Can a person be a Christian and also believe in evolution?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

forrestcupp

Active Member
Feb 10, 2013
271
150
43
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think Christians are as close-minded to science as most scientists are to creation, and it makes them look pretty silly to the rest of the world. How are we going to win people to Christ that way? I believe science and biblical creation can be reconciled.

Personally, I don't believe in evolution, but I believe in the hard evidence of every scientific finding. It's silly to just reject things that are right before our eyes because we have to hang onto an interpretation of the bible. The scientific findings are all true. What is not true is when they start forming theories on how it happened.

First off, the Bible was never meant to be a textbook on creation science. There are 1189 chapters in the Bible, and one of them is dedicated to the creation account. Think about this: the gospel accounts of the temptation of Christ list three different temptations that He experienced. But then in Hebrews, it says that Jesus was tempted in all ways like unto us, yet without sin. My point is that the account that lists three temptations isn't an exhaustive account of all of the temptations He experienced. In the same way, that one chapter in the beginning of Genesis isn't meant to be an exhaustive account of all of the science behind exactly how God went about creating everything. It just says that He created everything.

If you look at the account in Genesis with an open mind, you'll see that it basically happened in the same order that scientific findings say that things happened. First day, let there be light, and there was a big explosion of light. Life began in the water, then later on life came upon the shores on dry land. Last, but not least in the list, man was created. It's the same pattern you see in scientific findings. The problem with science is that they then put their Godless theories onto their findings and ridicule anyone for not believing their theories that go beyond the hard evidence of real findings.

All of this didn't happen through evolution; it happened because God created things in that order. Then there is the argument of genetic or DNA patterns that are similar between species. Anyone who is a computer programmer can testify that it makes sense to reuse code base that is similar because there's no point in "recreating the wheel." So why wouldn't God reuse DNA patterns that He had already used? Then you have the arguments about the flaws in the DNA, but who's to say an all-knowing God wouldn't have had a purpose for those things that we finite-minded people don't understand. Until recently, we thought that the appendix had no purpose, but now we know it harbors good digestive bacteria to recharge our system when intestinal bacteria are killed off. But at one time, our finite minds thought it was just a worthless, leftover flaw of evolution.

The other problem between science and the popular interpretation of biblical creation is timing. A lot of people are stuck to the 6000 year old earth, when that seems ridiculous to the rest of the world. So the question is: did God really do all of that in a literal 6 days, or was it actually 6 eras that took place before our concept of a timeline, so it was really an undefined length of time? My answer to that is: I don't know, and neither does anyone else. I would like to think that it was a literal 6 days, which can be explained by the scientifically proven fact that time is relative. All you have to do is study the two Theories of Relativity, which have both pretty much been proven with testing. So one possibility is that since time is relative according to gravity or speed, God was able to accomplish 4.5 billion years worth of activity in what is relatively 6 days when you're taken out of the situation, and you view it from a different vantage point.

I think if people on both sides would be more open-minded about things, they might come to the conclusion that scientific findings are indeed real, and they actually prove God and the Bible, rather than disprove them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
What is not true is when they start forming theories on how it happened.
the beauty of that imo is that the scientific method does not allow for theories to be called facts, or truth, right. So it might be seen that a theorist might defend a theory, but the whole point of positing a theory is to see if it can stand up in the fire, so to speak; iow no one posits a theory as truth or fact, except religious people.

Scripture used to mean "knowledge" or something similar, i guess, until just recently

ntmy :)
 
B

Butterfly

Guest
Butterfly,

I think we need to differentiate between micro-evolution and macro-evolution.

Micro-evolution represents change within the species. I eat white, pink and black grapes. They represent change within the species - different varieties - but they are all grapes.

Macro-evolution defines change from one species to another, e.g. chimpanzee to human being, like this:

View attachment 1826

We need some clarity here. What are we talking about, micro-evolution or macro-evolution?

Oz
Ok, so I must believe in micro evolution.
I presume that the OP is talking about macro - evolution
So, what about the Big Bang theory - I can quite believe that it could fit in with the creation in Genesis - but what camp would that put me in ?
Butterfly
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen
B

Butterfly

Guest
...is not really what anyone believes, fwiw, except the uninformed.
No scientist would put it that way, as we apparently split before apes even evolved, i guess, according to the record

who did not want to believe anyway maybe, ya. Bc even in that scenario, a Creator could be posited, right
the OG Flat Earthers did not try to prove the earth was flat; that was never the point, as i understand it. the old Flat Earth society seemed to mainly wish to make the point that practically speaking, we all live on a flat earth, and everything that Solomon recommended for a fulfilling life occurs with one's feet on the ground. Thus the new "courtroom" movement ends up discrediting a wholesome concept imo
I was under the impression that the flat earther believers honestly believed the earth was flat, that is certainly the impression I have got from my son Dan - hmmm the concept you have described is certainly not something he has relayed from what he has read. I perhaps need to investigate his sources to see if he has misunderstood.
Butterfly
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
I was under the impression that the flat earther believers honestly believed the earth was flat, that is certainly the impression I have got from my son Dan - hmmm the concept you have described is certainly not something he has relayed from what he has read. I perhaps need to investigate his sources to see if he has misunderstood.
Butterfly
yes, the new flat earthers do that, but the original FEers never did, at least none of the many i knew back then, even if it was the official position. The spirit has def changed, at least
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
And?
Isn't this forum full of opinions?

