Do Catholics Worship Mary? What Does Scripture Actually Say?

[Moonwood]

Many people claim Catholics worship Mary.

But worship and honor are not the same thing.

Scripture commands worship of God alone:

"You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve." (Matthew 4:10)

Catholics agree completely.

God alone is Creator.
God alone is Almighty.
God alone is worshiped.

Yet Scripture also teaches that certain people can be honored without being worshiped.

The angel Gabriel said to Mary:

"Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you." (Luke 1:28)

Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, proclaimed:

"Blessed are you among women." (Luke 1:42)

and

"Why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

Mary Herself prophesied:

"From now on all generations will call me blessed." (Luke 1:48)

Notice what Scripture does not say.

It does not say Mary is God.
It does not say Mary is equal to God.
It does not say Mary should be worshiped.

But it does say She is blessed among women, the mother of the Lord, and someone whom all generations will call blessed.

Therefore, honoring Mary is biblical.
Worshiping Mary is not.

The real question is not whether Mary should be honored.
Scripture already answers that.

The question is whether honoring the mother of Jesus automatically equals worship.
Scripture says otherwise.

The difference between honoring Mary and worshiping Her is the same difference between honoring a servant of God and worshiping God Himself.

 

[Moonwood]

Why the Bible Says Mary Is Not to Be Worshipped​

According to the Bible, worship is reserved for God alone, and Scripture never commands or implies that Mary, the mother of Jesus, should receive worship.

1. Worship belongs to God alone
The Ten Commandments explicitly forbid worship of anything other than God: “You shall not make for yourself an image… or bow down to them or serve them” (Exodus 20:3–5). Jesus reaffirmed this in Matthew 4:10: “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only” The New Testament shows that even angels and apostles reject worship offered to them (Revelation 19:10; 22:9; Acts 10:25–26; 14:13–14)

2. Mary’s role in Scripture
Mary is honored as “blessed among women” (Luke 1:42) and as the chosen mother of Jesus (Luke 1:38, 45–55), but the Bible never elevates her to a divine status or commands worship of her. Her blessing is due to her role in God’s plan, not because she is God Himself. As 1 Timothy 2:5–6 teaches, there is “one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”.

3. No biblical basis for Marian worship
The Bible contains no passages instructing believers to pray to Mary, bow to her, or treat her as a mediator. Catholic traditions sometimes call this “veneration,” but biblical scholars note that such acts, when they divert glory from God, are inconsistent with Scripture Worship, by definition, is an act of devotion to the divine; directing it to a created person is idolatry.

4. The danger of misplaced worship
Scripture warns against worshiping created beings: “They worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator” (Romans 1:25) Even honoring Mary must be limited to respect and gratitude for her role in God’s work, not to worship that would usurp God’s unique place.

Summary
The Bible affirms Mary’s special place as the mother of Jesus and a model of faith, but it does not teach that she is to be worshipped. Worship is to be directed solely to God, and any honor given to Mary should be respectful admiration, not religious devotion that replaces God as the object of worship.

Your entire post argues that Mary should not be worshipped. Catholics agree. The Catholic Church has never taught that Mary is God or that She should receive the worship due to God alone.

The real issue is whether asking Mary for intercession is the same thing as worship. Simply proving that God alone should be worshipped does not establish that every prayer addressed to Mary is worship.

You cite Exodus 20, Matthew 4:10, Revelation 19:10, Acts 10:25-26, and Romans 1:25, but those passages condemn giving divine worship to creatures. Catholics explicitly reject giving Mary divine worship.

Likewise, 1 Timothy 2:5 says Christ is the one mediator between God and man. Catholics agree completely. The question is whether asking another member of Christ's body to pray for you competes with Christ's mediation. If it did, then asking fellow Christians on earth to pray for you would also violate 1 Timothy 2:5.

You also claim there is "no biblical basis for Marian worship." Again, Catholics do not claim Marian worship is biblical because they do not worship Mary. That is arguing against a position Catholics themselves reject.

The debate is not "Should Mary be worshipped?" The answer from both Catholics and Protestants is no. The debate is whether the saints in heaven can intercede for believers and whether asking for that intercession is permissible. Your post never actually addresses that question.

