The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished

[ScottA]

Don't make me scroll through old posts to find where you implied the second coming of Jesus Christ will not be literal. Even someone else on this forum pointed it out against you, so I have a witness of the words you yourself spoke. Like I said, no one truly having the holy spirit will deny that the second coming of Jesus Christ is literal.

No need. You went on and on about how only what happens in the world is literal, and so you do not understand the meaning of the word. Nonetheless, I corrected you...and yet you still go on and on.

 

[christiang]

No need. You went on and on about how only what happens in the world is literal, and so you do not understand the meaning of the word. Nonetheless, I corrected you...and yet you still go on and on.

Obviously there are figures of speech all over scripture. But then there is also literalness in scripture. A wise man will understand both, and interpret what the actual meaning a figurative passage has. You deny the literalness in favor that everything is just metaphors and figures of speech, surmising that the second coming is just figurative, implying that it will be something that the whole world won't actual see in the actual sky. You should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself a believer of Jesus Christ, denying his power to actually do what he would say he would do, literally.

 

[ScottA]

Obviously there are figures of speech all over scripture. But then there is also literalness in scripture. A wise man will understand both, and interpret what the actual meaning a figurative passage has. You deny the literalness in favor that everything is just metaphors and figures of speech, surmising that the second coming is just figurative, implying that it will be something that the whole world won't actual see in the actual sky. You should be ashamed of yourself for calling yourself a believer of Jesus Christ, denying his power to actually do what he would say he would do, literally.

There you go again - misusing the word "literal."

How do I say this nicely?

God is "spirit." He is "literal."

The world was "created", is "physical" and "passing away." It is "created." ...Look that word up. It is "physical" (rather than literal) and "passing away." Look that up too.

 

[christiang]

There you go again - misusing the word "literal."

How do I say this nicely?

God is "spirit." He is "literal."

The world was "created", is "physical" and "passing away." It is "created." ...Look that word up. It is "physical" (rather than literal) and "passing away." Look that up too.

Spirit is literal, it is not figurative nor metaphoric. Do you not know that the Greek and Hebrew word for spirit means wind, air? That's because spirit is physical air, if you have any sort of modern intelligence in science, you would've learned that the molecules of air around us are tiny physical atoms, like the tiny physical atoms of your body, but because they have different physical properties, we cannot see them, nor we can grab air. When you breath in air, you are breathing in spirit. That's what gives us life. Even animals have this same spirit. And there's a reason for this, which i won't get into right now. Now, if I have a dream about a car, the car is figurative. If I drive a car that is parked outside, that is literal, because the car actually exists. If Jesus Christ said he is coming, and that all eyes will behold them, this is literal. He will actually come. It won't be some sort of mental dream people will experience, he will literally come and be seen by the world, and the world will be terrified of his glorious physical appearance. He was taken up to heaven in a body that could eat, be seen, be felt, and be touched. He will return with that same physical body that can be seen, be felt, and be touched. He comes to destroy the earth. The building you are probably in right now, will one day become rubble. Because all the cities of the world will collapse shortly after his coming. This is literal, not figure of speech.

 

[bbyrd009]

He will return with that same physical body that can be seen, be felt, and be touched.

and nevermind all that "body of Christ" jazz, huh

 

[ScottA]

Spirit is literal, it is not figurative nor metaphoric. Do you not know that the Greek and Hebrew word for spirit means wind, air? That's because spirit is physical air, if you have any sort of modern intelligence in science, you would've learned that the molecules of air around us are tiny physical atoms, like the tiny physical atoms of your body, but because they have different physical properties, we cannot see them, nor we can grab air. When you breath in air, you are breathing in spirit. That's what gives us life. Even animals have this same spirit. And there's a reason for this, which i won't get into right now. Now, if I have a dream about a car, the car is figurative. If I drive a car that is parked outside, that is literal, because the car actually exists. If Jesus Christ said he is coming, and that all eyes will behold them, this is literal. He will actually come. It won't be some sort of mental dream people will experience, he will literally come and be seen by the world, and the world will be terrified of his glorious physical appearance. He was taken up to heaven in a body that could eat, be seen, be felt, and be touched. He will return with that same physical body that can be seen, be felt, and be touched. He comes to destroy the earth. The building you are probably in right now, will one day become rubble. Because all the cities of the world will collapse shortly after his coming. This is literal, not figure of speech.

Again, I did not say that spirit was not literal, but rather that it is what is literal, and yet the world is only a manifestation (not literal in the same way).