You seem to have forgotten how my post began: 'Assertions prove nothing'.

Since this is a Christian forum, I expected that opinions would be supported by evidence - biblical evidence. My expectation was too high, it seems, from your perspective.

In my understanding, opinions are not worth a penny unless supported by proof / verification / authentication. The apostle Paul also believed this. See: Romans 1:18-20 (NIV),

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.​

Oz
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
It's my opinion that a person cannot claim Biblical Christianity
and at the same time believe in paganistic evolution,
and there is no other type of evolution but that which is paganistic.

Again, you provide no evidence for the content of:
  • 'Biblical Christianity';
  • 'paganistic evolution';
  • 'no other type of evolution but that which is paganistic'.
I'm pleased indeed that you labelled this as 'my opinion' and not 'proof I've sought and found in a number of sources of evidence to support my case'.

Oz
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
What colour were they when God created grapes?

You are not addressing the issue I raised when I used this illustration: micro-evolution vs macro-evolution.

Therefore, your response here is a red herring logical fallacy. It is fallacious reasoning because it switches topics, but makes it look like it's a continuation of the topic. It isn't.

Oz
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Ok, so I must believe in micro evolution.
I presume that the OP is talking about macro - evolution
So, what about the Big Bang theory - I can quite believe that it could fit in with the creation in Genesis - but what camp would that put me in ?
Butterfly

Why don't you tell us? You should be the expert on your own view of evolution.
 
B

Butterfly

Guest
Why don't you tell us? You should be the expert on your own view of evolution.
No, if I was an expert I would know what camp I am in - lol
I do not give evolution a lot of thought to be honest, I am quite happy to leave details to God and I do not search for all the answers to some things. It's a long time since I was at school, and even then I cannot remember what we were taught about evolution. Also if someone asks about evolution does that go hand in hand with including the Big Bang, or is it a seperate thing ?
You have already shown me that it's not as clear cut because there are two types of evolution, macro and micro and that it's quite easy for a Christian to believe one aspect and not the other.
For some reason I have always presumed that if you believed in darwins theory of evolution, then it automatically meant you believed in the Big Bang theory. It's only quite recently , since having debates with my youngest son who is an atheist, that I have realised that I really don't know that much about it all. So, call me naive because I know I am not as knowledgable as perhaps I should be.
Logic tells me that the Big Bang can not be macro - evolution.
Butterfly
 
  • Like
Reactions: Helen

Triumph1300

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2018
4,234
4,999
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Why don't you tell us? You should be the expert on your own view of evolution.

Well, here's another aggressive poster.
Reminds me a lot of the Roman Catholic discussion thread.
I'm glad I don't sit with your attitude in a living room bible study.
Over and out.
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Also if someone asks about evolution does that go hand in hand with including the Big Bang, or is it a seperate thing ?

Butterfly,

Basically, in my understanding, over a period of many years scientists did not believe the universe had a beginning. See: No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning

The Big Bang is a theory that has developed more in recent times, although it was first proposed in the 1920s. It at least acknowledges there was a beginning that happened with a Big Bang. My question is: Who or what created the material that was there for the Big Bang to happen?


You have already shown me that it's not as clear cut because there are two types of evolution, macro and micro and that it's quite easy for a Christian to believe one aspect and not the other.

I think it is clear enough. All of us should believe in micro-evolution, which is change within the species? How many different varieties of oranges do you eat? I eat navel oranges and round oranges. There is also blood oranges. This is an example of micro-evolution, i.e. change within the species. How many different varieties of grass are there? What about breeds of cattle? Wherever we see changes of species within the species/breeds, we see micro-evolution in action. Do you believe in micro-evolution? I do!

For some reason I have always presumed that if you believed in darwins theory of evolution, then it automatically meant you believed in the Big Bang theory.

Not in my understanding. Darwin's theory of evolution involved Darwin believing in the natural emergence of the first life forms and not the Big Bang origin.

The Big Bang was developed as an explanation mostly in the 20th and 21st centuries.

Logic tells me that the Big Bang can not be macro - evolution.

The Big Bang has to do with the origin of the universe.

What is macroevolution? A creationist, John D Morris PhD explained:

Macroevolution refers to major evolutionary changes over time, the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, ancestral types. Examples of this would be fish descending from an invertebrate animal, or whales descending from a land mammal. The evolutionary concept demands these bizarre changes (What Is The Difference Between Macroevolution And Microevolution)​

In On Origin of Species, Darwin diagrammed it like this:


500px-Ape_skeletons.png

(Human Evolution, Wikipedia).