So before calling Marian devotion idolatry, you first have to demonstrate that honoring Mary and asking for Her prayers is equivalent to worship. Simply quoting verses that say "worship God alone" does not prove that point, because Catholics already believe and practice that principle.

 

[rwb]

Your entire post argues that Mary should not be worshipped. Catholics agree. The Catholic Church has never taught that Mary is God or that she should receive the worship due to God alone.

The real issue is whether asking Mary for intercession is the same thing as worship. Simply proving that God alone should be worshipped does not establish that every prayer addressed to Mary is worship.

You cite Exodus 20, Matthew 4:10, Revelation 19:10, Acts 10:25-26, and Romans 1:25, but those passages condemn giving divine worship to creatures. Catholics explicitly reject giving Mary divine worship.

Likewise, 1 Timothy 2:5 says Christ is the one mediator between God and man. Catholics agree completely. The question is whether asking another member of Christ's body to pray for you competes with Christ's mediation. If it did, then asking fellow Christians on earth to pray for you would also violate 1 Timothy 2:5.

You also claim there is "no biblical basis for Marian worship." Again, Catholics do not claim Marian worship is biblical because they do not worship Mary. That is arguing against a position Catholics themselves reject.

The debate is not "Should Mary be worshipped?" The answer from both Catholics and Protestants is no. The debate is whether the saints in heaven can intercede for believers and whether asking for that intercession is permissible. Your post never actually addresses that question.

So before calling Marian devotion idolatry, you first have to demonstrate that honoring Mary and asking for her prayers is equivalent to worship. Simply quoting verses that say "worship God alone" does not prove that point, because Catholics already believe and practice that principle.

Where in Scripture are we ever instructed to appeal to physically dead humans in prayer?

There is only one Mediator between God and humanity. Scripture affirms that Christ is the one mediator between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25) and that the Holy Spirit intercedes for believers (Romans 8:26). These passages make clear that all intercession is ultimately through God, not through deceased believers.

Prayer is more than communication with God; it is an act of worship that reflects a believer’s devotion and acknowledgment of God’s sovereignty. In the Old Testament, prayer is closely linked with worship in both personal and communal contexts. For example, Psalm 95:6 invites believers to worship through prayerful submission: "Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker" King David’s psalms often combine prayer with praise, demonstrating that prayer itself can be an expression of adoration and reverence.

In the New Testament, Jesus emphasizes prayer as integral to worship. The Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13) begins with adoration: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name," acknowledging God’s holiness and setting a worshipful tone. Paul also links prayer with spiritual worship, urging believers to "present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship" (Romans 12:1). This shows that prayer, combined with devotion and obedience, constitutes true worship.

 

[Moonwood]

Where in Scripture are we ever instructed to appeal to physically dead humans in prayer?

There is only one Mediator between God and humanity. Scripture affirms that Christ is the one mediator between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5; Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25) and that the Holy Spirit intercedes for believers (Romans 8:26). These passages make clear that all intercession is ultimately through God, not through deceased believers.

Prayer is more than communication with God; it is an act of worship that reflects a believer’s devotion and acknowledgment of God’s sovereignty. In the Old Testament, prayer is closely linked with worship in both personal and communal contexts. For example, Psalm 95:6 invites believers to worship through prayerful submission: "Come, let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the LORD our Maker" King David’s psalms often combine prayer with praise, demonstrating that prayer itself can be an expression of adoration and reverence.
In the New Testament, Jesus emphasizes prayer as integral to worship. The Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13) begins with adoration: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name," acknowledging God’s holiness and setting a worshipful tone. Paul also links prayer with spiritual worship, urging believers to "present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship" (Romans 12:1). This shows that prayer, combined with devotion and obedience, constitutes true worship.

You've moved from arguing that Marian devotion is worship to arguing that there is no biblical warrant for asking saints in heaven to intercede. Those are related but distinct claims. Even if the latter were true, it would not by itself establish the former.

The question was not whether prayer can be an act of worship toward God. Of course it can. The question is whether every prayer or petition directed to someone is automatically worship.