But you are sorely mistaken. Spirit is not "air." The lord of the "air" is Satan.

As for Jesus' return, all eyes do indeed see Him, but not like one sees "a car outside." His kingdom is not of this world...and He will be seen in His glory, not in the world. Scripture/Jesus clearly said, "The world will see me no more."

So...the problem here, is that you are struggling with the difference between what is spirit and what is manifest. But you are basing what is spirit on your knowledge of what is manifest - which is backwards. The world is a mere manifest "image" of a literal truth on high - it's only a picture...an image. And like a photograph of a literal thing, the world is burned up, and what remains - is like nothing you have ever seen...certainly not like "a car parked outside." So...if you want to call your photo album view of life "literal"...you are wrong. And if your pictures all get burned up - what they are a picture of, is what is literal...not your pictures, and not the ashes that remain.

 

[christiang]

Again, I did not say that spirit was not literal, but rather that it is what is literal, and yet the world is only a manifestation (not literal in the same way).

But you are sorely mistaken. Spirit is not "air." The lord of the "air" is Satan.

As for Jesus' return, all eyes do indeed see Him, but not like one sees "a car outside." His kingdom is not of this world...and He will be seen in His glory, not in the world. Scripture/Jesus clearly said, "The world will see me no more."

So...the problem here, is that you are struggling with the difference between what is spirit and what is manifest. But you are basing what is spirit on your knowledge of what is manifest - which is backwards. The world is a mere manifest "image" of a literal truth on high - it's only a picture...an image. And like a photograph of a literal thing, the world is burned up, and what remains - is like nothing you have ever seen...certainly not like "a car parked outside." So...if you want to call your photo album view of life "literal"...you are wrong. And if your pictures all get burned up - what they are a picture of, is what is literal...not your pictures, and not the ashes that remain.

The scriptures say spirit is air. In fact, there exist no distinction between spirit and air in the original languages, they are the same word. So in fact, you saying spirit is not air is like saying a car is not a vehicle. They are synonymous. But because of your lack of understanding, you think they are two completely different things, when in fact they are the same thing. Now, let me educate on the two kinds of spirits there are,

1. There is the spirit that is air. Gives us all life, men and animals. We all breath it to live. That is our spirit, which gives us consciousness and awareness. Once that breath departs, our body and soul dies. The body returns to the ground, the soul goes to Sheol, and the spirit returns to the air.
2. Then there beings are made of spirit, which are not bodies of flesh like you and I have, but bodies made of air, hence why spirits are invisible to the eye, and also able to enter our bodies, through our breath. Just like angels can turn into fire, like the angel that appeared to Moses in a burning bush, angels can turn into air. Any being that is turned into air is then called a spirit. If he is a being from above, as in a holy angel, then he is called a holy spirit when he takes this form. This body in the form of air is also what is called a "spiritual body", because it is body that can take form of air.

I have an expanded study on these matters with scriptures in these two studies,
The Soul and Spirit of the Natural Body, and the Spiritual Body of the First Resurrection | Wisdom of God
The Holy Spirit is an Angel, and Each Believer Receives a Holy Spirit | Wisdom of God

These are literal things.

 

[ScottA]

The scriptures say spirit is air. In fact, there exist no distinction between spirit and air in the original languages, they are the same word. So in fact, you saying spirit is not air is like saying a car is not a vehicle. They are synonymous. But because of your lack of understanding, you think they are two completely different things, when in fact they are the same thing. Now, let me educate on the two kinds of spirits there are,

1. There is the spirit that is air. Gives us all life, men and animals. We all breath it to live. That is our spirit, which gives us consciousness and awareness. Once that breath departs, our body and soul dies. The body returns to the ground, the soul goes to Sheol, and the spirit returns to the air.
2. Then there beings are made of spirit, which are not bodies of flesh like you and I have, but bodies made of air, hence why spirits are invisible to the eye, and also able to enter our bodies, through our breath. Just like angels can turn into fire, like the angel that appeared to Moses in a burning bush, angels can turn into air. Any being that is turned into air is then called a spirit. If he is a being from above, as in a holy angel, then he is called a holy spirit when he takes this form. This body in the form of air is also what is called a "spiritual body", because it is body that can take form of air.

I have an expanded study on these matters with scriptures in these two studies,
The Soul and Spirit of the Natural Body, and the Spiritual Body of the First Resurrection | Wisdom of God
The Holy Spirit is an Angel, and Each Believer Receives a Holy Spirit | Wisdom of God

These are literal things.