Oz
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Ok, so I must believe in micro evolution.
I presume that the OP is talking about macro - evolution
So, what about the Big Bang theory - I can quite believe that it could fit in with the creation in Genesis - but what camp would that put me in ?
Butterfly

Perhaps I assumed too much. Do you accept microevolution or not? Do you believe there are different varieties of oranges, but they are all oranges - an example of microevolution?

What about human beings? There are Negroid, Asian, Middle-Eastern, Indian, Indigenous, and Caucasian human beings (as a sample). Are they all human beings, no matter what the features or colour? Therefore, this is change within the homo sapiens species - microevolution.

Is there evidence in the fossil record of transitional species from apes to human beings - macroevolution?

Oz
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Well, here's another aggressive poster.
Reminds me a lot of the Roman Catholic discussion thread.
I'm glad I don't sit with your attitude in a living room bible study.
Over and out.

No aggression, but it was a straight, transparent question.

I teach a living room Bible study and there are no people who accuse me of being aggressive. It's a very open study with lots of contributions by the participants.

You have judged me too harshly when I'm a plain speaking Aussie.

Oz
 
  • Like
Reactions: Butterfly
B

Butterfly

Guest
Perhaps I assumed too much. Do you accept microevolution or not? Do you believe there are different varieties of oranges, but they are all oranges - an example of microevolution?

What about human beings? There are Negroid, Asian, Middle-Eastern, Indian, Indigenous, and Caucasian human beings (as a sample). Are they all human beings, no matter what the features or colour? Therefore, this is change within the homo sapiens species - microevolution.

Is there evidence in the fossil record of transitional species from apes to human beings - macroevo

Oz
Yes, I believe in micro evolution - but until you mentioned it's name earlier in your post I only knew I believed in an aspect of evolution. So you helped me to define what I believed.
The macro evolution confuses me slightly, i definately do not believe we descended from apes, purely on the basis of Genesis and man being made in Gods image. God created us to rule over the land and nature ect - so I totally believe that human beings are, and always have been unique and seperate from other species.
Butterfly
 
  • Like
Reactions: OzSpen
B

Butterfly

Guest
Butterfly,

Basically, in my understanding, over a period of many years scientists did not believe the universe had a beginning. See: No Big Bang? Quantum equation predicts universe has no beginning

The Big Bang is a theory that has developed more in recent times, although it was first proposed in the 1920s. It at least acknowledges there was a beginning that happened with a Big Bang. My question is: Who or what created the material that was there for the Big Bang to happen?




I think it is clear enough. All of us should believe in micro-evolution, which is change within the species? How many different varieties of oranges do you eat? I eat navel oranges and round oranges. There is also blood oranges. This is an example of micro-evolution, i.e. change within the species. How many different varieties of grass are there? What about breeds of cattle? Wherever we see changes of species within the species/breeds, we see micro-evolution in action. Do you believe in micro-evolution? I do!



Not in my understanding. Darwin's theory of evolution involved Darwin believing in the natural emergence of the first life forms and not the Big Bang origin.

The Big Bang was developed as an explanation mostly in the 20th and 21st centuries.



The Big Bang has to do with the origin of the universe.

What is macroevolution? A creationist, John D Morris PhD explained:

Macroevolution refers to major evolutionary changes over time, the origin of new types of organisms from previously existing, but different, ancestral types. Examples of this would be fish descending from an invertebrate animal, or whales descending from a land mammal. The evolutionary concept demands these bizarre changes (What Is The Difference Between Macroevolution And Microevolution)​

In On Origin of Species, Darwin diagrammed it like this:


500px-Ape_skeletons.png

(Human Evolution, Wikipedia).

Oz
Thank you - the info above about the Big Bang is very helpful
Butterfly
 
  • Like
Reactions: OzSpen

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I think Christians are as close-minded to science as most scientists are to creation, and it makes them look pretty silly to the rest of the world. How are we going to win people to Christ that way? I believe science and biblical creation can be reconciled.

I consider this is too generalised a statement. Please examine the qualifications of those in the creation ministry in Australia: https://creation.com/about-us#who_we_are

These scientists are not closed-minded to science, but they critique science through the lens of a biblical worldview.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
so I totally believe that human beings are, and always have been unique and seperate from other species.
not arguing the point specifically, but we share thousands of common bonds/ancestors with the other species of the earth in our gut and skin flora, and this pov of "separate" helps to justify wiping them all out, which we have pretty much accomplished now, in the first world.

i don't expect to sway you from this pov of "uniqueness," but most of the DNA you possess is not even your own; and of course there is no class on taking care of your skin flora in HS, right, most ppl are barely aware they have any different species living in their gut.

a point being that this "uniqueness" thing can and will be used to keep ppl ignorant, and just sets one up to more readily accept Duality, us v them, you against the world, like that.

Antibacterial soap would be a natural outpouring of this particular evil spirit; antibiotics too, and etc. Antibiotics are a death sentence, essentially, they are like begging for Crohn's
 
Last edited: