Are you catholic?

[Taken]

It’s understood in Catholic spirituality and theology that any of us can pray to God at any time.

That's nice. In Scripture it is taught God does not hear a man who is not saved or born again.

there is also the practice of praying for each other.

Yep. No issue with Praying FOR another.
Praying "TO" is my issue.
Praying "TO" in Scripture is always "TO GOD", not men.

Our Protestant brethren in Christ (who generally reject intercession of the saints) have the notion of “getting a holy man [or the pastor, etc.] to pray for you.”

ALL men "IN CHRIST" are saints.
Asking an living saint, or aka holy man, to pray for you is taught.

Asking DEAD men to pray for you is not taught.

Nor does Scripture teach ONLY some men in Christ are worthy to be called a saint, and that men should Decide WHICH men should be SET APART with a declaration of Sainthood, and carvings (statues, coins, metals, trinkets ) produced to to exalt such man according to men.

James 5:14-18 (RSV)

“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.”

Again I have no issue of a man praying FOR another. The Praying TO is clearly established, in WHOSE NAME...ie the Lord, of the Lord, the Lord will, the Lord forgives sin, etc.

Note here that the Bible itself recommends asking someone else to pray:

Note....I have no objection of men praying FOR other men....TO God, in the Lords Name.

What don't you get? My objection is praying "TO" a dead person, "TO" a false god, "TO" other people......."TO" not "FOR"...."without the "TO" being the Lord God.

If you do not establish the "TO" as being the Lord God......whatever you are praying "TO" is your god.

You said you pray TO Mary, for her to INTERCEDE on your behalf.

Why? Are you still a man, NOT YET forgiven, restored, quickened, having the indwelling Holy Spirit, Converted, made whole, that YOU HAVE direct access TO thee Lord God Almighty personally?

“the elders” of the Church, who, like other Church leaders (1 Tim 3:1-13; Titus 1:7), are supposed to be of exemplary character, and “worthy of double honor” (1 Tim 5:17). They have more power, due to their ordination.

The EDLERS are Elders, precisely Because "THEY" are aleady Supposed to BE IN CHIRST. ANYONE "IN Christ" has "more power" because the Power of Christ is IN them.

However ALL of a congregation IS NOT YET "IN CHRIST", and continuously People are born and attend a church to learn about Christ, and absolutely CAN solicite an ELDER for guidance and advice that Lead them to becoming IN Christ.

To nail down his point,

You are beating a dead horse!
If you comprehend praying FOR another TO God, in His Name; that is one thing.
Praying TO anything without God, is in Vain.
And is another thing.

But still, dead saints?

This is the biblical rationale for asking others, of more spiritual stature in the kingdom, or holier (or, best of all, both!) to pray for us.

How IS a justified dead body in the ground; and his saved soul IN Heaven, MORE holier than a Justified alive body on earth and his saved soul WITHIN him?

They aren't. They are both made whole, are saints, are holy, are justified to receive a glorious body.

And again, WHY does a saved and born again man NEED someone to PRAY to God FOR HIM.

Don't you know, a man having Recived his Salvation and Quickened spirit HAS the Lord within him, 24-7 FOREVER? Why bypass Him, and ask someone else to petition your prayers TO Him FOR you?

But that is not yet the same as asking a (dead) saint to pray for us.

His BODY IS DEAD. Exactly HOW is the body of a dead man going to communicate WITH YOU? And HOW exactly are you alive in your body going to Communicate with HIS SOUL?

There are PLENTY of living saints, you, alive in your body can communicate with, if you feel the need of some guidance, IF, YOU for some reason, ARE saved and born again, and reject communication your spirit to the Lords Spirit.

How does one arrive at that conclusion? It takes a little more work, but it is possible to ground it, too, in Scripture.

Sure it is in Scripture. Point is, IT DOES NOT APPLY to a man WHO...IS Saved, born again, Has the indwelling HS in him, with him, 24-7.
You are simply relying on a middle man...AS a man WITHOUT Christ IN him, must do.

Jews who reject Christ, duh, do not have the Spirit of Christ in them....they require a middle man, ie a holy man, a man who does believe in God, and knows the laws, and adheres to the Laws. He is their rabbi, their teacher, their comforter, their advisor.

You do realize the majority of Scripture was written BY and FOR Hebrews and Jews.

Why pretend WHAT they are subject to ...
WITHOUT Christ....applies to a man IN Christ?

That does not apply to a man IN CHRIST.

In Revelation 5:8, the “twenty-four elders” (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) “fell down before the Lamb … with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” They appear to have other people’s prayers, to present to God. So the obvious question is: what are they doing with them? Why does Revelation present dead saints presenting the prayers of other saints to God?

