Church

[101G]

amadeus, bol is lost as three left shoes. when he refused to answer any of my questions I knew he was false. the book of Revelation gets them every time.

be blessed in Christ Jesus.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, indeed, but we would hope to at some point see Him face to face, would we not? As did David and Paul, we have also been seeking His face have we not? Some people assure us that they have already seen more than David and Paul and that they already know God fully. How well do they know Him, I wonder...

i dunno if it is early exposure to the Exodus Story or what, but i am fairly convinced that even if one could like have a cup of tea with God (in His Fullness) or whatever, it would not be the pleasant experience that is imagined, simply due to the nature of God. i guess practically speaking we could only have tea with whatever manifestation God chose to present anyway, right, unless we are so naive as to believe that we could command God's undivided attention, Who is omnipresent?

if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father
If you knew Me, you would know My Father as well.

so imo you don't have to wonder, up there, which of course is what you meant anyway, right :)

 

[bbyrd009]

In Scripture, there were Jewish Christians and Gentle Christians

don't think so, wadr. Even if they believed that

 

[101G]

let's hit a few of these scriptures given to support a 3 person Godhead.

#1. 1 Thessalonians 3:11 "Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you".
what's wrong right off the bat. the term God according to some suppose to contain the three person already, (Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit). so why say God "AND" Father. is not the Father included in the term "GOD". we can see this error clearly.

#2. 1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these THREE are ONE".
We can quickly eliminate this one. "THESE" three are one. THESE are titles, Father, son, and Word. if the scripture would have said, "THEY" are one then yes, because "THEY" would indicate PERSONS. but the scripture states "these" which indicate TITLES of the SAME PERSON, as the titles in Revelation 1:3 and 4 do.

#3. The Father is God
Ephesians 4:6 “One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all"
see #1. and two if the Father is God, then the Son is God. STOP you have two God already.

#4. The Father is God
Isaiah 63:16 for you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O Lord, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name. Is God Lord or LORD.
again he used a bad verse to prove his point, it support what I have been saying all along. here he is using Lord as the Father, and not the LORD. for JESUS is Lord (in flesh) and LORD (without flesh) and to top that off, he using the redeemer as Father, whom he identifies in scriptures as the Son (Lord). is not the Lord Jesus the redeemer? and is not the LORD the redeemer? yes the same person. the LORD is the redeemer to come, or to be sent (IN FLESH). Titus 2:13 & 14 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works".
the Lord Jesus is the GREAT GOD and SAVIOUR, he alone is GOD. he's the Lord (in flesh) and the LORD (OT without flesh). supportive scripture, Isaiah 60:16 "Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob".

Understand People. the LORD is JESUS without flesh in the OT. and the Lord is JESUS in the NT (in flesh). the SAME PERSON, only diversified. and diversified means "OFFSPRING". Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star". the root is before, (LORD) the FIRST, and the "offspring" is after, (Lord) the LAST. the same person, supportive scripture

A. Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God".

B. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he".

C. Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last".

JESUS is the "BEGINNING" OT (LORD). JESUS is the "END" NT (Lord)

all of this is explain by the one word "diversity" or offspring. it's the Greek word,
G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
"diversity" is the word that the KJV can translate offspring as. and this is the word I use. there is nothing new here, only now revealed. diversity was taught by the Lord Jesus, he taught his apostles, and they by him (the Lord Jesus taught the church early fathers, the disciples.

I have the correct doctrine, and it's not man made like all others. this doctrine explains the Godhead and it's mysteries. THIS DOCTRINE CANNOT BE EASILY EXPLAINED AWAY. it's here to stay. this doctrine removes the stumbling block many have to the truth. Oh the joy of knowing "diversified oneness".

be blessed.

 

[amadeus]

i dunno if it is early exposure to the Exodus Story or what, but i am fairly convinced that even if one could like have a cup of tea with God (in His Fullness) or whatever, it would not be the pleasant experience that is imagined, simply due to the nature of God. i guess practically speaking we could only have tea with whatever manifestation God chose to present anyway, right, unless we are so naive as to believe that we could command God's undivided attention, Who is omnipresent?

if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father
If you knew Me, you would know My Father as well.

so imo you don't have to wonder, up there, which of course is what you meant anyway, right :)

You are certainly correct as I understand it without many changes being made. What is it that will be changed? We will certainly be more like the Father, but we really don't know about what that is and how close He will let us approach. We all have some ideas and some people want to insist that their ideas are irrefutable facts. What we really know is only what God has shown us and I doubt that those who are so insistent have seen much more than us... if any. Wanting it to be doesn't make it so. The following verse indicates an approach but how close and how like Him can we be or will He allow us to be?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

 

[101G]

The Holy Spirit is God
John 14:16-18 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you *ANOTHER Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you".
yes the Holy Spirit is God. the same one person.

edification time. God himself is "a" Spirit, cap "S". If God sends his Spirit, and God himself is a Spirit. Then you have two options. Either there is another Spirit, which is an error. Or that he, God, himself came. the only other alternative is there is another God (for God is a Spirit), and one have two separate and complete God's.

somewhere, or at sometime common sense have to kick in.

peace in Christ Jesus.

