Salvation before Glorification of Christ?!

[APAK]

Eight probing questions of salvation for people in all ages, and before Christ’s return….

Were the disciples saved before Jesus ascended to heaven?

There are many pastors today saying that in the OT some people were saved through faith and grace of the same faith and grace as of today, ‘under grace.’ What do you think?

What does it mean to be credited with righteousness? Is it the same as being ‘saved?’

Did the OT folks have two ways or no way to salvation? Did they gain salvation by demonstrating faith with works, faith alone, or belief in a future Messiah that would die for their sins, or not at all?

And where does the Law fit in all this fit as it relates to salvation before Christ’s ascension?

Is there a difference in the ‘grace’ bestowed upon folks in the OT and the NT for salvation?

I think the OT folks under the Law including Christ’s disciples were not technically saved until the glorification of Christ and at Pentecost when the spirit was dispensed.

No spirit means no seal of salvation!


What is your take on the subject?


Blessings to all,


APAK

 

[Helen]

Just getting this marked and in my 'watch threads..'
Will be back later....

 

[Enoch111]

Were the disciples saved before Jesus ascended to heaven?

Absolutely. See Acts 1:8 and 2:4.

There are many pastors today saying that in the OT some people were saved through faith and grace of the same faith and grace as of today, ‘under grace.’ What do you think?

Hebrews 11 confirms that the OT saints were all saved (justified) by grace through faith. Noah is just one example.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. (Heb 11:7)

What does it mean to be credited with righteousness? Is it the same as being ‘saved?’

The Bible calls this "imputed righteousness", and this is the righteousness of Christ imputed to the one who believes on Him. Therefore it is the same as being saved (justified) by grace through faith (Eph 2:8,9).

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all. (Rom 4:16)

 

[Helen]

Were the disciples saved before Jesus ascended to heaven?

There are many pastors today saying that in the OT some people were saved through faith and grace of the same faith and grace as of today, ‘under grace.’ What do you think?

APAK

Yes, in Heb 11 It mentions that- and 'so and so believed God'...
That was their demonstration of faith.
In the NT it says- " Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Those OT saints sure knew how to hear God. They heard, they believed, and like Abraham 'they were accounted as righteous. '
Abraham being the Father of Faith.
So in that way both Old and New...it is Faith Righteousness ...
Hear, believe by faith, and pronounced righteous by faith...His righteousness not ours.
I believe according to the word, Moses, King David and Isaiah "saw further", by their writings they saw into the NT and the Promise of the Son.

 

[Helen]

I think the OT folks under the Law including Christ’s disciples were not technically saved until the glorification of Christ and at Pentecost when the spirit was dispensed.

No spirit means no seal of salvation!

I see your word "technically" there...I would put Legally.
Is says He rose for our justification..
Rom 4:25 "Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. "

So yes, that was the completion of the legal transaction ...we were freed.."Not guilty" ..satan's hold was broken

 

[Helen]

Did the OT folks have two ways or no way to salvation? Did they gain salvation by demonstrating faith with works, faith alone

One way. They believed God.
They didn't "gain faith" by demonstration faith. But God did ask them ( as Abraham, and tested them in it. )
Because of the strength of the law in the OT God did not show His whole nature to them...Law = Justice.
It annoys me ( and maybe it shows) when the anti-grace people chirp away saying..
"The God of the OT is how God is, He never changes."
True, God doesn't change yet He reveals more of Himself...in the OT He had not revealed His love side. In the OT we don't read " God is Love"
He had not revealed His Father heart.
Yet I strongly believe t more David saw it.hat Moses saw it...and even more David saw it. ( the instance of going where no one else dare to go..into the tabernacle and taking the holy shew bread, which he was not even allowed to touch, let alone eat. It was for the priest only.
David for sure saw the love, saw the Father heart...and that is why God said (in spite of Davids sins...) " A man after mine own heart"

So I contend the God of the OT is not the God of the NT..He is MORE because he revealed more. When the vail was rent, He was 'released' as it were..from behind the vail and He had shown all that He was right there on The Cross.
He showed the world His heart.