This has nothing to do with what you are talking about.
Revelations IS a recap, and a revealing, of what shall be expected in heaven, on earth, of heavens holy occupants, (angels, saved souls of men), of fallen angels, of earths occupants (saved and unsaved), WHO the Lord God Almighty IS, (father, son & HS), and the complete division between created celestials and created terrestrials who accepted God, and rejected God.

The 24 Elders have the prayers of the saints.
It is basically telling you:
1) The prayers ARE, of saved and born again men.
2) A saved and born again man IS WAITING for ONE THING.
3) That ONE THING is that His BODY be raised and Glorified.
4) That information per each mans name, is recorded in the Lambs book of Life.
5) That information has NOT been revealed yet.....until the Lamb opens His book.
6) Every saved and born again man HAS had His Name testified of IN Heaven.
7) those testimonies are called those PRAYERS the Elders have.
8) There is a BLESSING of God for each one of those men, being performed in Rev 5:8, for the glorified body they are going to receive.
9) IT is their REWARD, (a glorified body) they are about to receive, when Jesus descends from Heaven, to the Clouds and calls up all those IN CHRIST.
10) It is their reward, and their reward has been blessed, BY God, when the 24 Elders present the Names of all those IN Christ.

A man IN CHRIST, requires NO intercessory to God. A man IN CHRIST already WENT THROUGH Gods intercessory, whose NAME is JESUS.

Revelation 8:3-4 is even more explicit.

Revelation is very Complex, because it deals with ALL of Gods creations, and God Himself.
Revelation has multiple characters, that are ALL NOT In faith, or became in faith at the same time, or served the Lord in the same ways, or are positioned in higher positions in service to God.

Simply grabbing a scripture out of Revelations, without who, what, when, why, where....ie it's applicablility....does not give you a true understanding.

I don't know your background. But I know mine. I spent well over a year, reading, reading, reading, daily, hours and hours;
ONLY Revelations and conferring in my spirit to the Lords Spirit about the understanding according to God, OF Revelations. Which IS exactly what Scripture teaches a man to do, instead of using his mind to try and figure out Gods Understanding. His Understanding is a Gift to saved and born again men, to SEEK Him for His understanding.

“And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

Uh huh..

It seems clear that they have heard the prayers of men, and are involved as intercessors.

YOU convince me of nothing!
Men who are WITHOUT CHRIST require an intercessory....God sent us one. His name is Jesus. He is your advocate...Your intercessory!
Once you are saved and born again HIS HOLY SPIRIT DWELLS IN YOU....YOU HAVE NO NEED for an intercessory....YOU HAVE DIRECT spirit to Spirit Contact WITH GOD!!

 

[Nomad]

@epostle1

You said:

That is very much a prayer: asking for supernatural aid from those who have left the earthly life and attained a greater perfection.

I pointed out, via Deuteronomy 18:9-12, that those who inquire of the dead are an abomination to the Lord. Then you said:

Prayers to the dead have nothing to do with enquirers of the dead...

Allow me to point out the definition of 'inquire.'

in·quire
inˈkwīr/
verb

1. 
   ask for information from someone.
   "“How well do you know Berlin?” he inquired of Hencke"
   synonyms: ask, make inquiries, question someone, request/solicit information
   "I inquired about part-time training courses"

To 'inquire' of the dead is the same as to 'ask' the dead. It's a distinction without a difference. So are you contradicting yourself or backpedaling? Which is it?

Now, you asked about Luke 16... or did you inquire about Luke 16? Hmm.... So a dead man talking to a dead man is an example of the living inquiring of the dead how exactly? In the same post you also mention that King Saul talked with the dead prophet Samuel. You do realize that Scripture tells us that God put Saul to death for doing that, don't you? I'm afraid your examples aren't helping your case.

We are told by the writer of Hebrews that we are to go to God in times of need. There's no need for 'intermediaries.'

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[mjrhealth]

Samuel apparently wasnt impressed.

1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
1Sa 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

 

[Taken]

1 Kings 13:6 “And the king said to the man of God, ‘Entreat now the favor of the LORD your God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored to me.’ And the man of God entreated the LORD; and the king’s hand was restored to him, and became as it was before.”

The Favor of YOUR GOD...do you not comprehend....the "king who asked" was NOT a believer?

WHY did God restore "the unbelieving kings" hand? Any clue? A "king" has GREAT influence over his Subjects. If the "king's" hand is restored BY "your God".... and the "king" begins believing....and the "king" begins opening speaking of his belief...not particularly a newsflash: His Subjects follow suit!

God is not lax in influencing men, by many ways and means....even the unbelieving.

But still, dead saints?

This is the biblical rationale for asking others, of more spiritual stature in the kingdom, or holier (or, best of all, both!) to pray for us. But that is not yet the same as asking a (dead) saint to pray for us. How does one arrive at that conclusion? It takes a little more work, but it is possible to ground it, too, in Scripture.

Biblical "rational" ? Pfft! It's carnal minded rational, carnal minded logic, making sense.
That has NO PLACE in understanding Scripture. The Understanding of Scripture IS Gods Understanding, that only He gives to men.

In Revelation 5:8, the “twenty-four elders” (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) “fell down before the Lamb … with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” They appear to have other people’s prayers, to present to God. So the obvious question is: what are they doing with them? Why does Revelation present dead saints presenting the prayers of other saints to God?

So what Prayers are those prayers, and who are the saints being spoken of, and what is it the 24 elders are doing that for?

Saints are already saved and born again. What are they lacking that is about to be BLESSED? Any clue?

The saints about to receive their REWARD from the Son of man who descends from heaven to the clouds and call up the BODY'S, to give their body's their REWARD...aks, GLORIFICATION! And before they are given their REWARD, their REWARD is BLESSED by God, when the 24 Elders present to God, ALL the names, of EVERY saved and born again man.

If they have them, it stands to reason

Only the facts and Gods understanding matters....not a mans mindful understanding or logical conclusion.

This is biblical proof that dead saints and angels both somehow know about our prayers and present them to God.

Nothing told you THEY KNOW OUR PRAYERS, or KNOW ALL THE NAMES OF MEN WHO SHALL receive a glorified body.

The 24 elders serve the Lord on a higher level than others. They are the KEEPERS of the Prayers, they are the Presenters of the Prayers; for a mans glorification to be blessed.

They are acting as intercessors and intermediaries.

They are acting as Servants to God.

How do they hear our prayers?

Where does it say THEY HEARD THEM?

God gives them the power to

To serve Him, like all of His servant. But not all have the SAME tasks or positions.

They are aware of earthly events.

Uh huh, and we are aware of heavenly events, via His Word and signs.

We also know of several incidents in which dead men (even some from heaven) interact with those on earth: the Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-3 / Mk 9:4 / Lk 9:30-31), the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:3-13, the prophet Samuel (not just a demon impersonating him: 1 Sam 28:7-20), and “many bodies of the saints” that came out of their graves after Jesus’ Resurrection and went into Jerusalem, appearing to many (Mt 27:50-53). In the deuterocanonical book of 2 Maccabees (15:13-16) the prophet Jeremiah returns to earth.

You are all over the place without all the facts.
Transfiguration was not about men interacting with men.......but was precisely God having WITNESSES, for His Records, in which ALL of His records, testimonies, books, souls....are His and His that will serve as Evidence ... FOR and AGAINST men on Judgement Day.
God IS JUST...there is no Judgement without evidence, and there is no Sentencing without the consequences having been revealed that shall occur.

This is our rationale

Your rational is carnal, and without spiritual understanding.

Holy men and women’s prayers have great power.

Every man saved and born again has great power...it's called the Power of God dwelling with him.

Dead saints are perfected in holiness and are still part of the Body of Christ.

All saints living and dead are perfected in holiness IN CHRIST, by CHRIST.

WHAT in Scripture teaches YOU communicate with your spirit to Angels or dead men or the spirit of dead men?

The Blessed Virgin Mary in particular is exceptionally holy (Immaculate Conception) and as the Mother of God, her prayers have more power and effect than that of any other creature: all by God’s grace.

Oh yipes, I think I'm going to BARF!!

Mary was blessed, that the Lord used her VIRGIN womb to present to the world, the Christ Lord Jesus, in the likeness as a man.

She is a HUMAN, out of the dust of the earth, just like every other HUMAN. She was born in sin, just like other HUMANS. She was already saved and born again By Gods Grace and Blessing upon and in her FOR her faithfulness to God. She mothered the little babe Jesus, fed him, clothed him, gave him little chores, like mommy's do. And then she and her husband had natural children and raised them...and was no longer a VIRGIN!
But yes she was favored and blessed....like ALL saved and born again humans!
She is not a QUEEN Mother of all people.
She does not sit on a Throne pretending she is Gods Wife. She is a Human, who Served Her God according to His calling....and is blessed for her serving, as are all who serve thee Lord, their God.

She is called bless among women...why not men? Oh right, women have wombs, carry babies, men don't. Mary's womb was virgin, without mar, and carried in her womb Jesus, the Lord and Messiah of the Jews.

4) We know that they are aware of what goes on in the earth.

So? Living saints on earth are aware of what goes on in heaven.

5) We know that they exercise much charity and pray for us.
http://www.themichigancatholic.org/2014/10/why-should-we-pray-to-saints-rather-than-to-god/

Saints on earth, are NOT relieved of hardships. Not earthshattering for men to pray for men, for them to become saved, for them to endure their hardships and be comforted, etc.

Thus, Taken's claim: Prayer in Scripture is always taught a request made specifically TO GOD, is false.

Thus it is not. Prayer is always TO God, regardless of who is doing the Praying; or it is IN VAIN, worthless.

Mary can do nothing without God, another concept that evades anti-Catholic sensibilities.

Oh good grief...what is wrong with you to speak for all people who are not Catholic?

It is not some secret mysterious knowledge exclusive to Catholics........

No one has power except it is given them FROM Godeven satan!!

 

[epostle1]

That's nice. In Scripture it is taught God does not hear a man who is not saved or born again.

Chapter and verse, please.

Yep. No issue with Praying FOR another.
Praying "TO" is my issue.
Praying "TO" in Scripture is always "TO GOD", not men.

I've already demolished your man made theology, I suppose I have to repeat myself 100 times but you still won't get it. You are so schooled in hostility you can't be reasoned with.

ALL men "IN CHRIST" are saints.
Asking an living saint, or aka holy man, to pray for you is taught.
Asking DEAD men to pray for you is not taught.

Tell that to Jesus' parable of the rich man in Luke 16. Jesus CLEARLY teaches that the rich man, WHO IS DEAD prays TO Abraham, but your prejudice is so thick you cannot see the plain scriptures. There are others... Praying TO someone is simply shorthand for "please intercede to the Father on my behalf" which is understood among Catholics without having to spell everything out.

Nor does Scripture teach ONLY some men in Christ are worthy to be called a saint, and that men should Decide WHICH men should be SET APART with a declaration of Sainthood, and carvings (statues, coins, metals, trinkets ) produced to to exalt such man according to men.

Where does scripture teach your false iconoclasm? Didn't God God COMMAND the use of statuary in the Temple??? What about the bronze serpent??? Your error reveals no consistency.

Again I have no issue of a man praying FOR another. The Praying TO is clearly established, in WHOSE NAME...ie the Lord, of the Lord, the Lord will, the Lord forgives sin, etc.

Again, praying to a saint in heaven does not mean that saint has the power to answer the prayers. That is a Protestant myth generated by the worn out straw man fallacy. You do remember what a straw man fallacy is, don't you?
Nobody expects non-Catholics to have a devotion to any saint, and it is not a requirement for Catholics. If you insist on challenging a Catholic practice, please research the topic from apologetic articles and not the standard hate speech that pervades the internet.

Note....I have no objection of men praying FOR other men....TO God, in the Lords Name.
What don't you get? My objection is praying "TO" a dead person, "TO" a false god, "TO" other people......."TO" not "FOR"...."without the "TO" being the Lord God.

Then object to Jesus who prayed TO Lazarus to come forth from the dead, object to Peter when he prayed TO Tabitha to rise from the dead. I am sure the other Apostles raised people from the dead by praying TO them, it just hasn't been recorded. Your objection is that prayers to a holy person who is with God is wrong, but prayers to a person on earth whose life is still subject to sin is ok. You make no sense.

If you do not establish the "TO" as being the Lord God......whatever you are praying "TO" is your god.

A non-sequitur fallacy. That's Latin for "it does not follow from the available evidence." Stop being so insulting.

You said you pray TO Mary, for her to INTERCEDE on your behalf.

I said that in defense of your attacks. You pretend to be an expert on Marian devotion; the truth is you know nothing about it. So I submitted a long treatise on the subject, that obviously you couldn't be bothered to read. Again, Mary can do nothing without God. What part of that 6 word sentence don't you understand? Mary takes my prayers to God, and whether or not He answers them is up to Him, not Mary. Why is that so baffling? Just remember it wasn't a Catholic that dragged Mary into this discussion, it was you.

Why? Are you still a man, NOT YET forgiven, restored, quickened, having the indwelling Holy Spirit, Converted, made whole, that YOU HAVE direct access TO thee Lord God Almighty personally?

30. The lack of a definitive teaching authority in Protestant (as with the Catholic magisterium) makes many individual Protestants think that they have a direct line to God, notwithstanding all of Christian Tradition and the history of biblical exegesis (a "Bible, Holy Spirit and me" mentality). Such people are generally under-educated theologically, unteachable, lack humility, and have no business making presumed "infallible" statements about the nature of Christianity.
150 REASONS WHY I AM CATHOLIC

The EDLERS are Elders, precisely Because "THEY" are aleady Supposed to BE IN CHIRST. ANYONE "IN Christ" has "more power" because the Power of Christ is IN them.
However ALL of a congregation IS NOT YET "IN CHRIST", and continuously People are born and attend a church to learn about Christ, and absolutely CAN solicite an ELDER for guidance and advice that Lead them to becoming IN Christ.

I have no issues with that statement.

How IS a justified dead body in the ground; and his saved soul IN Heaven, MORE holier than a Justified alive body on earth and his saved soul WITHIN him?

You see a dead body in the ground, I see a soul united with God (provided they are saved). You can't make the distinction because of your prejudice and immaturity.

They aren't. They are both made whole, are saints, are holy, are justified to receive a glorious body.

How can a glorious body be deaf, dumb and blind to the affairs of the earth? Some eternal reward that is.

 

[Triumph1300]

I am trying to correct your misrepresentations and fallacious reasoning that is typical of ignorant anti-Catholics.

And so do mormons.
And so do JW's.

 

[Nomad]

Then object to Jesus who prayed TO Lazarus to come forth from the dead, object to Peter when he prayed TO Tabitha to rise from the dead.

When Jesus told Lazarus to "come out" and Peter told Tabitha to "arise" they both used verbs in the imperative mood. In other words, Lazarus and Tabitha were issued a 'command' not 'prayer.' You continued mishandling of Scripture is not only shameful, it's an act of pure desperation.

 

[epostle1]

And again, WHY does a saved and born again man NEED someone to PRAY to God FOR HIM.

They don't. You must live in a religious bubble.

Don't you know, a man having Recived his Salvation and Quickened spirit HAS the Lord within him, 24-7 FOREVER? Why bypass Him, and ask someone else to petition your prayers TO Him FOR you?

;
One day you will grow up and realize that salvation and a quickened spirit doesn't answer all of life's problems. How is it a "bypass" when the prayers go to God? I see how badly you have been indoctrinated in a lot of anti-Catholic nonsense.

His BODY IS DEAD. Exactly HOW is the body of a dead man going to communicate WITH YOU? And HOW exactly are you alive in your body going to Communicate with HIS SOUL?

Dead men do not communicate with us. That is another fallacy propagated by ignorant anti-Catholics.

Sure it is in Scripture. Point is, IT DOES NOT APPLY to a man WHO...IS Saved, born again, Has the indwelling HS in him, with him, 24-7.
You are simply relying on a middle man...AS a man WITHOUT Christ IN him, must do.

Nobody said you have to be a family, but that's your loss. Severing the umbilical cord between heaven and earth was a reformist invention, and it hasn't gone away. "Middle-man" is a ridiculous straw man fallacy. Saints who are with God are not "middle men".

Jews who reject Christ, duh, do not have the Spirit of Christ in them....they require a middle man, ie a holy man, a man who does believe in God, and knows the laws, and adheres to the Laws. He is their rabbi, their teacher, their comforter, their advisor.

Saints in heaven are not Jewish rabbis, but they could be.

You do realize the majority of Scripture was written BY and FOR Hebrews and Jews.

Do you realize the ENTIRE BIBLE was canonized by the Catholic Church in 397 AD?

Why pretend WHAT they are subject to ...
WITHOUT Christ....applies to a man IN Christ?
That does not apply to a man IN CHRIST.

What a shame you refuse to be a family.

The 24 Elders have the prayers of the saints.
It is basically telling you:
1) The prayers ARE, of saved and born again men.
2) A saved and born again man IS WAITING for ONE THING.
3) That ONE THING is that His BODY be raised and Glorified.
4) That information per each mans name, is recorded in the Lambs book of Life.
5) That information has NOT been revealed yet.....until the Lamb opens His book.
6) Every saved and born again man HAS had His Name testified of IN Heaven.
7) those testimonies are called those PRAYERS the Elders have.
8) There is a BLESSING of God for each one of those men, being performed in Rev 5:8, for the glorified body they are going to receive.
9) IT is their REWARD, (a glorified body) they are about to receive, when Jesus descends from Heaven, to the Clouds and calls up all those IN CHRIST.
10) It is their reward, and their reward has been blessed, BY God, when the 24 Elders present the Names of all those IN Christ.

A man IN CHRIST, requires NO intercessory to God. A man IN CHRIST already WENT THROUGH Gods intercessory, whose NAME is JESUS.

How did the 24 elders get the prayers of the saints in the first place? You are not being very honest.

Revelation is very Complex, because it deals with ALL of Gods creations, and God Himself.
Revelation has multiple characters, that are ALL NOT In faith, or became in faith at the same time, or served the Lord in the same ways, or are positioned in higher positions in service to God.

Simply grabbing a scripture out of Revelations, without who, what, when, why, where....ie it's applicablility....does not give you a true understanding.

There isn't much point in writing up another 10,000 word treatise when you couldn't be bothered to read the first one.

I don't know your background. But I know mine. I spent well over a year, reading, reading, reading, daily, hours and hours;
ONLY Revelations and conferring in my spirit to the Lords Spirit about the understanding according to God, OF Revelations. Which IS exactly what Scripture teaches a man to do, instead of using his mind to try and figure out Gods Understanding. His Understanding is a Gift to saved and born again men, to SEEK Him for His understanding.
Uh huh..
YOU convince me of nothing!
Men who are WITHOUT CHRIST require an intercessory....God sent us one. His name is Jesus. He is your advocate...Your intercessory!
Once you are saved and born again HIS HOLY SPIRIT DWELLS IN YOU....YOU HAVE NO NEED for an intercessory....YOU HAVE DIRECT spirit to Spirit Contact WITH GOD!!

I am not trying to convince you of anything, I am trying to correct your misrepresentations and fallacious reasoning that is typical of ignorant anti-Catholics.

 

[epostle1]

And so do mormons.
And so do JW's.

You are not equipped to compare Catholic theology with mormons and JW's. I suggest you read some debates and learn by sound bytes and carnival barkers, which is what you are accustomed to.

 

[epostle1]

When Jesus told Lazarus to "come out" and Peter told Tabitha to "arise" they both used verbs in the imperative mood. In other words, Lazarus and Tabitha were issued a 'command' not 'prayer.' You continued mishandling of Scripture is not only shameful, it's an act of pure desperation.

You are splitting hairs. When Jesus told Lazarus to "come out" and Peter told Tabitha to "arise" they both used verbs in the imperative mood. Yea, it's called "prayers to Lazarus and Tabitha in the imperative mood". You guys keep trying to squirm your way out of it. Jesus and Peter spoke to dead people. Get over yourself.

 

[Triumph1300]

You are not equipped to compare Catholic theology with mormons and JW's.

It's all the same.
All operated by a bunch of anti- christs.

 

[Taken]

The more than]+ dulia = "beyond dulia"), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother ...

Do you not comprehend, Catholics in their Wisdom and their Doctrine raise Mary up, beyond what Scripture does, beyond what Jesus' Doctirne does?

God used a faithful servants virgin womb.
God used a faithful servants to be called a father of many nations; ie Abraham.
God used other other faithful servants...for His pleasure to accomplish His WILL.

You think being named Thee Earthly father, of Men IN CHRIST, as Abraham was, is not a High Honor?
But who is building statues and bowing down and kissing such a statue? No one I hope!

Why wasn't Jesus Directing the Construction project of Statues to Mary, and Abraham, and Noah, and others?

Right...Because that was not Godly sanctioned...building statues FOR heavenly spiritual things...that could be mocked, worshiped, prayed to, exalted, pissed on, etc.

And the ALTER...where was Jesus' Alter?
Right...He didn't require one, He is the Sacrifice!

And the closed off Holy of Holies...in the Temple?... why is that no more?
Right..He is the Lord walking among men, fulfilling the promise He would, no more be hidden to only the Priests.
The vail was ripped open the Temple built with mens hands destroyed...
Right...He is His Church, building soul by soul without brick and mortar.

And Jesus' mother? Jesus is the Word of God in the Flesh, and the Spirit and Power of God in the Christ, and the Seed of God....He is OUR Lord and OUR God....

Our Lord our Our God has a Mother?
No he doesn't. Nor a father, nor ancestors, nor a wife, nor a beginning, nor an ending.

Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church

What are you talking about, Non-Catholics are hostile against "THE CHURCH"?

You think "THE CHURCH" exclusively belongs to Catholics?

Non Catholics have their Churches, built with mens hands, and the ones who are saved an born again, have Christ's Church within them, with Christ, their teacher.

that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions.

Non Catholics absolutely notice distinctions, and WHY they are NOT Catholics.

Catholics are VERY ceremonial. Some OT, Some NT, and Some things men dreamed up, with the hoopla, the special this, the special that, blah, blah.
And yes, some things have changed within your Church...like having your MASS in a language the congregation actually understands, and other things too.
But still it is like Y'all arent' sure if you want to be under the OLD covenant or the NEW covenant.

And also, NOT everyone claiming to BE Catholic, is on the same page.
Granted neither are Protestants....nor is anyone expected to be, since all are individuals and travel the path at different times, and speeds.

The difference with Catholics is NOT being in disagreement among themselves about God, about the Lord Jesus.....but yes about their special this and special that.

Perhaps some "Catholics" missed the "classes" where they are TOLD what they are.

I have personally talked to numerous people claiming they are Catholic...and have Heard out of their mouths....things, such as...
They were born Catholic.
No they are not a Christian, they are Catholic.
No they are not Saved, until Jesus returns.
Jesus' last name is Christ.
No they did not submit to Jesus.
They received the Holy Spirit as a baby.
Yes they Worship Statues of Jesus of Mary.
Yes Mary has to ask Jesus to Save them.
And on and on..

They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course,

Well the door, swings both ways, even with arrogance. Some Catholics can have a civil conversation as well so can some Protestants, but I would say individual personality and passion for their own beliefs easily rule the conversation.

[QUOTE[but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong [/QUOTE]

And like with now, I notice, and could do the same to you....talking To you, About you, while not directly addressing you formally, but really I am....

Geesh you know the education in anti-Protestants prejudice is so strong....that

that one must patiently explain that Catholics

do not worship anyone but God—at least given the contemporary use of the term. The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God.

It really takes patience for a Protestant to explain to Catholics why we believe what we believe....

