Church

[101G]

Like I said - I have answered question after question after question - and YOU have answered nothing.
It's YOUR turn now . . .

not the revelation 1:3 &4 question. look just answer that one... (smile). if not you loose. so don't snooooooz

 

[BreadOfLife]

Let's take this one step at a time. what do "Right hand of God means?"

No - let's start with what YOU said.

YOU misrepresented this verse by saying that Jesus WAS the right hand. The verse doesn't say that.
It says that Jesus is STANDING AT the right hand of God.

Try being honest for a change . . .

 

[101G]

With God - ALL things are possible.
Stop thinking like a flawed human being and try thinking like a person of faith.

LOL, flip question, meaning you don't know, just like with the "Right Hand of God", can't wait

 

[BreadOfLife]

not the revelation 1:3 &4 question. look just answer that one... (smile). if not you loose. so don't snooooooz

I couldn't care less if you claim victory.
My job here is to expose people like you - and I HAVE.

The mere fact that I presented 35 verses that prove the Trinity - several pages ago - and YOU have failed to address them means that YOU lose. Every person reading this can see that . . .

 

[101G]

so I take this as you will never answer Rev 1:3 & 4..... LOL.
I see fakes all the time. to smoke them out just ask a simple question that kills their doctoral beliefs dead as a doorknob. and the revelation 1:3 & 4 question is one of them. just like the Revelation 1:1 question.

well you lose, bye.....

 

[bbyrd009]

The Apostles were Jewish Christians.
Cornelius was a Gentile Christian.

Don't you ever tire being proven wrong?

they might have thought of themselves that way, but that does not make it true, as Paul makes clear.
(Not sure if this is in the DRB or not any more?)

We have other instances of this, John Baptist denying he is Elijah, when we know that he is, and a few others.

Court is adjourned, and you are forgiven

 

[101G]

they might have thought of themselves that way, but that does not make it true, as Paul makes clear. (Not sure if this is in the DRB or not any more?)

We have other instances of this, John Baptist denying he is Elijah, when we know that he is, and a few others.

Court is adjourned, and you are forgiven

I don't know what we're going to do with you........ (smile). but I like that "John Baptist denying he is Elijah, when we know that he is". ................... LOL.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't know what we're going to do with you........ (smile). but I like that "John Baptist denying he is Elijah, when we know that he is". ................... LOL.

ha well either John was lying or Jesus was in any other interpretation, i guess?

 

[amadeus]

One of the most basic rules of hermeneutics is the following:

That word, hermeneutics, is one I heard for the first time on a Christian forum quite a few years ago. I certainly never read it in the Bible nor heard of it from any man of God I knew up until that time. It really is man's foolishness when it comes down to it. When a man seeks God in the right way to the world that is foolishness and that is where you and others come from with your hermeneutics. I am not saying that is may not at times be useful, but it alone will never bring us face to face with God.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." I Cor 1:21

a. When Jesus addressed the Apostles and inner circle - He was addressing the Leaders of His Church.

b. When Jesus addressed the crowds - He was addressing ALL of us.[/quote]

And when did God decide this? I do not believe that He did and your premise to me is therefore foolishness.

Luke 10: 16, Jesus addressed the "72". We know from the Early Church Father, Hippolytus that these "72" were the some of the first leaders of the Church. In fact, he names them - and they include Ananias from Damascus who baptized Paul., St. Luke, St. Stephen and St. Mark.
Hippolytus was a disciple of Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp, a disciple of Apostle John.

If someone used logic to determine truth, should we always follow him? Did not Socrates come up with logical conclusions that were seemingly irrefutable? All Socrates proved and all you have proven is that men can build a house that appear to us to be quite solid. So it is with the Catholic Church. They have found an answer for nearly every question a man might ask, and present then their finished product as the one and only true church. Have they done a better job than the leaders of Judaism in the time of Jesus?

No, the Jews has gone astray from the Spirit of the teachings of God as well as missing the letter of what was written in the scripture. The Catholics as a group have done worse for they have had more at their beginning than did the Jews. The follow verse explains the problem for those who are able to understand it:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. " Luke 12:48

The Baptist made it clear to those with eyes to see and with ears to hear:

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" Matt 3:11

Individuals within the group [the CC and the RCC] have followed the Way of Jesus, but the larger group which names itself as God's Church has missed the most important thing. They know many of the right words, but there is for the most part no Spirit and therefore no Life in it. How can the Body of Christ be dead? He was dead, but the three days are past. He has resurrected. The Holy Ghost has been poured out on whosoever will.