But...that is just one of my 'pet peeves' we all have 'em...That the God of the Old is the same as the God on the New...He is indeed the same...but He does NOT reveal Himself as the same...the legal transaction of the cross settled the deal...and the Father of Old AND New was satisfied.

 

[APAK]

Absolutely. See Acts 1:8 and 2:4.

Hebrews 11 confirms that the OT saints were all saved (justified) by grace through faith. Noah is just one example.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. (Heb 11:7)

The Bible calls this "imputed righteousness", and this is the righteousness of Christ imputed to the one who believes on Him. Therefore it is the same as being saved (justified) by grace through faith (Eph 2:8,9).

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all. (Rom 4:16)

Enoch, so was Noah for example, 'saved' directly by God because of his faith, credited with righteousness, and therefore did not need the cross for salvation. Like God allowed him to bypass this requirement which is mandatory for us today? And so we could also show faith as Noah did without the cross and also be saved?

Just probing to get a real good handle of the subject.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

I see your word "technically" there...I would put Legally.
Is says He rose for our justification..
Rom 4:25 "Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. "

So yes, that was the completion of the legal transaction ...we were freed.."Not guilty" ..satan's hold was broken

So Helen, if credited righteousness means salvation under the OT and also the Law, when did Noah receive the spirit of God within his heart, the seal of salvation, as a believer today?

Just probing as I believe it is an important topic that cannot be taken lightly. It is not a core belief although it is a strong secondary level belief that needs to be understood. It tells you about God as you began speaking of, the Law, grace and the significance of when Jesus had to be glorified for us to be saved.​

Bless you,

APAK...I like this subject..

 

[Helen]

when did Noah receive the spirit of God within his heart, the seal of salvation, as a believer today?

Where are you quoting that from?

There is no time in the Spirit ....in God it is all today.....,
If the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world...it was done deal...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Eight probing questions of salvation for people in all ages, and before Christ’s return….

Were the disciples saved before Jesus ascended to heaven?

There are many pastors today saying that in the OT some people were saved through faith and grace of the same faith and grace as of today, ‘under grace.’ What do you think?

What does it mean to be credited with righteousness? Is it the same as being ‘saved?’

Did the OT folks have two ways or no way to salvation? Did they gain salvation by demonstrating faith with works, faith alone, or belief in a future Messiah that would die for their sins, or not at all?

And where does the Law fit in all this fit as it relates to salvation before Christ’s ascension?

Is there a difference in the ‘grace’ bestowed upon folks in the OT and the NT for salvation?

I think the OT folks under the Law including Christ’s disciples were not technically saved until the glorification of Christ and at Pentecost when the spirit was dispensed.

No spirit means no seal of salvation!


What is your take on the subject?


Blessings to all,


APAK

Future Messiah, no doubt about it.

 

[APAK]

Where are you quoting that from?

The scripture that supports our salvation of course is spread in several Books of the NT. I can add them in my next post if you want, although I know you know of them already. Here are a couple that are pertinent, that was not familiar to Noah or even the Prophets..
(Eph 1:13) In whom you also believed, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, and were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
(Eph 1:14) which is a guarantee of our inheritance, of the final redemption of God's own possession, for the praise of His glory.(NEV)
(Joh 3:3) Jesus answered and said to him: Truly, truly, I say to you: Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
(Joh 3:4) Nicodemus said to him: How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?
(Joh 3:5) Jesus answered: Truly, truly, I say to you: Except one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!(ALL NEV)

APAK

 

[APAK]

So, Helen, when those in the OT were credited with righteousness through their own faith to God they actually possessed the spirit of God within them to grow them to perfection by the regenerative spirit to a likeness of Christ? I cannot see this view in scripture.

I can see the view that scripture says they were ‘credited’ with the same righteousness we have today as believers and, by logic and deduction, later received the spirit of Christ when Christ was glorified. Credit is not the real thing, it is a down payment or insurance policy that they shall receive the real spirit of salvation later within them.

Are you seeing the point I'm trying to get across.....whether we are of the OT or NT...we all grow to perfection, and all will be IN CHRIST by this spirit within us....so when Christ returns we will ALL have a likeness of Christ, every one of us. We must have it, and it does not go away, we need it to stay in the present of Christ and our Father.

APAK

 

[Helen]

Well to me..what the NT has in those verses is only showing what the OT saints had via the "promise of His coming". The Holy Spirit was active upon them in the OT ( Gideon, Elijah, Samson etc..) in fact it says ..and I forget who Gideon was fighting in this instance ...one of the -ites...
the literal says - .."and the Spirit clothed himself with Gideon."
It is noted in one of my old bibles, but I forget the reference now...

But .bottom line...I do not believe that they were any less 'saved'...they just couldn't 'partake' of it until after the resurrection. And all those who have gone ahead still have to wait ...they have not received the promise ...
Heb 11:39 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, God having provided some better thing for us,[all] that they without us should not be made perfect." [complete]
One body,one spirit...no one yet, has received the fullness of the promise...

 

[APAK]

Well to me..what the NT has in those verses is only showing what the OT saints had via the "promise of His coming". The Holy Spirit was active upon them in the OT ( Gideon, Elijah, Samson etc..) in fact it says ..and I forget who Gideon was fighting in this instance ...one of the -ites...
the literal says - .."and the Spirit clothed himself with Gideon."
It is noted in one of my old bibles, but I forget the reference now...

But .bottom line...I do not believe that they were any less 'saved'...they just couldn't 'partake' of it until after the resurrection. And all those who have gone ahead still have to wait ...they have not received the promise ...
Heb 11:39 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, God having provided some better thing for us,[all] that they without us should not be made perfect." [complete]
One body,one spirit...no one yet, has received the fullness of the promise...

I do understand your thinking Helen. The key part that I don't see in your writing though is that the OT folks must have the spirit of salvation within them as the NT folks have today to be 'saved.'. There is no way getting around it. They must have it sometime in their existence, on the earth or in Paradise. And the question then is, when do or did they obtain it? Yes I agree the promise is not yet fulfilled. It shall be fulfilled when we are in our new bodies the housing for our new spirit as Christ.

No worries Helen, it is a subject I keep trying to refine and understand completely. I'm an analyst at heart. I need your comments and others to know my view is way-off or on track..I need my view tested..I just cannot go off and believe general theories without explicit scripture support as many folks do, and they plaster them on-line as articles or sermons at the pulpit. When I sense something afoot I have to then dig it out and find out why..this is one of those subjects..ramblin' on again...

Thanks for your inputs Helen.

APAK

 

[Enoch111]

Enoch, so was Noah for example, 'saved' directly by God because of his faith, credited with righteousness, and therefore did not need the cross for salvation.

Noah was shown that he and his family needed the cross when he shed the blood of clean animals and birds and offered them up for a burnt offering.

And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. (Gen 8:20,21).

While we are not clearly told what the LORD had revealed to the OT patriarchs regarding the coming Lamb of God, we know that both Abel and Noah understood the necessity of offering burnt offerings and shedding the blood of those animals. And Abraham told Isaac that God would provide Himself a Lamb.

So this too was an act of faith in anticipation of Messiah the Lamb of God, who was slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world.

 

[APAK]

Noah was shown that he and his family needed the cross when he shed the blood of clean animals and birds and offered them up for a burnt offering.

And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. (Gen 8:20,21).

While we are not clearly told what the LORD had revealed to the OT patriarchs regarding the coming Lamb of God, we know that both Abel and Noah understood the necessity of offering burnt offerings and shedding the blood of those animals. And Abraham told Isaac that God would provide Himself a Lamb.

So this too was an act of faith in anticipation of Messiah the Lamb of God, who was slain from BEFORE the foundation of the world.

Enoch: I do understand your statements of the foreshadowing and pointing to the future lamb of God. And of course I agree with this. These folks and even those of no mention, before and under the Law, also must have known why they needed to ceremonially cleanse themselves from sin daily, weekly and annually. And many knew animals needed to shed their blood as a temporary fix, as a temporary salvation. Knowing and having faith in the future sacrifice that would be made by their Messiah to give them true and permanent salvation.

I believe the temporary sacrifices for sin and salvation before and under the law gave folks credit or down-payment with true righteousness for future permanent salvation; when the spirit would be dispensed to them, by the works of their Messiah and God in the future.

