Subjective Religion vs Objective Christianity

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soul man

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Subjective religion objective Christianity

#1
Nothing works right for believers under the law or believers attempting to live the "kingdom message" without subjective religion, John 18:36,

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Christianity is objective, religion is subjective. The understanding of these two words gives the believer the victory in every day living that God intended.
Objective Christianity means the believer can do nothing, within himself, to save himself or to stay saved, Eph. 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Subjective religion puts the burden of being saved and staying saved on the believer. I call this subjective religion because it puts humans into self- works to become something they already are by being rebirthed in Christ, 1 John 3:8-9

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

A believer adopting a course of self- effort or self-works will eventually put the emphasis of Christian living on himself rather than on the Christ in him. Everything at this point can become "me-isms" like, this is "my life," I can live it like I want to. These are "my things" I can do what I want with them.
Life is mine, "my will and ways" are most important. I've got to look out for myself, "my feelings" are the way I have to live.

While all these ideas are human, they ignore God's plan for living and most of all ignore the Christ who lives in the believer. Sadly, modern theology has written a new script for believers who live like this. This is subjective religion where multitudes of believers believe that since they are humans everything must revolve around them.

Look in any Christian bookstore and you'll find the majority of subjects deal with what you can do to keep your salvation, or how to achieve as a good Christian, or how to have faith or power, or how to love yourself and others, or how to get the Holy Spirit, or how to get faith, or how to overcome frustration, cure mental health and be healed of all your diseases. I could go on and on, but these "how to" things lead believers to subjective religion where all the information puts the burden on them to be and to do. This happens even though Christ lives in them and Paul says Christ is our only life.

The fact is, if we follow Paul as he follows Christ and I live in the Epistles, we will know how to live the Christ-life that is in us. The Christ-life is objective-- a finished work at the cross and a grace work in its totality. The problem in Christianity is the gospel coming from Christ to Paul has not been preached. If we knew the Christ in us, Ephesians 4:20

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

we would never be in doubt as to who we are and what we are. Subjective religion has never had the answers and never will, but objective Christianity will produce a new creation in Christ.

The fact remains, a believers growth comes from the gospel he hears, reads, and understands. Not having a definite direction when a believer reads and studies the Scriptures, he will never find the true message of God that is for him. Without this direction, when he studies someone's books or hear's someone's message, he can be confused. Where does this direction come from? Basically it comes from the Holy Spirit, who's ministry is to teach the believer about the Christ that is already in him, John 14:20

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is the clear direction every ongoing believer will have. Efforts relating to listening or studying anything else not akin to learning the Christ living in the believer will amount to nothing. If the believer never comes to the fullness of Christ in his knowing, then anything else he may have learned is futile. (Read 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2.)
 

APAK

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#1
Nothing works right for believers under the law or believers attempting to live the "kingdom message" without subjective religion, John 18:36,

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Christianity is objective, religion is subjective. The understanding of these two words gives the believer the victory in every day living that God intended.
Objective Christianity means the believer can do nothing, within himself, to save himself or to stay saved, Eph. 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Subjective religion puts the burden of being saved and staying saved on the believer. I call this subjective religion because it puts humans into self- works to become something they already are by being rebirthed in Christ, 1 John 3:8-9

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

A believer adopting a course of self- effort or self-works will eventually put the emphasis of Christian living on himself rather than on the Christ in him. Everything at this point can become "me-isms" like, this is "my life," I can live it like I want to. These are "my things" I can do what I want with them.
Life is mine, "my will and ways" are most important. I've got to look out for myself, "my feelings" are the way I have to live.

While all these ideas are human, they ignore God's plan for living and most of all ignore the Christ who lives in the believer. Sadly, modern theology has written a new script for believers who live like this. This is subjective religion where multitudes of believers believe that since they are humans everything must revolve around them.

Look in any Christian bookstore and you'll find the majority of subjects deal with what you can do to keep your salvation, or how to achieve as a good Christian, or how to have faith or power, or how to love yourself and others, or how to get the Holy Spirit, or how to get faith, or how to overcome frustration, cure mental health and be healed of all your diseases. I could go on and on, but these "how to" things lead believers to subjective religion where all the information puts the burden on them to be and to do. This happens even though Christ lives in them and Paul says Christ is our only life.

The fact is, if we follow Paul as he follows Christ and I live in the Epistles, we will know how to live the Christ-life that is in us. The Christ-life is objective-- a finished work at the cross and a grace work in its totality. The problem in Christianity is the gospel coming from Christ to Paul has not been preached. If we knew the Christ in us, Ephesians 4:20

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

we would never be in doubt as to who we are and what we are. Subjective religion has never had the answers and never will, but objective Christianity will produce a new creation in Christ.