In

Luke 10:16, Jesus was addressing the Authority of the Church - not every individual.

This is a flat-out lie.
I have never condemned ANY person, Catholic or non-Catholic - and neither does the Church.

Have you not? My impression has been otherwise, but I could be mistaken. If I am then I sincerely apologize. I do not remember everything that you wrote and I am certainly no expert on the Catholic Church. It seemed to me that you were pressing the idea that a person who does not admit to and confess the authority of the Catholic Church could not approach God. Are you saying now that he can?

We have already discussed this in another thread. I gave you the official stance of the Church on Invincible Ignorance, which is paragraph 847 of the Catechism.

Try being honest for a change, hmmm?[/quote]

My friend I always try to be honest, but the scripture does say that every man is a liar. I admit to my part of that, but I believe that God is still working on me. You should not be so quick to call people liars or dishonest because they do not agree with you or they misunderstand what you believe. Are you not also sometimes a liar?

I know you believe you are correct, but so does the other guy. Most people who are not Catholic are NOT conspiring to undermine the good in Catholic Church. You might try to learn to touch the points of difference and discuss them instead of jumping so fast to the conclusion your opponent is purposely lying about something.

Jesus built ONE Church - not tens of thousands.

You seem to have forgotten that I previously agreed with you on this point. Does that make you forgetful or dishonest?

His Church is represented by leaders who succeeded the Apostles down through the centuries.
It is not represented by those who broke away from His Church and continue to splinter. They need to come home to His Church.

If we are not lost as you have stated above, why should we go to your church? Why won't you come to ours since we are supposed to be brothers in Christ in spite of our differences and the shortcomings on both sides?

The Church is all of God's people rather than an organization. It is also not a smaller group of ministers who oversee the larger group.

 

[101G]

ha well either John was lying or Jesus was in any other interpretation, i guess?

I thought you was just joking. John the Baptist was Elijah in spirit, way, character, or characteristics.
Luke 1:17 "And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord".

 

[bbyrd009]

That word, hermeneutics, is one I heard for the first time on a Christian forum quite a few years ago. I certainly never read it in the Bible nor heard of it from any man of God I knew up until that time. It really is man's foolishness when it comes down to it.

yup

It seemed to me that you were pressing the idea that a person who does not admit to and confess the authority of the Catholic Church could not approach God. Are you saying now that he can?

no, he won't ever say lol. good luck there

 

[BreadOfLife]

they might have thought of themselves that way, but that does not make it true, as Paul makes clear.
(Not sure if this is in the DRB or not any more?)

We have other instances of this, John Baptist denying he is Elijah, when we know that he is, and a few others.

Court is adjourned, and you are forgiven

Soooo, the Apostles weren't Jewish??
Cornelius wasn't a Gentile??

What Bible are YOU reading??

 

[bbyrd009]

Soooo, the Apostles weren't Jewish??
Cornelius wasn't a Gentile??

What Bible are YOU reading??

the One that says "no Jew or Gentile in the kingdom."

meaning that there is always more than one side to truth, not that you are completely wrong or anything, just that there is more to the story. what ppl say in the Bible is often their perspective, not necessarily truth as God sees it.

 

[bbyrd009]

I thought you was just joking.

ha, no.

John the Baptist was Elijah

yet he denied this to the Levites in...the opening of John? i think? ya

 

[BreadOfLife]

That word, hermeneutics, is one I heard for the first time on a Christian forum quite a few years ago. I certainly never read it in the Bible nor heard of it from any man of God I knew up until that time. It really is man's foolishness when it comes down to it. When a man seeks God in the right way to the world that is foolishness and that is where you and others come from with your hermeneutics. I am not saying that is may not at times be useful, but it alone will never bring us face to face with God.

This answers one giant cop-out.

Hermeneutics is just the art and science of Biblical interpretation - your rejection of the word, notwithstanding.
Don't forget - "Bible" isn't in the bible either . . .

And when did God decide this? I do not believe that He did and your premise to me is therefore foolishness.

It's only "foolishness" because you can't argue with the logic behind it.

If someone used logic to determine truth, should we always follow him? Did not Socrates come up with logical conclusions that were seemingly irrefutable? All Socrates proved and all you have proven is that men can build a house that appear to us to be quite solid. So it is with the Catholic Church. They have found an answer for nearly every question a man might ask, and present then their finished product as the one and only true church. Have they done a better job than the leaders of Judaism in the time of Jesus?

No, the Jews has gone astray from the Spirit of the teachings of God as well as missing the letter of what was written in the scripture. The Catholics as a group have done worse for they have had more at their beginning than did the Jews. The follow verse explains the problem for those who are able to understand it:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. " Luke 12:48

The Baptist made it clear to those with eyes to see and with ears to hear:
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:" Matt 3:11

Individuals within the group [the CC and the RCC] have followed the Way of Jesus, but the larger group which names itself as God's Church has missed the most important thing. They know many of the right words, but there is for the most part no Spirit and therefore no Life in it. How can the Body of Christ be dead? He was dead, but the three days are past. He has resurrected. The Holy Ghost has been poured out on whosoever will.

This is just another cop-out.

The truth is ALWAYS more logical than an opinion.
Logic is not a "bad" thing when understood according to God's will.

Have you not? My impression has been otherwise, but I could be mistaken. If I am then I sincerely apologize. I do not remember everything that you wrote and I am certainly no expert on the Catholic Church. It seemed to me that you were pressing the idea that a person who does not admit to and confess the authority of the Catholic Church could not approach God. Are you saying now that he can?

My friend I always try to be honest, but the scripture does say that every man is a liar. I admit to my part of that, but I believe that God is still working on me. You should not be so quick to call people liars or dishonest because they do not agree with you or they misunderstand what you believe. Are you not also sometimes a liar?

Wrong.

I said that YOU were dishonest because you LIED by saying that I condemned people.
I NEVER have and you know it so don't lump me in with yourself because I don't lie.

I know you believe you are correct, but so does the other guy. Most people who are not Catholic are NOT conspiring to undermine the good in Catholic Church. You might try to learn to touch the points of difference and discuss them instead of jumping so fast to the conclusion your opponent is purposely lying about something.

And, ONE more time:
I don't care if a person doesn't believe in Catholic doctrine or if they simply "disagree".

I ONLY hold people accountable who choose to LIE about what the Church teaches - and there is PLENTY of that in this forum. Until now - it didn't include you, but that has also changed, unfortunately.

If we are not lost as you have stated above, why should we go to your church? Why won't you come to ours since we are supposed to be brothers in Christ in spite of our differences and the shortcomings on both sides?

The Church is all of God's people rather than an organization. It is also not a smaller group of ministers who oversee the larger group.

And I never said that you weren't eternally lost. I merely said that it isn't MY call - but God's.

As for being "brothers" in Christ - we may be - but separated brothers.

I'm only recently beginning to understand the extent of your heretical theology. If you reject the Trinity, which is what it sounds like - we may NOT be "brothers" in Christ. Brothers in Christ are Christians - and a Christian is one who does NOT reject the Triune Godhead.

The Church IS all of God's people.
However, in order to BE one of His people - you need to submit fully to the Authority of His Body (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
HAVE you?

 

[BreadOfLife]

the One that says "no Jew or Gentile in the kingdom."

meaning that there is always more than one side to truth, not that you are completely wrong or anything, just that there is more to the story. what ppl say in the Bible is often their perspective, not necessarily truth as God sees it.

In CHRIST.
However, if a person is a Mexican or African or Indian - they are that on this earth.

The Apostles were Jewish and converts like Cornelius were Gentiles - and no amount of your signature denial can change that.

 

[amadeus]

This answers one giant cop-out.

Hermeneutics is just the art and science of Biblical interpretation - your rejection of the word, notwithstanding.
Don't forget - "Bible" isn't in the bible either . . .

Bible simply means "books". It certainly is in the written Bible. You should check before making such a blanket statement:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. " Ecc 12:12

It's only "foolishness" because you can'

t argue with the logic behind it.

This is just another cop-out.

I could use logic against you or others for hours or days and never convince you of error. The same would be true of you against me. Logic is a tool which can be useful but alone it will not lead anyone into God's truth.