Bless you bro,

APAK

 

[Mayflower]

Enoch, so was Noah for example, 'saved' directly by God because of his faith, credited with righteousness, and therefore did not need the cross for salvation. Like God allowed him to bypass this requirement which is mandatory for us today? And so we could also show faith as Noah did without the cross and also be saved?

Just probing to get a real good handle of the subject.

Bless you,

APAK

I have wondered this question also, because my sister converted to Judaism when she got married and they do not believe in Jesus. Are Jews under that Old Covenant, where their faith is credited as righteousness, or is everyone under the New Covenant under Christ now, where if they do not believe in Him they are unsaved? If I am thread hijacking, I can move this to a new topic thread. But I wondered if this goes along with your questioning/line of thinking?

I think when Christ rose from the dead, those in Paradise were then released as well, because of their faith accredited to righteousness. Because on the cross Christ told the thief,

"And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Luke 23:43 NASB

So it is just a guess, but those in Paradise probably accepted Christ when they saw Him there and He rose again from the grave in 3 days. They already had the faith to believe.

 

[APAK]

I have wondered this question also, because my sister converted to Judaism when she got married and they do not believe in Jesus. Are Jews under that Old Covenant, where their faith is credited as righteousness, or is everyone under the New Covenant under Christ now, where if they do not believe in Him they are unsaved? If I am thread hijacking, I can move this to a new topic thread. But I wondered if this goes along with your questioning/line of thinking?

I think when Christ rose from the dead, those in Paradise were then released as well, because of their faith accredited to righteousness. Because on the cross Christ told the thief,

"And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Luke 23:43 NASB

So it is just a guess, but those in Paradise probably accepted Christ when they saw Him there and He rose again from the grave in 3 days. They already had the faith to believe.

No you are in-line mate ..very much on topic and on point. I like the easy and understandable language you present.

I would say that your sister as a new Judaic convert is not saved....actually if she was previously a professing Christian and not a true believer there maybe deeper ramifications. I do not want to judge...I remember someone asked me if I was converting to the same, because I was wanting to go to do Temple bible study. I quickly reacted harshly, and condemned that person for even thinking such a thing. It would be like a Jesus turn-coat, like I would truly fall away from Christ. I later apologized for my tone and said, no, I just wanted another perspective on the OT. I will always be in Christ.

Great input,

APAK

 

[Mayflower]

No you are in-line mate ..very much on topic and on point. I like the easy and understandable language you present.

I would say that your sister as a new Judaic convert is not saved....actually if she was previously a professing Christian and not a true believer there maybe deeper ramifications. I do not want to judge...I remember someone asked me if I was converting to the same, because I was wanting to go to do Temple bible study. I quickly reacted harshly, and condemned that person for even thinking such a thing. It would be like a Jesus turn-coat, like I would truly fall away from Christ. I later apologized for my tone and said, no, I just wanted another perspective on the OT. I will always be in Christ.

Great input,

APAK

Yeh, my sister may have professed Christ, but I don't believe she was ever a Christian. Yeh, I was just hoping, but I will keep her in prayer. Jesus Christ alone can save. And I have told her this.

The other question that stood out to me was if all the disciples went to Heaven. Only one I doubt would be Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus. I think Jesus picked him as a disciple to show that some professing Christians would not be true believers.

 

[Helen]

The key part that I don't see in your writing though is that the OT folks must have the spirit of salvation within them as the NT folks have today to be 'saved.'. There is no way getting around it. They must have it sometime in their existence, on the earth or in Paradise. And the question then is, when do or did they obtain it?

To be honest here...I am obviously missing something. ( which is not hard for me to do!! )

I can't see WHY you say what I made bold above in your quote.
They already were saved when God declares that they 'lived by faith' their faith saved them.
*Are you saying that because they didn't have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, that they weren't saved?
If so, then no, I do not agree with you.

The Holy Spirit dwelling within us does not "save" us...He empowers us for service, * But we are saved ONLY by and through the shedding of blood.
" And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.... "

The blood shed of the Spotless Lamb of God opened the door for us to be redeemed and set free.
The Spirit of God is not our Saviour , Jesus Christ is our Saviour.

Or maybe I am miss-reading what I thought you wrote?