Catholics do not believe statues of Mary are gods.

Catholics do not believe statues possess divine power. Catholics do not worship statues.

Utter Nonsense…That you imply you have the super power to KNOW the Hearts Truth of over 1 Billion Catholics…to Speak for Each of them.

You're arguing:

1. We should pray to God alone.
2. We should pray for others.
3. Therefore we should not ask Mary for intercession.

Exactly.
Leave the Departed souls and spirits of men, in Heaven TO their Rest and Service to God…

We agree completely that prayer, worship, and petition are ultimately directed to God. Where we disagree is that you seem to assume that asking another member of Christ's body for prayer somehow becomes a rival act of prayer to that person.

The departed souls and spirits in Heaven ARE No longer a Person…!
Their Body’s are mortally DEAD.

You HAVE…a Living, Body, Soul, Spirit in INTERCESSOR IN Heaven, JESUS…That was Appointed For You.

Why promote Dismissing Him, Gods Provision…and instead… Condone, promote, argue Against Gods Way?

When I ask a friend, pastor, spouse, or church member to pray for me, I am not ceasing to pray to God. I am asking another believer to join me in prayer.

You are asking a Person…whole, intact, Body, Soul, Spirit TO Pray to God, with you, for you.

So when you repeatedly quote Matthew 6, you're proving something Catholics already believe: "Pray to your Father." Catholics do pray to the Father. Catholics pray to Christ. Catholics pray directly to God every day. The question under discussion has never been whether Christians should pray to God. The question is whether those alive in Christ in Heaven can pray for us.

Mary is not and other Departed saints ARE Not Appointed intercessors.
There is No Teaching the Departed Can Hear You or are To Know your Prayers or Answer your prayers.

You wrote:

"THEN... Praying 'TO' other than 'your Father', IS settled."

But that's the point you're assuming rather than proving.

Pray TO your Father…
If that be God or Satan… your FREEWILL.
It is Not Mary!

Asking Mary to pray for us is not the same thing as directing worship to Mary.

So What? Some do, some don’t… their Consequence!

I

The problem with this argument is that it seems to separate the human Jesus

Another of wayward word…
Jesus was NOT a Human…
He appeared AS a human man…

Humans come from their habitat… Earth…the Earth is the source of the Minerals / Water required to maintain a Humans Life…

Jesus’ Time on Earth was Not dependent on
Minerals, water, out of the Earth to maintain His Life ON Earth!

He could have walked about the Earth a thousand years and never ate or drank a thing …. He IS the Spiritual Life… regardless of WHAT body humans SAW, that God prepared For Him when He came into this world!

Go ahead, Exercise your FREEWILL to promote, defend, engage to Pray to dead humans and their departed souls and spirits…because apparently Catholic folklore “of they you call on”…supersede Christ Jesus’ intercessory Appointment.

Be Prepared;
The Judge will burn your corrupt works.

1 Tim 2:
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Moonwood]

What God Says TO DO.
What God Says TO NOT DO.

You say the determining factor is:

"What God Says TO DO. What God Says TO NOT DO."

But that's not actually a principle. That's just restating the question. My question is: what is it about the cherubim, the Ark imagery, and the Temple imagery that makes them permissible, while making a statue of Mary impermissible? Earlier you seemed to object to religious images themselves. But God commanded religious images. So now you appear to be saying that religious images are permissible when God commands them.

Fair enough.

But then where does God say that all other religious images are forbidden? Exodus 20 cannot mean "never make an image of anything in Heaven or on Earth," because God Himself later commands exactly that. Therefore, something more specific must be prohibited. The most natural reading is the one given by the context:

"You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

The issue is idolatry. That's why I'm continually asking what distinguishes the cherubim from a Catholic statue. If the answer is that the cherubim were not idols, were not gods, and were not worshipped as gods, then we agree. But that means the issue is not simply the existence of an image.

The departed souls and spirits in Heaven ARE No longer a Person…!

You say:

"The departed souls and spirits in Heaven ARE No longer a Person...!"

I don't see any biblical basis for that claim. Scripture consistently presents the departed righteous as remaining identifiable persons. Moses is still Moses at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-3). Elijah is still Elijah. The souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9-10 are conscious, speaking, remembering, and petitioning God. If a departed believer ceases to be a person, then Moses and Elijah are no longer Moses and Elijah, which is not how Scripture presents them. You also say:

"You HAVE... a Living, Body, Soul, Spirit in INTERCESSOR IN Heaven, JESUS..."

Catholics agree completely. The question is why Christ's unique intercession excludes all subordinate intercession when Scripture repeatedly commands Christians to intercede for one another. If Christ's role as intercessor prevents anyone else from interceding, then Paul's command to offer "supplications, prayers, intercessions" for others becomes difficult to explain. Catholics do not believe Mary replaces Christ's intercession. Catholics believe any intercession by Mary depends entirely upon Christ and participates in His work. You then say:

"Mary is not and other Departed saints ARE Not Appointed intercessors."

But where does Scripture teach that physical death removes a member of Christ's body from the ministry of intercession? That remains the unanswered question. Finally, you state:

"There is No Teaching the Departed Can Hear You or are To Know your Prayers or Answer your prayers."

But there is also no teaching that those alive with Christ are unable to know of earthly events, unable to pray for believers on earth, or unable to intercede before God. In fact, Scripture repeatedly depicts the righteous as alive and conscious after death. Moses and Elijah converse with Jesus. The souls under the altar cry out to God. Jesus says that God is "not the God of the dead, but of the living." So we're back to the same point:

Since you agree that Mary is alive with Christ in Heaven, where does Scripture teach that physical death prevents a member of Christ's body from praying for another member of Christ's body?

Because that conclusion is being asserted, but I still haven't seen it demonstrated from Scripture.

Another of wayward word…
Jesus was NOT a Human…
He appeared AS a human man…

Humans come from their habitat… Earth…the Earth is the source of the Minerals / Water required to maintain a Humans Life…

Jesus’ Time on Earth was Not dependent on
Minerals, water, out of the Earth to maintain His Life ON Earth!

He could have walked about the Earth a thousand years and never ate or drank a thing …. He IS the Spiritual Life… regardless of WHAT body humans SAW, that God prepared For Him when He came into this world!

Go ahead, Exercise your FREEWILL to promote, defend, engage to Pray to dead humans and their departed souls and spirits…because apparently Catholic folklore “of they you call on”…supersede Christ Jesus’ intercessory Appointment.

Be Prepared;
The Judge will burn your corrupt works.

1 Tim 2:
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I think you're actually proving my point. If Jesus was merely a spirit appearing as a man, then He was not truly human. But Scripture says "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14), not merely that He appeared to be flesh.

Before His incarnation, the Word existed eternally with the Father (John 1:1-2). But when "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14), He did not merely appear as a man or temporarily wear a body. He became truly human.

After His resurrection, Jesus did not say, "I am a spirit appearing as a man." He said, "A spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). He invited His disciples to touch Him and even ate before them (Luke 24:42-43). Angels may appear in human form, but Jesus explicitly distinguished Himself from a spirit by pointing to His real, resurrected body.

Likewise, Scripture does not say a human son was born and later became God's Son at age 30. The One conceived in Mary's womb was already called "the Son of God" (Luke 1:35). The child born of Mary was not a separate human person who later received divine status.

Romans 1:3-4 distinguishes Christ according to His humanity and according to His divine sonship, but it is speaking of the same Person throughout: "His Son Jesus Christ our Lord."

So the question remains: Who was Mary the mother of? Was it Jesus Christ, the eternal Son who became flesh?

 

[Moonwood]

The command was, as I posted in my last post, "You shall not make images to yourselves."; in other words, you will not take it upon yourselves to make statues or images.

There are a few main differences between the items that God commanded to be made and the ones that Romanism makes:

1) God does not command, or give permission for, statues or images of Mary, Jesus, or "saints" (but often not in the biblical sense) to be made.

2) He does not command, or give permission for, people to bow down before such statues or images.

3) He does not command, or give permission for, people to pray to whomever or whatever those statues or images represent.

What do idolaters do? They bow down before statues, or images, of their idols and pray to whatever they represent, sometimes making offerings to them. Such actions are forms of worship...

But where does Scripture establish the principle that religious images are forbidden unless God gives an explicit command to make them?

The cherubim, Temple imagery, bronze oxen, palm trees, pomegranates, and other sacred images demonstrate that images are not inherently violations of the Second Commandment. So the commandment itself cannot simply mean, "Never make a religious image."

What I see in Exodus 20:3-5 is a prohibition against making images as idols and then bowing down to and serving them as gods. The context is, "You shall have no other gods before Me."

As for your three points, they seem to assume the very issue under debate. Catholics do not believe Mary, the saints, or their statues are gods. So calling those statues "idols" doesn't prove they're idols; it simply restates your conclusion.

The question remains: What biblical test are you using to distinguish a lawful sacred image from an idol? If the answer is merely, "God explicitly commanded one but not the other," where does Scripture say that every religious image requires a specific divine command in order to be lawful?

 

[Peter1]

Jesus was both fully human and fully divine you cannot separate them

 

[Taken]

You say the determining factor is:

"What God Says TO DO. What God Says TO NOT DO."

But that's not actually a principle.

That’s the Option God Gave you.

That's just restating the question. My question is: what is it about the cherubim, the Ark imagery, and the Temple imagery that makes them permissible, while making a statue of Mary impermissible?

The images God instructed were per
His Instruction, His Design, For His Purpose, of angels He Created.

Your Statues are From “men’s imaginations” that NO Sculptor, Stone/smith EVER saw, them, their likeness, appearance, or image.

Earlier you seemed to object to religious images themselves.

Do not still stands.

But God commanded religious images.

Made by men WITH Gods instruction.

So now you appear to be saying that religious images are permissible when God commands them.

Precisely.

But then where does God say that all other religious images are forbidden?

Do not, should suffice.

The issue is idolatry.

Part of the issue.

But that means the issue is not simply the existence of an image.

Correct… as I mentioned THE “WHY”.

You say:

"The departed souls and spirits in Heaven ARE No longer a Person...!"

Correct.

I don't see any biblical basis for that claim.

What was ADAM…
Between…
God Forming His Body…
and (conjunction)…next
Blowing a soul into his Body?

Scripture consistently presents the departed righteous as remaining identifiable persons.

Does a man lose his identity because his body is dead. his soul is departed, his spirit has departed ?
No.

Moses is still Moses at the Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1-3). Elijah is still Elijah. The souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9-10 are conscious, speaking, remembering, and petitioning God. If a departed believer ceases to be a person, then Moses and Elijah are no longer Moses and Elijah, which is not how Scripture presents them.

Nonsense.
Moses’ body, soul, spirit, IS Moses.

You also say:

"You HAVE... a Living, Body, Soul, Spirit in INTERCESSOR IN Heaven, JESUS..."

Catholics agree completely. The question is why Christ's unique intercession excludes all subordinate intercession when Scripture repeatedly commands Christians to intercede for one another.

Do you really Not comprehend to PRAY FOR the Living ON Earth…
Do you Think spirits and souls in Heaven are Suffering fears, worries, debts, diseases, wars, liars. thieves, wackos …and Satan…
As ON they ON Earth?

If Christ's role as intercessor prevents anyone else from interceding, then Paul's command to offer "supplications, prayers, intercessions" for others becomes difficult to explain.

Been explained. Cant understand it FOR you.

Catholics do not believe Mary replaces Christ's intercession.

If Mary is your intercessor… No need for Jesus.
There is no First chair and Second chair.
Pick one.. Your FREEWILL.

Glory to God
Taken

 

[David1701]

But where does Scripture establish the principle that religious images are forbidden unless God gives an explicit command to make them?

The cherubim, Temple imagery, bronze oxen, palm trees, pomegranates, and other sacred images demonstrate that images are not inherently violations of the Second Commandment. So the commandment itself cannot simply mean, "Never make a religious image."

What I see in Exodus 20:3-5 is a prohibition against making images as idols and then bowing down to and serving them as gods. The context is, "You shall have no other gods before Me."

As for your three points, they seem to assume the very issue under debate. Catholics do not believe Mary, the saints, or their statues are gods. So calling those statues "idols" doesn't prove they're idols; it simply restates your conclusion.

The question remains: What biblical test are you using to distinguish a lawful sacred image from an idol? If the answer is merely, "God explicitly commanded one but not the other," where does Scripture say that every religious image requires a specific divine command in order to be lawful?

<sigh>
Already answered...

The command is not to make statues or images, not to bow down before them and not to pray to them. Bowing down before a statue of Mary and praying to her is, by definition, idolatry. We are to pray to our Father in heaven, not to people or anything else.

 

[Moonwood]

<sigh>
Already answered...

The command is not to make statues or images, not to bow down before them and not to pray to them. Bowing down before a statue of Mary and praying to her is, by definition, idolatry. We are to pray to our Father in heaven, not to people or anything else.

But that's precisely what's in dispute. You keep saying that bowing before a statue of Mary and praying to her is "by definition" idolatry, but that's the very point that needs to be demonstrated, not assumed.

The biblical definition of idolatry is not simply "being in the presence of an image." Scripture contains instances of bowing that are not worship (e.g., before kings, prophets, and other people), and God Himself commanded sacred images to exist in Israel's worship.

So I'm still asking for the biblical principle that distinguishes a lawful sacred image from an idol.

If your answer is simply, "Any image before which someone bows is an idol," then the cherubim in the Tabernacle and Temple become difficult to explain. If your answer is, "Any image connected with prayer is an idol," then you'll need to show that from the text, because Exodus 20 doesn't say, "You shall not make any religious image unless expressly commanded by God." That's the principle you're asserting, and I'm asking where Scripture teaches it.

The issue isn't whether idol worship is wrong. We both agree that it is. The issue is whether every act of bowing before an image or every use of a religious image is necessarily idol worship. That's the point that still hasn't been established.

 

[Moonwood]

Made by men WITH Gods instruction.

Exactly. So we've established that the mere act of making a religious image is not what Exodus 20 forbids, since God instructed men to make religious images.

My question is: where does Scripture say that every lawful religious image must be made only by a specific command from God?

The Second Commandment does not say, "You may only make images that I expressly command." That's the principle you're introducing.

So what is the biblical distinction between a lawful sacred image and an idol?

The departed souls and spirits in Heaven ARE No longer a Person…!

You say:

"The departed souls and spirits in Heaven ARE No longer a Person...!"

But a few lines later you also say:

"Does a man lose his identity because his body is dead, his soul is departed, his spirit has departed? No."

Those two statements don't seem compatible. If Moses remains Moses, Elijah remains Elijah, and Mary remains Mary after bodily death, then they remain identifiable persons. Scripture presents them that way. At the Transfiguration, Moses is not treated as a non-person or merely as an impersonal soul. He is still Moses. Elijah is still Elijah. Both are recognizable and capable of communication (Matthew 17:1-3).

You then say:

"Moses' body, soul, spirit, IS Moses."

Yet Moses' earthly body had died centuries before the Transfiguration (Deuteronomy 34:5), and Scripture still refers to him as Moses and depicts him conversing with Jesus. So Scripture itself appears to distinguish personal identity from possession of a presently living earthly body. Which brings us back to the question:

If Moses remains Moses after bodily death, and Mary remains Mary after bodily death, where does Scripture teach that such persons are incapable of praying, interceding, or participating in the life of Christ's body?

If Mary is your intercessor… No need for Jesus.
There is no First chair and Second chair.

That conclusion does not follow. If asking someone to intercede means there is "no need for Jesus," then the same would be true every time a Christian asks a pastor, spouse, friend, or church member to pray for them. Yet Scripture explicitly instructs Christians to offer:

"supplications, prayers, intercessions" for others (1 Timothy 2:1).

So clearly Christ's unique role as mediator does not exclude all subordinate intercession. Otherwise Paul would be commanding Christians to do something that competes with Christ's mediation.

Catholics do not believe Mary replaces Jesus any more than asking a fellow Christian to pray replaces Jesus.

Christ is the source of all grace.
Christ is the sole mediator of redemption.
Christ is the reason any prayer is effective.
Any intercession offered by Mary, the saints, or believers on earth depends entirely on Him.

You are presenting a false choice:

Either Jesus intercedes, or Mary intercedes.

But Scripture already rejects that kind of reasoning when it commands Christians to intercede for one another.
The question isn't whether Jesus intercedes. We both agree He does.
The question is why Christ's intercession prevents a believer in Heaven from praying for another believer when it clearly does not prevent believers on earth from doing so.

 

[prism]

And while i sure will call her blessed , what i wont do is pray to her or any angel or any saint .

But it dont mean we pray to her either .

I hope I never gave the impression that I accused R. Catholics of praying to Mary.

Nor does it mean we should ever once have sat under
men who went about in long robes and desired fancy titles
and to be called most holy reverand and have rings kissed and m en
kneel before them .

Not sure where that came from?

 

[Dryhn]

I hope I never gave the impression that I accused R. Catholics of praying to Mary.

Not sure where that came from?

A small example of what can be found on a quick search

5 Ways to Pray to Mary - FOCUS

Learn how to pray to Mary with FOCUS's guide on five ways to pray to Mary. Learn about and develop a relationship with our heavenly mother.

focus.org

The Politics of Papal Etiquette (to kiss the ring or not to kiss the ring?) — Catholic Voices

By Joe Ronan Until comparatively recently, the etiquette of greeting people was rather straightforward. A handshake would suffice for all other than close relatives, and even then polite restraint was the rule. Increasingly though social greetings seem to be becoming more divers

www.catholicvoices.org.uk

 

[Taken]

Exactly. So we've established that the mere act of making a religious image is not what Exodus 20 forbids, since God instructed men to make religious images.

It does not Forbid…
You can Follow Gods Example…
If God tells you to erect golden angels in such manner, Do so.
If Gods word tells you Not To build or fashion your own graven image, for bowing to…
Do as He instructs … or Don’t.

Your FREEWILL!

My question is: where does Scripture say that every lawful religious image must be made only by a specific command from God?

Example of what God DOES… and No Scripture Telling you…To use your own imagination … since God Apparently SAID NOTHING about a Pedestal for Mary!

The Second Commandment does not say, "You may only make images that I expressly command." That's the principle you're introducing.

Your repetitive points are beginning to resemble a person whose understanding is greatly lacking.

Scripture is NOT Tricky.
Do this.
Don’t do that.

So what is the biblical distinction between a lawful sacred image and an idol?

Do this.
Don't do that.

You say:

"The departed souls and spirits in Heaven ARE No longer a Person...!"

But a few lines later you also say:

"Does a man lose his identity because his body is dead, his soul is departed, his spirit has departed? No."

Those two statements don't seem compatible.

A man… is a KIND of Being…
Male. Female… a Body…
That Body….has Life…Called…Blood.
That Body, (living) has a living soul IN it.
The souls Life is Gods Breath.
That Body has a natural spirit.
It’s spirit, is that mans Truth in his heart.

A person “IS” an alive Body with its living Soul in its Body.

A mortally Dead body, has no soul or spirit IN its Body!!

A dead body is not called “A Person”.
It is called by its name …
Or…
cadaver
corpse
decedent
departed
remains
loved one
stiff

A being called “a man”, does Not always “mean A Human”.

Spirits / Angels / God … can “Appear”…
“AS” a man, and by their outward APPEARANCE, be called a man.”

If Moses remains Moses, Elijah remains Elijah, and Mary remains Mary after bodily death, then they remain identifiable persons. Scripture presents them that way. At the Transfiguration, Moses is not treated as a non-person or merely as an impersonal soul. He is still Moses. Elijah is still Elijah. Both are recognizable and capable of communication (Matthew 17:1-3).

Yes… by their Name.
Communication TO / With Jesus.

You then say:

"Moses' body, soul, spirit, IS Moses."

Yet Moses' earthly body had died centuries before the Transfiguration (Deuteronomy 34:5), and Scripture still refers to him as Moses and depicts him conversing with Jesus. So Scripture itself appears to distinguish personal identity from possession of a presently living earthly body. Which brings us back to the question:

If Moses remains Moses after bodily death, and Mary remains Mary after bodily death, where does Scripture teach that such persons are incapable of praying, interceding, or participating in the life of Christ's body?

Nothing says Peter, James or John…
Communicated with Moses or Elias…
Or
Moses or Elias communicated with Peter, James or John.

That conclusion does not follow. If asking someone to intercede means there is "no need for Jesus," then the same would be true every time a Christian asks a pastor, spouse, friend, or church member to pray for them.

God never Teaches to Call on the Dead, or their departed Spirit…
But hey…Talk to the Dead, Call out to Them,
Your Freewill.…
* You may NOT like the Consequences…

Yet Scripture explicitly instructs Christians to offer:

"supplications, prayers, intercessions" for others (1 Timothy 2:1).

Yes. AND? Are you praying FOR Mary… ?
If So, WHY?
Is her Departed soul / spirit… plagued with sadness and unpleasantness?