And you think that is inviting, without a presumption of arrogance and I'm so patientl with you anti-Protestants.

From my perspective, I don't guess what Catholics do, I ask them. And when asking another Catholic and get "your're wrong", "your're stupid", "you are just anti-Catholic" "you just spread lies", blah, blah...it gets old!

From what I have learned about Catholics, personally, there is to much man made protocol that is not Scriptural or Applicable to a man IN CHRIST.

Catholics tout, they have been doing the same things for centuries.....And I wonder why they never learned the OLD man is dead, and the NEW IS Subject "TO" Christ, not the old, not people, not the Law, not the sin consequences of the Law.

 

[Nomad]

Yea, it's called "prayers to Lazarus and Tabitha in the imperative mood".

Hilarious! Prayers in the imperative mood! In another post you said that prayer is 'asking.' So now prayer is also 'commanding?' You failed to mention that before. The goal posts are on the move. It would seem that any and all communication constitutes prayer for you. Despite your Scripture twisting ways, you have failed to get around the most clear and forthright Scripture of all.

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,
Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

I await your response to the post you seem to be avoiding. Link provided below.

Are you catholic?

 

[mjrhealth]

It's all the same.
All operated by a bunch of anti- christs.

Like this

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

 

[epostle1]

When Jesus told Lazarus to "come out" and Peter told Tabitha to "arise" they both used verbs in the imperative mood. In other words, Lazarus and Tabitha were issued a 'command' not 'prayer.' You continued mishandling of Scripture is not only shameful, it's an act of pure desperation.

I am not the one that denies Lazarus and Tabitha were spoken TO when they were dead. I would rather be accused of mishandling Scripture than be guilty of flat out denial of them.

 

[epostle1]

Hilarious! Prayers in the imperative mood! In another post you said that prayer is 'asking.' So now prayer is also 'commanding?' You failed to mention that before. The goal posts are on the move. It would seem that any and all communication constitutes prayer for you. Despite your Scripture twisting ways, you have failed to get around the most clear and forthright Scripture of all.

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,
Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

I await your response to the post you seem to be avoiding. Link provided below.

Are you catholic?

Prayer has many definitions and if you are hung up on just one (the one you like) then it's not me with the problem. I've given you a response to the same psychotic charges previously. Maybe you don't know how to click on links, so I will paste in my response that you missed the first time:
Divination and magic

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The first commandment
You seem obsessed with this false accusation. Are you a satanist?

 

[epostle1]

Hilarious! Prayers in the imperative mood! In another post you said that prayer is 'asking.' So now prayer is also 'commanding?' You failed to mention that before. The goal posts are on the move. It would seem that any and all communication constitutes prayer for you. Despite your Scripture twisting ways, you have failed to get around the most clear and forthright Scripture of all.

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,
Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

I await your response to the post you seem to be avoiding. Link provided below.

Are you catholic?

Hilarious! Prayers in the imperative mood! In another post you said that prayer is 'asking.' So now prayer is also 'commanding?' You failed to mention that before. The goal posts are on the move. It would seem that any and all communication constitutes prayer for you. Despite your Scripture twisting ways, you have failed to get around the most clear and forthright Scripture of all.

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
Deu 18:11 or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead,
Deu 18:12 for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you.

I await your response to the post you seem to be avoiding. Link provided below.

Are you catholic?

I am not here to give lessons in grade 4 English.

 

[epostle1]

@epostle1

You said:
I pointed out, via Deuteronomy 18:9-12, that those who inquire of the dead are an abomination to the Lord. Then you said:
Allow me to point out the definition of 'inquire.'

in·quire
inˈkwīr/
verb

1. 
   ask for information from someone.
   "“How well do you know Berlin?” he inquired of Hencke"
   synonyms: ask, make inquiries, question someone, request/solicit information
   "I inquired about part-time training courses"

To 'inquire' of the dead is the same as to 'ask' the dead. It's a distinction without a difference. So are you contradicting yourself or backpedaling? Which is it?

Now, you asked about Luke 16... or did you inquire about Luke 16? Hmm.... So a dead man talking to a dead man is an example of the living inquiring of the dead how exactly? In the same post you also mention that King Saul talked with the dead prophet Samuel. You do realize that Scripture tells us that God put Saul to death for doing that, don't you? I'm afraid your examples aren't helping your case.

We are told by the writer of Hebrews that we are to go to God in times of need. There's no need for 'intermediaries.'

"intermediaries" in your context is a standard Protestant myth.

Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Prayers to the dead have nothing to do with enquirers of the dead... does not mean what you want it to mean. "nothing to do with enquirers of the dead." What part of "nothing to do with enquireis of the dead" don't you understand???

This is a forum, not a gr. 4 English class. You are a troll and a waste of my time.

 

[mjrhealth]

Hes going to be talking to himself soon

 

[Taken]

I've already demolished your man made theology, I suppose I have to repeat myself 100 times but you still won't get it. You are so schooled in hostility you can't be reasoned with.