The fact remains, a believers growth comes from the gospel he hears, reads, and understands. Not having a definite direction when a believer reads and studies the Scriptures, he will never find the true message of God that is for him. Without this direction, when he studies someone's books or hear's someone's message, he can be confused. Where does this direction come from? Basically it comes from the Holy Spirit, who's ministry is to teach the believer about the Christ that is already in him, John 14:20

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

This is the clear direction every ongoing believer will have. Efforts relating to listening or studying anything else not akin to learning the Christ living in the believer will amount to nothing. If the believer never comes to the fullness of Christ in his knowing, then anything else he may have learned is futile. (Read 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2.)

Soul man:
Did you mean WITH subjective religion in your opening sentence?

This is my rendition and ramble of what I heard you say….it is an interesting topic you have here….quite insightful. I just want to add a few twists in it that I believe still supports your writing and ideas.

Why would a true believer subject themselves or consider themselves being or wanting to subject themselves under the law once again? The spirit within me really does not incline me to go there. This is an unrealistic scenario for a true believer that has firm faith in God.

****Although I do see where you are going ….

Also, why would a true believer consider subjective religion as part of their life? These two concepts you have introduced, if attempted by a true believer will soon cramp their growth and thus become ‘dead weight’ in the body of Christ.

*** I do see your developing point you have stated, as in your opening.

I see a supportive sub-message that could be called, highly distractive information overload for a believer that will unbalance or even ‘kill’ their spiritual walk…something to that effect

There is an enormous and overpowering amount of information to be had in stores, internet, from other people, that produces an overload and a real distraction for spiritual growth.

And this overload can keep us from growing as a Christian if we attempt to gain knowledge from these places without occasionally resting and reevaluating the worth of it, as we attempt to grow and do the will of God. We cannot do both? We need to temper it and balance our energies and time.

We also become selfish and show a ‘religious’ face…an unintended consequence of this unbalance…we drift back into the world again, maybe?

Because of this unbalance caused by what many believers absorb today from the world versus what God wants them to do, they tend to not incubate true scriptural knowledge they receive for too long. They tend to use half-baked knowledge and subjectivity from the world to cloud their minds which they then spill out in information exchanges, as the truth.


APAK
 
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Windmill Charge

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Objective Christianity means the believer can do nothing, within himself, to save himself
A believer adopting a course of self- effort or self-works will eventually put the emphasis of Christian living on himself rather than on the Christ in him

What you haven't address are two things.
Jesus's command that if you love me you will obey me and james's comment you have faith. but I thgrough my deeds show my faith.

There is a fine line between living by faith and out of love and obedience doing good deeds/works and coming to depend on those same good works/deeds for salvation.

The Christian needs a firm grasp of the knowledge that he/she is saved by Gods grace and not by works no matter how good.
 
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101G

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Addressing the OP, good topic. may I say this, God who is subjective, sent his "own" arm to save us. his "own" arm, which became flesh is the objective. in which salvation is the goal. Objective is something that one's efforts or actions are intended to attain or accomplish; purpose; goal; target. supportive scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".

so any religion, or believer must depend on God doing the work and NOT them.

PCY.
 

soul man

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Also, why would a true believer consider subjective religion as part of their life? These two concepts you have introduced, if attempted by a true believer will soon cramp their growth and thus become ‘dead weight’ in the body of Christ

Yes I understand, but also the argument could be made what is a true believer.
That puts us back in the category of religion. Living up to someone's standard for Christianity. So where does the cross come into play for wicked humanity.+
 

amadeus

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"
a good deed covers many sins regardless, i guess
Not a good deed, but charity:

"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins." I Peter 4:8

And charity is explained or defined here:

"Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." I Cor 13:4-7


A good deed may be done in charity, but a good deed may also be done for very selfish reasons and then it would not cover sins.
 

Helen

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a good deed covers many sins regardless, i guess

Ouch! No, the blood of bulls and goats covered sins...the blood of Jesus only, washes away sin. :)

"it is love which covers a multitude of sin. "
Like Shem covered Noah's nakedness ," Ham did not, he revealed Noah's nakedness... When we cover our brother or sisters failing or blips ..we use love to cover their sin from others judging or condemning eyes...

My two cents.
 

Davy

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Subjective religion objective Christianity

#1
Nothing works right for believers under the law or believers attempting to live the "kingdom message" without subjective religion, John 18:36,

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Christ's meaning there is that His return to reign on earth with His elect over the nations with a rod of iron is not for this present world, but of the world to come at His return. No need to read anything else into that.


Christianity is objective, religion is subjective. The understanding of these two words gives the believer the victory in every day living that God intended.
Objective Christianity means the believer can do nothing, within himself, to save himself or to stay saved, Eph. 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

That's actually a doctrine of men, not Biblical. It's the onced-saved-always-saved doctrine of men. Not written. The called believer can... fall away from Christ Jesus, even as some did in Apostle Paul's day. Even the believer in 1 Cor.5 who was having intercourse with his own mother, Paul cast out of the Church and to Satan so that his spirit might saved in the 'day of Christ' (Christ's future thousand years reign of Rev.20). So that one most likely will not be among Christ's elect reigning with Him in that future time. In 2 Thess.2, Apostle Paul is warning about the great falling away (apostasy) in the last days when the Antichrist shows up in Jerusalem. He is referring to the same one our Lord Jesus warned of in Matt.24:23-26 coming to Jerusalem at the end of this world.