In Scripture and historical English usage, "to pray" can simply mean "to ask" or "to make a request." Demonstrating that prayer often accompanies worship does not prove that every request made to another person constitutes worship.

You ask, "Where in Scripture are we ever instructed to appeal to physically dead humans in prayer?" Catholics would first challenge the premise that the saints in heaven are simply "dead humans." Jesus taught that God "is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Mark 12:27). Those who die in Christ are alive in Him, not nonexistent or separated from His body. Hebrews 12:1 speaks of a "great cloud of witnesses" surrounding believers, and Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 depict heavenly figures presenting the prayers of God's people before God.

Regarding 1 Timothy 2:5, Catholics agree completely that Christ is the one mediator between God and humanity in the unique sense of redemption and reconciliation. However, the same passage begins by urging believers to offer "supplications, prayers, intercessions" for others (1 Timothy 2:1). If Christ's unique mediation excluded all subordinate forms of intercession, Paul would be contradicting himself within the same chapter.

The distinction is between mediation of redemption and participation in intercessory prayer. Christ alone saves. Yet Christians participate in His work whenever they pray for one another. Asking a fellow believer to pray for you does not compete with Christ's mediation; Catholics argue that asking a believer already in heaven to pray for you does not either.

You also argue that prayer is worship. Sometimes it is. Prayer directed to God is often an act of worship because it includes adoration, sacrifice, and acknowledgment of His divine authority. But Scripture also records people making requests, petitions, and even bowing before others without offering them divine worship. Therefore, the claim that a request for intercession is automatically worship still needs to be demonstrated, not simply assumed.
Most importantly, your original argument was that Marian devotion is idolatry because worship belongs to God alone. Catholics agree that worship belongs to God alone. The point under dispute is whether asking Mary for Her prayers constitutes the worship that belongs exclusively to God. Quoting passages that condemn worship of creatures does not answer that question unless it is first shown that requesting Mary's intercession is itself an act of divine worship.

In short, both Catholics and Protestants affirm that God alone is to be worshipped. The remaining question is whether the saints in heaven are alive in Christ, aware of believers on earth, and able to intercede for them. That is the issue that must be argued, because it is not equivalent to proving that Catholics worship Mary.

 

[rwb]

You ask, "Where in Scripture are we ever instructed to appeal to physically dead humans in prayer?" Catholics would first challenge the premise that the saints in heaven are simply "dead humans." Jesus taught that God "is not the God of the dead, but of the living" (Mark 12:27). Those who die in Christ are alive in Him, not nonexistent or separated from His body. Hebrews 12:1 speaks of a "great cloud of witnesses" surrounding believers, and Revelation 5:8 and 8:3-4 depict heavenly figures presenting the prayers of God's people before God.

With this I completely agree! The life a man receives when they have been born again is ETERNAL, and death does not take eternal life away. Death does however take away our mortal flesh & blood, but that does not mean we are no longer spiritual body, which is that part of us that leaves mortal flesh and are as angels of God in heaven; spirit beings without human form. This is why I ask where Scripture instructs us to pray to PHYSICALLY dead humans. It doesn't, nor does the Bible instruct us to pray to the spiritual body of saints alive in heaven with the Lord. Scripture presents us with examples of how living souls in heaven interact with God, but there are no examples of living mortal beings having dialog through prayer with the spiritual body of living souls in heaven.

However, the same passage begins by urging believers to offer "supplications, prayers, intercessions" for others (1 Timothy 2:1).

Yes, living born again believers are instructed to pray to God for our fellow physically alive human beings, who still have the breath of life within their mortal body of flesh & blood. But we are not instructed to pray to those who have already physically died who have left mortal body and returned to God in heaven. We offer prayers for the living not for the physically dead. We might pray, as Paul did, for the house of one who has died, but Paul did not pray to the dead. Paul prayed to the Lord that Onesiphorus might find mercy of the Lord the day of judgment because of the many mercies Onesiphorus had ministered to Paul. But Paul did not pray to this man who physically died in faith.

2Ti 1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
2Ti 1:17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
2Ti 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Believers offer intercessory prayer to God for the physically living, not the physically dead spiritual body of living souls in heaven.