LOL, so on cue. Did you pat yourself on the back too?

Pray TO God. If one is praying FOR another, the Prayer is always TO God, In His name, according TO Him.

IF you are Praying TO something other than God, WITHOUT invoking God....It is in vain.

THAT IS MY POINT.

If you want to repeat umpteen scriptures of one praying FOR another....go ahead...
Every Scripture INCLUDED God IN THE PRAYER, which proved my Point...

But you can take the credit and say my Point was not proven. You probably are needy for a trophy, where as I am content, to know I am correct.

Tell that to Jesus' parable of the rich man in Luke 16. Jesus CLEARLY teaches that the rich man, WHO IS DEAD prays TO Abraham, but your prejudice is so thick you cannot see the plain scriptures.

Obviously you are acutely unaware, their bodies are DEAD, and it is their living souls that are communicating, having a dialogue back and forth, that each can hear the other.

Obviously Mary's soul is Living, and your soul is living....so really, your soul and her soul have communication and dialogue that each can speak and hear the other?

Fascinating!

There are others... Praying TO someone is simply shorthand for "please intercede to the Father on my behalf" which is understood among Catholics without having to spell everything out.

WHY do you require INTERCESSION?
Don't you have DIRECT contact with God, your spirit to His Spirit within you?

Where does scripture teach your false iconoclasm? Didn't God God COMMAND the use of statuary in the Temple??? What about the bronze serpent??? Your error reveals no consistency.

Take it up with God.

Ex 20:4
You shall not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Lev 26:1
Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall you set up any image of stone in your land, to bow doe unto it;
For I am the LORD your God.

Again, praying to a saint

Good grief, LET IT GO.

You want to PRAY to dead people, or souls in heaven, that can not communicate with you, and ask them to ask God something FOR you, IN Gods NAME....so what, go ahead.

I have NO issue with that.....What part of ...
The request being made WITH God included, do you NOT COMPREHEND?

I SAID....PRAYING TO, something OTHER THAN GOD, WITHOUT GOD INCLUDED, IS IN VAIN!!

Why keep going on and on and on repeating yourself?

You are BORING me with your pretense that I said you were Worshiping statues. And your endless repeating of asking dead people to pray FOR you TO God TO petition GOD for you, because they are Holier than you, and apparently have connections...

How many times are you going to repeat yourself and pretend I am objecting to one asking another WITH GOD INCLUDED...?

in heaven does not mean that saint has the power to answer the prayers.

So, who said they did?

That is a Protestant myth generated by the worn out straw man fallacy.

Funny. I rather think that is WORN OUT Catholic accusation. I have NEVER heard anyone make that claim...and I know one or two Protestants....maybe ever 5 or 6...and counting Jesus, 7.

Nobody expects non-Catholics to have a devotion to any saint, and it is not a requirement for Catholics. If you insist on challenging a Catholic practice, please research the topic from apologetic articles and not the standard hate speech that pervades the internet.

Funny how, your sensitivity is applicable to only your ears and not your mouth.

Then object to Jesus who prayed TO Lazarus to come forth from the dead, object to Peter when he prayed TO Tabitha to rise from the dead.

LOL, seriously? Peter did not PRAY TO TABITHA....Peter knelt beside her and PRAYED...which did you forget Jesus taught His disciples HOW TO PRAY, always beginning with "OUR FATHER"....After Peter prayed he turned his attention to Tabitha and said arise.

Get the facts straight.

And the Lord calling Lazarus forth....HELLO, whom do you think IS the POWER of God who Rises rises up a dead body? Ding, ding, ding...
CHRIST is the Power of God.

I am sure the other Apostles raised people from the dead by praying TO them,

I'm sure you are in error again, as was your example of Peter and Tabitha.

Your objection is that prayers to a holy person who is with God is wrong,

Good grief, is lack of common sense a Catholic requirement...
I said no such thing!!

IF you had been paying attention to what I said instead of making up what I didn't say, you would have already understood....
Ask the LIVING who is IN CHRIST to pray for you IF you require multiple prayers.

Trying to communicate with the dead is what wizards, mediums, soothsayers, and the likes DO, and is not taught in Scriptures as a good thing.

but prayers to a person on earth whose life is still subject to sin is ok. You make no sense.

I did not say that.
I said a man IN CHRIST.

Why do you think a man IN Christ is subject to forgiven sin?

pretend to be an expert on Marian

False...I have never mentioned that.

the truth is you know nothing about it.

The Truth is, I never mention that to you or discussed that with you.

Mary can do nothing without God. What part of that 6 word sentence don't you understand?

What makes you think I didn't understand
"THAT"? My response was NO ONE Can do anything without God.....Did that somehow exclude Mary? What part of NO ONE CAN...escaped your understanding?