Christianity cannot simply be categorized with words like objective and subjective, descriptive words which more belong to the field of psychology than religion. In actuality, Christianity is not... a religion. It is the Truth. Religion is something man creates and follows to appear holy, either to himself or to others. It's how the blind Pharisee Jews liked to act and appear.
 

bbyrd009

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Christ's meaning there is that His return to reign on earth with His elect over the nations with a rod of iron is not for this present world, but of the world to come at His return. No need to read anything else into that.
imo the problem will come when you do not allow for other interpretations; for instance, i happen to doubt that there is going to be a Physical Return, Tomorrow, and i'm convinced that "it is finished" should be applied there. And i could fill the page with reasonings why, you are supposed to be the Body of Christ, you live in the present world, etc, but the point i wanted to make is that i don't condemn you for believing differently mostly imo bc i can acknowledge that i do not know, whereas once you start speaking for God you are kind of backed into a corner, if that makes any sense?
 
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Helen

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imo the problem will come when you do not allow for other interpretations; for instance, i happen to doubt that there is going to be a Physical Return, Tomorrow, and i'm convinced that "it is finished" should be applied there. And i could fill the page with reasonings why, you are supposed to be the Body of Christ, you live in the present world, etc, but the point i wanted to make is that i don't condemn you for believing differently mostly imo bc i can acknowledge that i do not know, whereas once you start speaking for God you are kind of backed into a corner, if that makes any sense?

Agree...and one of the chips on my should is people who state that what they say is 100% correct.
Not too many will write "in my opinion" or " this is what I believe"...they write as if they are school teachers and have the last word. :rolleyes:
As I have said before...that just shows a closed, unteachable spirit.

Lets go and start our own church :D
 

Davy

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imo the problem will come when you do not allow for other interpretations; for instance, i happen to doubt that there is going to be a Physical Return, Tomorrow, and i'm convinced that "it is finished" should be applied there. And i could fill the page with reasonings why, you are supposed to be the Body of Christ, you live in the present world, etc, but the point i wanted to make is that i don't condemn you for believing differently mostly imo bc i can acknowledge that i do not know, whereas once you start speaking for God you are kind of backed into a corner, if that makes any sense?

If you doubt Christ Jesus' future literal physical return, then it means you doubt God's Holy Writ, for it is written, and in more than one Scripture.

Short phrases like "it is finished" apply to the context of the Bible chapter where they are found. And that one applied to Christ's crucifixion, not to prophecy thereafter about the end of this world, and the world to come. Since His death on the cross did not end this present world, that should have revealed to you there's more to happen He spoke of, stay tuned.

There are many, mainly those who have done their homework in God's Word and asked His help, that understand what I speak from His Word. And if you get down to disciplined Bible study, chapter by chapter, asking Him for understanding, you too will understand how closely I stay to God's Holy Writ. The real truth of the matter is, not many like to stay with what God's Holy Writ actually states in simplicity. That's why there's so many church organizations today that rely on their own doctrines, and give congregations about 2 or 3 verse sermons each week instead of covering God's Word chapter by chapter like they are supposed to.

I recall a brother who came up to me once and asked about how his Sunday School teacher was doing class. He wasn't covering much Scripture but going on with all these philosophical talks. I told the brother to ask him why not start at Genesis and go all the way through God's Word line by line, chapter by chapter. He did ask him, and he was told something like, "You must think we have all the time in the world!"

God's House, of all places, is not the place to waste time with not... teaching all of His Holy Writ.
 

bbyrd009

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If you doubt Christ Jesus' future literal physical return, then it means you doubt God's Holy Writ, for it is written, and in more than one Scripture.
that is your opinion, yes, but the argument of "see and not see" is not nullified by it, regardless of how popular it might be.
I'm not saying that that cannot be true, understand, but it is more likely that the Revelation of Christ occurs in an individual, and that Christ "returns" when we manifest Him.

so iow while i am not saying it, understand that it is equally justifiable to say that if you do not accept that you are the Body of Christ, that means that you doubt God's Holy Writ--which btw is not holy, except in that bad translation you have; go look if you don't believe me--for this is also written in many places
 

bbyrd009

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Short phrases like "it is finished" apply to the context of the Bible chapter where they are found.
wadr oracles abound, and i am not interested in debating deterministic statements any more. I am not the arbiter of what "it is finished" really means, but i do notice that Tomorrow People like to selectively apply it, except where it makes the most sense, not that i mean to apply this to you ok, as i am not sure what your position is there
 

bbyrd009

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God's Holy Writ. The real truth of the matter is
it might help if you could establish this "Holy Writ" somewhere, then maybe we could proceed?
Fwiw i'd verify with the Lex before posting your fave Tranny ok, otherwise you are just repeating more bad Hermen or whatever