 

[rwb]

In short, both Catholics and Protestants affirm that God alone is to be worshipped.

Catholics might affirm that God alone is to be worshipped, but in practice you worship the mother of Jesus which is an act of idolatry.

 

[Moonwood]

With this I completely agree! The life a man receives when they have been born again is ETERNAL, and death does not take eternal life away. Death does however take away our mortal flesh & blood, but that does not mean we are no longer spiritual body, which is that part of us that leaves mortal flesh and are as angels of God in heaven; spirit beings without human form. This is why I ask where Scripture instructs us to pray to PHYSICALLY dead humans. It doesn't, nor does the Bible instruct us to pray to the spiritual body of saints alive in heaven with the Lord. Scripture presents us with examples of how living souls in heaven interact with God, but there are no examples of living mortal beings having dialog through prayer with the spiritual body of living souls in heaven.



Yes, living born again believers are instructed to pray to God for our fellow physically alive human beings, who still have the breath of life within their mortal body of flesh & blood. But we are not instructed to pray to those who have already physically died who have left mortal body and returned to God in heaven. We offer prayers for the living not for the physically dead. We might pray, as Paul did, for the house of one who has died, but Paul did not pray to the dead. Paul prayed to the Lord that Onesiphorus might find mercy of the Lord the day of judgment because of the many mercies Onesiphorus had ministered to Paul. But Paul did not pray to this man who physically died in faith.

2Ti 1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
2Ti 1:17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
2Ti 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Believers offer intercessory prayer to God for the physically living, not the physically dead spiritual body of living souls in heaven.

We agree that Scripture explicitly instructs believers on earth to pray for one another. Where we disagree is on whether those instructions are limited only to Christians currently living on earth.

You acknowledge that the saints in Heaven are alive in Christ and that death does not end their existence or their membership in the body of Christ. If that is true, then the question becomes: where does Scripture teach that physical death prevents a member of Christ's body from praying for another member of Christ's body?

I agree there is no verse that says, "Ask the saints in heaven to pray for you." But neither have you produced a verse saying that believers in Heaven cannot know of earthly events, cannot pray for believers on earth, or cannot intercede before God.

In fact, the passages already mentioned point in the opposite direction. Hebrews speaks of a great cloud of witnesses surrounding believers. Revelation depicts heavenly beings presenting the prayers of the saints before God.

These passages do not prove the entire Catholic doctrine, but they do show that Heaven is not isolated from the life of the Church on earth. Additionally, 2 Maccabees 15:14 describes the prophet Jeremiah, long after his earthly death, as one who "prays much for the people and the holy city." For Catholics, this is a direct example of a righteous departed saint interceding for God's people, demonstrating that physical death does not prevent the righteous from praying before God.

So the issue is not whether the saints are alive. We both agree they are. The issue is whether physical death creates a barrier that prevents their intercession. That conclusion is not something I see taught in Scripture.

Moreover, even if you believe Scripture does not provide sufficient warrant for asking the saints for intercession, that still does not establish your earlier claim that Marian devotion is idolatry. At most, it would establish what you believe to be an unsupported practice. Idolatry requires showing that Catholics are giving Mary the worship due to God alone, and that point still remains to be demonstrated.

If your response is that you do not accept 2 Maccabees as Scripture, then we have moved into a discussion about the biblical canon. But that is a different question from whether Scripture accepted by Catholics contains examples of the righteous departed interceding for the living.

Catholics might affirm that God alone is to be worshipped, but in practice you worship the mother of Jesus which is an act of idolatry.

Or Catholics worship God alone, exactly as we say, and the disagreement is over what constitutes worship.

Simply repeating that Marian devotion is idolatry does not make it so. You still need to demonstrate that honoring Mary or asking for Her intercession is equivalent to offering Her the adoration and worship that belong to God alone. That is the very point under dispute.

Catholics do not believe Mary is God, do not believe She is equal to God, and do not offer Her the worship due to God. So merely asserting, "you worship Mary," assumes the very point that must be proven rather than demonstrating it.