 

[amadeus]

amadeus, bol is lost as three left shoes. when he refused to answer any of my questions I knew he was false. the book of Revelation gets them every time.

be blessed in Christ Jesus.

It is unfortunately that people get locked as they so often do into often heated discussions on doctrine without knowing what is already known by the other side. How wrong are they and how right am I coming forth when what matters most is being on God's side. But assumptions or presumptions are made.

 

[amadeus]

The Holy Spirit is God
John 14:16-18 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you *ANOTHER Helper, that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you".
yes the Holy Spirit is God. the same one person.

edification time. God himself is "a" Spirit, cap "S". If God sends his Spirit, and God himself is a Spirit. Then you have two options. Either there is another Spirit, which is an error. Or that he, God, himself came. the only other alternative is there is another God (for God is a Spirit), and one have two separate and complete God's.

somewhere, or at sometime common sense have to kick in.

peace in Christ Jesus.

But... when it comes down to it, what is it we obtain from God by common sense?

 

[101G]

But... when it comes down to it, what is it we obtain from God by common sense?

his word, the teaching of the Holy Spirit. John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you".

 

[amadeus]

his word, the teaching of the Holy Spirit. John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you".

It is a good verse and I use it a lot, but not by common sense. Others use the same verse and understand nothing, or worse, as I see it, they misunderstand it.

If someone decides ahead of time that certain others [outside of their group of course] cannot receive direct revelation from God today, then those outsiders [you and me for example] are left without a leg on which to stand. What we should then do [according to them] is simply knuckle under and follow them without regard to what we may understand from the scripture or what the Spirit may day to our hearts. The are, supposedly, the perfect leaders.

 

[101G]

It is a good verse and I use it a lot, but not by common sense. Others use the same verse and understand nothing, or worse, as I see it, they misunderstand it.

If someone decides ahead of time that certain others [outside of their group of course] cannot receive direct revelation from God today, then those outsiders [you and me for example] are left without a leg on which to stand. What we should then do [according to them] is simply knuckle under and follow them without regard to what we may understand from the scripture or what the Spirit may day to our hearts. The are, supposedly, the perfect leaders.

I know what you're saying. but one thing that is missing is that many are not reading the bible with the Holy Ghost, so how can he bring all things to our remembrance, whatsoever the Lord have said unto us, IF WE HAVEN'T READ HIS WORD IN THE FIRST PLACE. I remember when I started to read the bible in earnest for myself without the Holy Spirit at first. many of the things that I was taught by my bible teachers was not lining up with the scriptures. still, since I didn't know I did something that was a forbidden fruit, I started to ask questions. and come to find out many didn't have a answer, or gave a flip answer. well I got mad, at myself, for being ignorant in God word so I did the best thing that ever happen to me I asked God to teach me, and he did.

and now I'm free, free to learn and keep on learning. but it took God to free me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

don't think so, wadr. Even if they believed that

The Apostles were Jewish Christians.
Cornelius was a Gentile Christian.

Don't you ever tire being proven wrong?

 

[amadeus]

I know what you're saying. but one thing that is missing is that many are not reading the bible with the Holy Ghost, so how can he bring all things to our remembrance, whatsoever the Lord have said unto us, IF WE HAVEN'T READ HIS WORD IN THE FIRST PLACE.

What you speak of is what I read in the scripture as eating His flesh [reading or hearing scripture or something else from God] and drinking His blood [this for me is the quickening Spirit or the Holy Ghost]. Jesus is very detailed on this in John chapter 6 but people have built another type and shadow to immerse themselves in instead of the real thing. The real thing is the Word and Spirit. Without the Spirit, the Word is only the word and is dead. With the Spirit it becomes the Life of which Jesus spoke. The misunderstandings and consequent misusing of these ideas from scripture has resulted in the thousands of denominations that use essentially the same Bible but disagree strongly with each other on what they may consider essential points.

I remember when I started to read the bible in earnest for myself without the Holy Spirit at first. many of the things that I was taught by my bible teachers was not lining up with the scriptures. still, since I didn't know I did something that was a forbidden fruit, I started to ask questions. and come to find out many didn't have a answer, or gave a flip answer. well I got mad, at myself, for being ignorant in God word so I did the best thing that ever happen to me I asked God to teach me, and he did.

and now I'm free, free to learn and keep on learning. but it took God to free me.

Aye, I hear you. When I first received the baptism of the Holy Ghost, I knew almost nothing about what the scriptures said or meant. I was fortunate in having one brother filled with the Holy Ghost who knew some right answers or knew that sometime the answer was simply "I don't know".

I was unfortunate [or LOL maybe it was fortunate] that my first pastor upon receiving the Holy Ghost would not answer many of my direct questions. Looking back now I believe that he did not know the answers but would not admit that to me.

It took me a long time...years... to find out what my worst problem was. Discovering what it was did not solve it, but it got me heading in the right direction.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Ah, my friend, but you [2nd person singular] describe the YOU [2nd person plural] as the Catholic Church, while I describe it as the people who believe in and love Him, which includes many who are definitely not formal Catholics. You [2nd person singular] need to be sure of your antecedents before drawing too many conclusions.

One of the most basic rules of hermeneutics is the following:
a. When Jesus addressed the Apostles and inner circle - He was addressing the Leaders of His Church.
b. When Jesus addressed the crowds - He was addressing ALL of us.

Luke 10: 16, Jesus addressed the "72". We know from the Early Church Father, Hippolytus that these "72" were the some of the first leaders of the Church. In fact, he names them - and they include Ananias from Damascus who baptized Paul., St. Luke, St. Stephen and St. Mark.
Hippolytus was a disciple of Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of Apostle John.

In Luke 10:16, Jesus was addressing the Authority of the Church - not every individual.
[/QUOTE]

Even your official church position does not call all of the formal non-Catholic members lost. Yet you do. Do you have that kind of authority? You quickly speak of non-Catholics as not having the authority to speak as you do because it opposes what you call the church, but you act as if you do. What happens to a person who believes in God but is ignorant of what the Catholic Church would call essential things for salvation?

This is a flat-out lie.
I have never condemned ANY person, Catholic or non-Catholic - and neither does the Church.

We have already discussed this in another thread. I gave you the official stance of the Church on Invincible Ignorance, which is paragraph 847 of the Catechism.

Try being honest for a change, hmmm?

We have to believe what God's messengers correctly [according God] speak. Would you state definitely that God has no messengers outside of the formal structure of the Catholic Church?

Jesus built ONE Church - not tens of thousands.

His Church is represented by leaders who succeeded the Apostles down through the centuries.
It is not represented by those who broke away from His Church and continue to splinter. They need to come home to His Church.

 

[BreadOfLife]

you have not answered one of mine, revelation 1:3 & 4 well?.

I have done nothing BUT answer your questions.
Now, it's time to start answering mine.

When you can do that - I will answer more of yours.

 

[101G]

I have done nothing BUT answer your questions.
Now, it's time to start answering mine.

When you can do that - I will answer more of yours.

please give me the post number where you answered the Rev 1:3 & 4 question.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I have the real church fathers

"The disciples Knew that Jesus was God"
examples,
#1. Stephen, saw God/JESUS as the Right Hand, Glorified. and you have no clue what the ARM of God, or the Right hand of God mean... (smile).

#2. Ananias declare the Lord Jesus as God of the fathers, which you found out today...... (smile).

#3. John in Revelation declare the Lord Jesus as God, one person, which you know that your assessment is wrong... (smile).

#4. Jude: Jude 1:25 "To the only wise God our Saviour". and that's JESUS.

see this is nothing new, nor man made...... . just knowledge you don't have....

so I have the first church fathers.

WRONG, as always.

#1 - First of all - Stephen saw Jesus STANDING AT the right hand of God

#2 - Read closely . . .
Acts 22:14
"Then he said: 'The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth.

In other words, Einstein - Ananias said: "The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see Jesus and to hear words from his mouth."

#3 Jesus IS God. He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity. No contradictions here.

#4 - Read closely . . .
Jude 1:25
To the only God our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory and magnificence, empire and power, before all ages, and now, and for all ages of ages. Amen.
AGAIN, pointing to the Trinity.

Don't just quote the Bible until you LEARN what it is saying . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

please give me the post number where you answered the Rev 1:3 & 4 question.

Like I said - I have answered question after question after question - and YOU have answered nothing.
It's YOUR turn now . . .

 

[101G]

#1 - First of all - Stephen saw Jesus STANDING AT the right hand of God

Let's take this one step at a time. what do "Right hand of God means?"

 

[BreadOfLife]

If the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son - then the Holy Spirit is not simply the Spirit of the Father.

No one person come from two different persons. if the Father is not the son and the HOLY SPIRIT is not the Father how can he come from either?. for your very own doctrine contradicts that. if the father is not the son nor the Holy Spirit how can he come from either of them?.

With God - ALL things are possible.
Stop thinking like a flawed human being and try thinking like a person of faith.