You refer to interpretations, the result of the confounding of all language at the tower of Babel...which are simply wrong.

Air is air, and the prince of the air is Satan. But spirit is spirit...and not of this world.

 

[christiang]

You refer to interpretations, the result of the confounding of all language at the tower of Babel...which are simply wrong.

Air is air, and the prince of the air is Satan. But spirit is spirit...and not of this world.

Its so hard to reason with stubborn people, somehow you did not understand the implication of "there exist no distinction between spirit and air in the original languages, they are the same word".

In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.” (Hebrews 1:7 [NIV])

Now about the angels He says: “He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire.” (Hebrews 1:7 [BSB])

Spirit, wind, they are the same word, in both the Hebrew, and in the Greek.

 

[ScottA]

Its so hard to reason with stubborn people, somehow you did not understand the implication of "there exist no distinction between spirit and air in the original languages, they are the same word".

In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.” (Hebrews 1:7 [NIV])

Now about the angels He says: “He makes His angels winds, His servants flames of fire.” (Hebrews 1:7 [BSB])

Spirit, wind, they are the same word, in both the Hebrew, and in the Greek.

Your language skills have failed you.

As for reason: Do the same thing with the word "god", and tell me they all refer to the same God.

 

[Rev20]

No evidence, are you kidding?

No, I am not kidding.

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])

Who was "us"?

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 [NIV])

Who are "those"?

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

You answered my previous question, who are "those"? "Those" were the ones God foreknew. So, now my question is, "who did God foreknow?

Who accuses against the chosen of God? God is the one justifying. (Romans 8:33 [ABP])

How does that verse add to the context Paul's statement in 28-30??

Paul, a bondman of God, and apostle of Jesus Christ, for belief of the chosen of God, and full knowledge of truth, of the one according to piety; (Titus 1:1 [ABP])

Who was Paul referring to when speaking of the "chosen of God"?

[The KJV reads, "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect . . . "]

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ESV])

Who was Paul's audience? Who were those chosen to be the firstfruits?

Rev

 

[christiang]

No, I am not kidding.



Who was "us"?



Who are "those"?



You answered my previous question, who are "those"? "Those" were the ones God foreknew. So, now my question is, "who did God foreknow?



How does that verse add to the context Paul's statement in 28-30??



Who was Paul referring to when speaking of the "chosen of God"?

[The KJV reads, "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect . . . "]



Who was Paul's audience? Who were those chosen to be the firstfruits?

Rev

Whoever ends up saved are the ones that are chosen. Don't you know that even the outcome of a roll of a dice is determined by God?

We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

You lack understanding of God. I suggest you read this study concerning predestination Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice | Wisdom of God .

 

[Rev20]

Whoever ends up saved are the ones that are chosen.

There is no evidence of that. To the contrary, there are those saved by free will (the Gentiles and broken branches of Israel who no longer abide in unbelief -- Rom 11:20-23), and there are the chosen ones (the faithful remnant of Israel, which is the election according to grace -- Rom 11:1-5). Joel foretold it, here:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered [free will!]: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call [the remnant of Israel]." --Joel 2:32 KJV

Notice the "and"! As you can see, there are those who "are called", and those who "call".

Don't you know that even the outcome of a roll of a dice is determined by God? We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

That is true for casting lots, but God's salvation is based on repentance, except for the remnant of Israel who were called (see Joel 2:32, above, and Rom 11:28-29).

You lack understanding of God. I suggest you read this study concerning predestination Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice | Wisdom of God .

I am already quite familiar with the false doctrines of Augustine and Calvin. They treat God as little more than a glorified computer programmer and micro-manager. My God is greater and more powerful, far beyond comprehension.

You not only lack understanding of God, but you seem uninterested in learning of him, preferring instead the doctrines of mere men.

Rev

 

[Richard_oti]

Its so hard to reason with stubborn people

So that why it is so hard to reason with you.

 

[Richard_oti]

If working on the Sabbath is sin, then explain how the priests were able to work on the Sabbath doing temple duty? Or how the disciples were able to pick up grain on the Sabbath when a man mentioned in the Law was condemned to death for merely picking up wood on the Sabbath?

So in saying that, do you also consider yourself one of the "royal priesthood"? The Kohanim had duties that were appointed by YHVH to be done upon shabat. Need I reveal those to you?

It is unlawful to harvest upon shabat. It is lawful to eat. There is a difference.

Was the man merely picking up sticks, or was he gathering wood? And for what purpose do you suppose he was gathering this wood?

That you even ask such questions is all too revealing.

 

[Richard_oti]

They are not equivalent examples, for meat and milk are still meat and milk whether you boil them together, or serve them together. Whereas washing of hands before performing temple duty is not the same as washing of hands before eating. By mere implication of your unequal analogy, anyone could say, oh you must wash your hands before going outside because the priests wash their hands before entering the temple. It is not an equivalent analogy.

Well that one went over your head. You must be short, because it wasn't even a lofty example and it went so far over your head that perhaps I should be concerned.

Both of the extra-cirricular / added "laws of men": do not store milk and meat and the washing of hands, are extensions of / from the Torah. That you can not even see that ... oy vey.

If "do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk", means that you can't store milk and meat together, nor can you eat of them together: Do you eat / use butter, sour cream, cottage cheese or any other milk product when you consume any form of meat?

That you can't see how ludicrous this is, really makes me wonder.

 

[Richard_oti]

How have I broken the Sabbath?

You have attempted to change one of the appointed times of YHVH to something that it is not. In another post, you clearly stated as much, even giving permission, your own blessing upon it in specifically saying "it doesn't matter". Yet you claim that you teach obedience to the law. Not only that, that you teach it "exactly".

 

[Richard_oti]

According to you it is sin to separate milk and cheese in regard to the command of not boiling a kid in milk?

<chuckle> Did I say it was "sin"? How you are getting that impression, I do not know. However, to not boil a kid in it's mother's milk, does not require not having a glass of milk with meat. Nor not having butter on your toast with your breakfast steak.

You are truly being stubborn to the point of being ludicrous with regard to this. What was it you said about "stubborn" people and reasoning with them?

 

[Richard_oti]

Partial obedience? If I'm going above and beyond in obedience to the command of God, how is that partial, if not above and beyond? If anything, it is you who is being partial in obedience to the command by not separating your milk and cheese. So out of the two, the one with lesser righteousness is you, not me, who wants to not be at fault in anything I do.

<hearty chuckle> No, you are partially obedient in some matters, and you are over the top in others. Not above and beyond, but outright "over the top".

Alright, you win, I am clearly the lesser of us. And, my "sins" of having cheese with a burger and a glass of milk, are willful and unrepentant.

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth aught with a high hand, whether he be home-born or a sojourner, the same blasphemeth YHVH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he hath despised the word of YHVH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[christiang]

There is no evidence of that. To the contrary, there are those saved by free will (the Gentiles and broken branches of Israel who no longer abide in unbelief -- Rom 11:20-23), and there are the chosen ones (the faithful remnant of Israel, which is the election according to grace -- Rom 11:1-5). Joel foretold it, here:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered [free will!]: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call [the remnant of Israel]." --Joel 2:32 KJV

Notice the "and"! As you can see, there are those who "are called", and those who "call".




That is true for casting lots, but God's salvation is based on repentance, except for the remnant of Israel who were called (see Joel 2:32, above, and Rom 11:28-29).




I am already quite familiar with the false doctrines of Augustine and Calvin. They treat God as little more than a glorified computer programmer and micro-manager. My God is greater and more powerful, far beyond comprehension.

You not only lack understanding of God, but you seem uninterested in learning of him, preferring instead the doctrines of mere men.

Rev

Your god is lesser, because you think he has no control over the works of his own hands, whereas the God I believe has predestined all things for his own good purpose, in accordance to scripture. The scriptures clearly teach predestination and choice of God. So, it is you who on the contrary, refuses to come understand the truth, but rather, you embrace the false teachings of men that deny this truth. Your lack of understanding concerning predestination shows you are not approved by God, for anyone who is chosen by God will believe and understand this teaching, for it is impossible for anyone having holy spirit to not know that his his own salvation first came by the choice of God. We know that God chooses way before we were born, hence,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 [NIV])

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

Who are those who are chosen? Both Jews and Gentiles, who have all been called, and who will inherit the kingdom of God,

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44 [NIV])

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:28-29 [NIV])

This is why it is not of who runs or wills, but of who God chooses to demonstrate mercy on that will be saved,

So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32 [BLB])

And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory— (Romans 9:23 [NETBIBLE])

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” (Romans 9:15 [NIV])

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some… (Romans 9:18 [NLT])

for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. (Philippians 2:13 [NIV])