If asking someone for their prayers is worship, then you would also need to explain why asking fellow Christians on earth to pray for you is not worship. The distinction cannot simply be assumed; it has to be established.

 

[rwb]

I agree there is no verse that says, "Ask the saints in heaven to pray for you." But neither have you produced a verse saying that believers in heaven cannot know of earthly events, cannot pray for believers on earth, or cannot intercede before God.

This is an argument from silence and proves nothing.

Hebrews speaks of a great cloud of witnesses surrounding believers. Revelation depicts heavenly beings presenting the prayers of the saints before God.

Are you imagining the great cloud of witnesses that surround believers are a spiritual body witnessing from heaven after physical death?

When using greater context we discover from Heb 11 it is the faith these witnesses displayed in life through much persecution and tribulation remaining faithful unto death. It is faith the witnesses displayed in life, even unto death that speaks to us from heaven. Because we have a written testimony that speaks of them. They all have a testimony of dying in faith pleased God. For without faith it is impossible to please Him.

Hebrews 12:1 (KJV) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

These heavenly beings present the prayers of ALL saints who offer up prayers to God while they are still physically alive on earth before death. Christ alone, through His Spirit intercedes for living saints before the Father in heaven, not disembodied human spirits.

Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Additionally, 2 Maccabees 15:14 describes the prophet Jeremiah, long after his earthly death, as one who "prays much for the people and the holy city." For Catholics, this is a direct example of a righteous departed saint interceding for God's people, demonstrating that physical death does not prevent the righteous from praying before God.

Appealing to apocryphal writings adds no credibility to the discussion. Some writings known as the “Apocrypha” (e.g., 1 & 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon) appeared in Greek translations of the Old Testament used in certain communities. While these books often contain helpful historical or devotional material, they were not accepted into the Hebrew canon maintained by Jewish authorities.

In essence, the books of Maccabees were excluded from the Hebrew Bible and Protestant canon due to a combination of late composition, absence of prophetic authority, doctrinal discrepancies, and political considerations, even though they were historically significant and remain part of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox biblical traditions.​

I'm not going to continually repeat what I've already stated. Only the Holy Spirit can convince you of doctrinal error and idol worship taught through Catholic tradition.

 

[Moonwood]

This is an argument from silence and proves nothing.



Are you imagining the great cloud of witnesses that surround believers are a spiritual body witnessing from heaven after physical death?

When using greater context we discover from Heb 11 it is the faith these witnesses displayed in life through much persecution and tribulation remaining faithful unto death. It is faith the witnesses displayed in life, even unto death that speaks to us from heaven. Because we have a written testimony that speaks of them. They all have a testimony of dying in faith pleased God. For without faith it is impossible to please Him.

Hebrews 12:1 (KJV) Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

These heavenly beings present the prayers of ALL saints who offer up prayers to God while they are still physically alive on earth before death. Christ alone, through His Spirit intercedes for living saints before the Father in heaven, not disembodied human spirits.

Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.



Appealing to apocryphal writings adds no credibility to the discussion. Some writings known as the “Apocrypha” (e.g., 1 & 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon) appeared in Greek translations of the Old Testament used in certain communities. While these books often contain helpful historical or devotional material, they were not accepted into the Hebrew canon maintained by Jewish authorities.

In essence, the books of Maccabees were excluded from the Hebrew Bible and Protestant canon due to a combination of late composition, absence of prophetic authority, doctrinal discrepancies, and political considerations, even though they were historically significant and remain part of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox biblical traditions.​

I'm not going to continually repeat what I've already stated. Only the Holy Spirit can convince you of doctrinal error and idol worship taught through Catholic tradition.

You say my argument is from silence, but your position appears to rely on silence as well.

I have acknowledged that there is no verse that explicitly says, "Ask the saints in heaven to pray for you." My point is that Scripture also contains no verse stating that believers in Heaven are unable to pray for us, unable to know of earthly events, or unable to intercede before God.

The difference is that I have pointed to passages that are at least consistent with the saints remaining involved in the life of God's people: Hebrews' "great cloud of witnesses," Revelation's heavenly participation in the prayers of the saints, and, in the Catholic canon, Jeremiah's intercession in 2 Maccabees 15:14.