(Gee …maybe… If she CAN hear thousands of Catholics Bombarding her with their problems, diseases, sadness…
Sure Does NOT sound like Mary’s soul and spirit would be Experiencing …
REST, PEACE and JOY!!!)

So clearly Christ's unique role as mediator does not exclude all subordinate intercession.

Good Grief…
Pray for the LIVING!!!
Stop Trying to bombard The departed With your problems!

Otherwise Paul would be commanding Christians to do something that competes with Christ's mediation.

You can second guess Paul all day Long…
He serves the Lord God…
Not you.

Catholics do not believe Mary replaces Jesus any more than asking a fellow Christian to pray replaces Jesus.

Dead departed saints Can Not Hear you.
And Thank God…
How miserable that would be … and Not at all … The Rest, peace, joy, they were Promised!!

Christ is the source of all grace.
Christ is the sole mediator of redemption.
Christ is the reason any prayer is effective.
Any intercession offered by Mary, the saints, or believers on earth depends entirely on Him.

You are presenting a false choice:

Uh… That is your gig…
Praying TO saints…
You own that…

Either Jesus intercedes, or Mary intercedes.

And …why try to put your corrupt choices on me ?
God doesn’t Stop you…
Your choices, your action, you reap the consequences.

But Scripture already rejects that kind of reasoning when it commands Christians to intercede for one another.
The question isn't whether Jesus intercedes. We both agree He does.
The question is why Christ's intercession prevents a believer in Heaven from praying for another believer when it clearly does not prevent believers on earth from doing so.

No one said Departed soul can not pray For human on Earth…

Good grief…Do you really NOT comprehend… the crux?
COMMUNICATION…
YOU calling out To the departed…
Is the no, no, no, no Scripture Teaches!!!

You CHOOSE to Do that anyway…
Then You Desperately Try…
TO JUSTIFY your choice, your behavior…
BY comparing “apples and oranges”( the living and departed )…
Then slant this discussion …
Accusing me… of presenting False choices.

Get a Grip…
You have FREEWILL to CHOOSE to DO whatever YOU Want.

You reap the consequences (good or bad) FOR YOUR Choices.

Gods Word Never instructs the Living to call on the Departed..

God Ask your Catholic …
Why they Teach That, when Scripture Doesn’t.
Then ASK THEM…WHAT Is The Consequence God warned For calling on the Departed!

Come back with “their” Answer.
Because it is clear, you do Not Know.

 

[amigo de christo]

I hope I never gave the impression that I accused R. Catholics of praying to Mary.

Not sure where that came from?

Well they do pray to her . when one is upon their knees saying things like O blessed mary .........
and making requests that is prayer to her . just as it is to the other saints .
and that be blasphemy .

 

[amigo de christo]

I hope I never gave the impression that I accused R. Catholics of praying to Mary.

Not sure where that came from?

no wonder so much confusion abounds . but so it does in much of the protestant realm as well .
When they too twist things to justify error rather than simply beleiving what is written .

 

[Peter1]

The center of the Hail Mary is "blessed is the fruit of your womb "Jesus".The first part is biblical and the last part is simply asking her to pray for us.

 

[amigo de christo]

I hope I never gave the impression that I accused R. Catholics of praying to Mary.

Not sure where that came from?

and as far as your last question , Go to and behold them popes .
All dressed up in fancy garbs and all loving the titles of men . such as MOST HOLY FATHER
and most Holy reverand .
And having men to kneel before them and kiss a ring .
KINDA ODD dont ya think. WHEN even PETER hismelf had men to get up and not kneel before Him .
YEAH that RCC is t anked . But think not that i do not expose the wicked and vile d eeds
of many n that protestant realm as well .
And to think , most folks keep looking for a coming falling away . OH ITS HERE and its massive now .
For not only are sins and blasphemies now called good
EVEN the v ery gospel has been omitted for the sake of anti christ ecumenical intefaith peace .
YEAH . so much for this great awakening , ITS THE GREAT FALLING AWAY that abounds .
And it will do so and continue to get worse TILL one day in an hour and a day known to none
JESUS will rip the skies and launch wrath down upon this entire ecumeincal we are one
Inclusive peace of anti christ people .
NOW seeing I DO NOT desire their destruction but rather repentance , THAT IS WHY i warn all
to flee that harlot and her inclusive father satan who has done naught
but prepare this world and false relgoins and much of christendom for the day of their own sudden destruction s.