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

The truth is

ALWAYS more logical than an opinion.
Logic is not a "bad" thing when understood according to God's will.

No, the truth is not always more logical to a person who does not have Truth. To such a man truth is foolishness.

Wrong.

I said that YOU were dishonest because you LIED by saying that I condemned people.
I NEVER have and you know it so don't lump me in with yourself because I don't lie.

Everyone who has not overcome the world completely as Jesus overcame it does lie, even if it his lies are only unintentional ones.

And, ONE more time:
I don't care if a person doesn't believe in Catholic doctrine or if they simply "disagree".

You don't care? Did Jesus not care that most people around him did not agree with his message?

I ONLY hold people accountable who choose to LIE about what the Church teaches - and there is PLENTY of that in this forum. Until

now - it didn't include you, but that has

also changed, unfortunately.

As I say people do not usually choose to lie. There are exceptions, but they are that. You need to check in with God or even ask your priest about this. It seems to me to very judgmental in not a good way.

And I never said that you weren't eternally lost. I merely said that it isn't MY call - but God's.

Good! I am glad to hear that.

As for being "brothers" in Christ - we may be - but separated brothers.

I'm only recently beginning to understand the extent of your heretical theology. If you reject the Trinity, which is what it sounds like - we may NOT be "brothers" in Christ. Brothers in Christ are Christians - and a Christian is one who does NOT reject the Triune Godhead.

I know that you believe that, but as I said before only God gives the increase. A lot of Catholics and Protestants and Others never really are increased, but some in all categories are. Thank God for that!

The Church IS all of God's people.
However, in order to BE one of His people - you need to submit fully to the Authority of His Body (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).
HAVE you?

No, the Body must submit to the Head. The hand gives no orders of its own. The foot gives no orders of its own. The tongue gives no orders of it own. All orders for and to the parts of the Body of Christ come from its only head: Jesus.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Bible simply means "books". It certainly is in the written Bible. You should check before making such a blanket statement:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. " Ecc 12:12

Actually - it doesn't., although it is based on the word Biblios.
And the list of Books (Canon) that comprise the Bible isn't in the Bible - so, by YOUR standards it's "foolishness".

I could use logic against you or others for hours or days and never convince you of error. The same would be true of you against me. Logic is a tool which can be useful but alone it will not lead anyone into God's truth.

And, I already qualified it by saying that GOD'S logic is inerrant.

No, the truth is not always more logical to a person who does not have Truth. To such a man truth is foolishness.

And that is nothing more than relativism.
Truth is TRUTH - no matter WHO believes it to be.

Everyone who has not overcome the world completely as Jesus overcame it does lie, even if it his lies are only unintentional ones.

There is no such thing as an "unintentional" lie. That's called a "mistake".
YOUR lie was intentional.

You don't care? Did Jesus not care that most people around him did not agree with his message?

And there you go playing games again. I don't care in the sense that it doesn't make me angry, as YOU indicated.

As I say people do not usually choose to lie. There are exceptions, but they are that. You need to check in with God or even ask your priest about this. It seems to me to very judgmental in not a good way.

That is absolutely false.

There is NO such thing as an "unintentional" or "accidental" lie.
There are lies - and then there are mistakes.

I know that you believe that, but as I said before only God gives the increase. A lot of Catholics and Protestants and Others never really are increased, but some in all categories are. Thank God for that!

Another false statement.

While it's true that not ALL Catholics and Protestants are given increase - ONLY those who DO His will are given increase in "all" categories. You cannot be disobedient and claim to be in good standing with god.

No, the Body must submit to the Head. The hand gives no orders of its own. The foot gives no orders of its own. The tongue gives no orders of it own. All orders for and to the parts of the Body of Christ come from its only head: Jesus.

And, in case you haven't read the Bible lately - He gave His Church Supreme Authority - that WHATEVER His Church ordains or binds on earth will be ordained or bound in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

You cannot submit to Christ without submitting to the Authority of His Church.

 

[amadeus]

@BreadOfLife

You make me very tired and very sad. I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[bbyrd009]

In CHRIST.
However, if a person is a Mexican or African or Indian - they are that on this earth.

The Apostles were Jewish and converts like Cornelius were Gentiles - and no amount of your signature denial can change that.

well, an African can be a Jew, BoL, so we are having a semantics discussion now i guess