You may disagree with those interpretations, but simply saying there is no explicit command does not establish that the practice is forbidden, much less idolatrous.

As for Hebrews 12:1, I agree that the witnesses are the faithful men and women described in Hebrews 11. The question is whether the author is merely referring to their past testimony, or whether he is depicting them as presently surrounding believers. Reasonable Christians disagree on that point. But even if I grant your interpretation for the sake of argument, it still would not prove that the saints in Heaven are unable to intercede for the Church.

These heavenly beings present the prayers of ALL saints who offer up prayers to God while they are still physically alive on earth before death.

Then we already agree that heavenly beings are involved in presenting prayers before God. The question is not whether heaven participates in the presentation of prayers, but whether Scripture excludes glorified believers from that participation. I do not see a passage that makes such a distinction.

Since you acknowledge that those in Christ are alive in Heaven, the burden is on you to show where Scripture teaches that angels may present prayers before God but redeemed saints may not.

Appealing to apocryphal writings adds no credibility to the discussion. Some writings known as the “Apocrypha” (e.g., 1 & 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon) appeared in Greek translations of the Old Testament used in certain communities. While these books often contain helpful historical or devotional material, they were not accepted into the Hebrew canon maintained by Jewish authorities.

In essence, the books of Maccabees were excluded from the Hebrew Bible and Protestant canon due to a combination of late composition, absence of prophetic authority, doctrinal discrepancies, and political considerations, even though they were historically significant and remain part of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox biblical traditions.​

You dismiss 2 Maccabees because you reject its canonicity, but that's a canon argument, not an argument against the passage itself.

The passage remains a direct example of a righteous departed saint praying for God's people. If you reject that evidence, the discussion shifts from the intercession of saints to the canon of Scripture. So the question becomes: why should 2 Maccabees be excluded?

You argue that Maccabees lacks prophetic authority, contains doctrinal discrepancies, and was excluded from the Hebrew canon. But those points do not establish the Protestant canon; they reflect reasons Protestants give for preferring it.

Why should Christians be bound to the canon recognized by later rabbinic Judaism rather than the canon received by the early Church?

Moreover, if prayer for the dead or the intercession of the righteous departed is one of the reasons for rejecting 2 Maccabees, that seems circular. It assumes those doctrines are false and then uses that assumption as grounds for rejecting a book that contains them.

In any case, rejecting 2 Maccabees does not answer the example it contains. It simply moves the debate to a different question: by what authority is 2 Maccabees excluded from Scripture?

 

[rwb]

I have acknowledged that there is no verse that explicitly says, "Ask the saints in heaven to pray for you." My point is that Scripture also contains no verse stating that believers in Heaven are unable to pray for us, unable to know of earthly events, or unable to intercede before God.

We do have verses in the Old Testament of necromancers and spiritists with God forbidding His people from appealing to the dead through them. It is written in the Law. Consider for instance the example written of Saul, who called upon the spirit of Samuel after he died, through the woman of Endor who was known for her ability to call upon dead spirits. (see 1Sam 28)

Just as God forbade His people of Old from calling upon necromancers and spiritists to speak with dead spirits for them, since God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, it would be foolish to believe Christians in the New should call upon spirits of the dead.

Leviticus 19:31 (KJV) Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

De 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
De 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
De 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

If it's wrong to call upon dead spirits for enchanters, witches, charmers or consulters of familiar spirits, wizards or a necromancer, than when we call upon dead spirits haven't we then become one that does that thing which God forbids.

You may disagree with those interpretations, but simply saying there is no explicit command does not establish that the practice is forbidden, much less idolatrous.

Not only is there no explicit command for us to pray to dead spirits, as I've shown there is clear prohibition for doing so, for it is an abomination unto God.

I have no intention of turning this into a debate over the manuscripts. The only reason I mention Maccabees is because you brought up Catholic tradition that includes books the Church determined should not be included with the Sacred Texts of Scripture. Enough said about that.

 

[Moonwood]

We do have verses in the Old Testament of necromancers and spiritists with God forbidding His people from appealing to the dead through them. It is written in the Law. Consider for instance the example written of Saul, who called upon the spirit of Samuel after he died, through the woman of Endor who was known for her ability to call upon dead spirits. (see 1Sam 28)

Just as God forbade His people of Old from calling upon necromancers and spiritists to speak with dead spirits for them, since God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, it would be foolish to believe Christians in the New should call upon spirits of the dead.

Leviticus 19:31 (KJV) Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

De 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
De 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
De 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

If it's wrong to call upon dead spirits for enchanters, witches, charmers or consulters of familiar spirits, wizards or a necromancer, than when we call upon dead spirits haven't we then become one that does that thing which God forbids.



Not only is there no explicit command for us to pray to dead spirits, as I've shown there is clear prohibition for doing so, for it is an abomination unto God.

I have no intention of turning this into a debate over the manuscripts. The only reason I mention Maccabees is because you brought up Catholic tradition that includes books the Church determined should not be included with the Sacred Texts of Scripture. Enough said about that.

I think you're conflating two different things.

The passages in Leviticus 19 and Deuteronomy 18 condemn necromancy, divination, mediums, spiritists, and attempts to obtain secret knowledge through the dead. Saul's sin in 1 Samuel 28 was not simply that Samuel was alive before God. Saul sought out a medium whom God had explicitly forbidden after God refused to answer him, and he attempted to obtain revelation through occult means.

Catholics reject those practices as well.

Asking a saint to pray for us is fundamentally different from consulting a medium, attempting to summon spirits, practicing divination, or seeking hidden knowledge from the dead. Catholics are not attempting to conjure Mary, obtain secret information, predict the future, or bypass God. The request is simply, "Please pray for us."

If the two practices are truly the same thing, then that still needs to be demonstrated from Scripture rather than merely asserted.

You also state that there is a "clear prohibition" against asking saints for intercession. However, the passages you cite prohibit necromancy and consulting familiar spirits. They do not discuss asking glorified members of Christ's body to pray for us.

There is a significant difference between:

• "Tell me the future through a medium."
• "Pray to God for me."

Those are not the same act.

As for Revelation, you said:

"These heavenly beings present the prayers of ALL saints who offer up prayers to God..."

Then we already agree that heavenly beings are involved in presenting prayers before God. The remaining question is why you assume that no glorified human saint can participate in that heavenly ministry. I do not see where Scripture makes that distinction.

Revelation shows heavenly beings presenting prayers before God. You interpret those beings as excluding departed believers, but the text itself does not say that. Since you acknowledge that those in Christ are alive in Heaven, the burden is on you to show where Scripture teaches that angels may participate in presenting prayers before God but redeemed saints may not.

Regarding 2 Maccabees, simply calling it "Apocrypha" does not address the example it contains.

The passage still depicts the prophet Jeremiah, after his earthly death, praying for God's people. If you reject that evidence because you reject the book's canonicity, then we have shifted from discussing the intercession of saints to discussing the canon of Scripture.

The passage remains a direct example of a righteous departed saint praying for God's people. If you reject that evidence, the discussion becomes: why should 2 Maccabees be excluded?

You argue that Maccabees lacks prophetic authority, contains doctrinal discrepancies, and was excluded from the Hebrew canon. But those points do not establish the Protestant canon; they are reasons Protestants give for preferring it.

Why should Christians be bound to the canon recognized by later rabbinic Judaism rather than the canon received and used by the early Church?

Moreover, if prayer for the dead or the intercession of the righteous departed is one of the reasons for rejecting 2 Maccabees, that seems circular. It assumes those doctrines are false and then uses that assumption as grounds for rejecting a book that contains them.

In any case, rejecting 2 Maccabees does not answer the example it contains. It simply moves the debate to a different question: by what authority is 2 Maccabees excluded from Scripture?

Finally, even if I granted your entire argument for the sake of discussion, you still would not have established your earlier claim that Marian devotion is idolatry. At most, you would have argued that asking saints for intercession lacks biblical warrant. That is a different claim from saying Catholics worship Mary.

To show idolatry, you must demonstrate that honoring Mary or asking for Her prayers is equivalent to offering Her the adoration due to God alone. That point still has not been demonstrated.