Blotted out of The Book Of Life?

[aspen]

Yeah,

Aspen,
The Catholic church believes in the trichotomy of man.
Man has three parts:
Body
Soul
Spirit

Check this out with your priest or somebody that knows. Not all priests remember their theology...

This is what the CC believes:

View attachment 3459

Thanks for the reply

A: The terms “soul” and “spirit” are used in different senses in the Bible (Catechism of the Catholic Church 363). Genesis 2:7 states that God formed man’s body from the ground, breathed into him the breath (spirit) of life, and so “man became a living soul” (literal translation). Here the term “soul” is used to refer to the whole man, composed of both body and spirit. The same use is found when we describe a shipwreck and say things like “70 souls were lost,” meaning 70 people died.

A different use is found in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4, where John sees the souls of those who have been slain for the gospel. Here “soul” obviously does not refer to the whole, embodied person, but to the immaterial part, the spirit, that survives death.

In two Bible verses (1 Thess. 5:23 and Heb. 4:12) “soul” and “spirit” seem to be used in distinct senses, but this does not prove the existence of two immaterial substances in man. The authors use Hebrew parallelism for poetic effect; they are not talking about constituent parts of man.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also sheds light on this issue: “Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit . . . The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. ‘Spirit’ signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can graciously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God” (CCC 367).

Perhaps we will just have to wait and see......i think language can be limiting on this suject

 

[bbyrd009]

Eph. 6:12 - Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

2 Tim. 2:3 - Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

It does not have to say the word "fight". It is very clear that our enemy is like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour

poor tranny on the 1st imo, we just read it in the Berean, which indicates a diff aspect. And i think "suffering" is different than "fighting." I could also start from "turn the other cheek" here, but this is already settled dogma wadr; there is no "fight satan" anywhere; the instruction is to resist, not fight. Let the Catholics fight if they want imo

 

[bbyrd009]

We believe the Word of God.

so does satan, Heb. My point was that you are making a blanket statement about other people without basis, and then including yourself in with them. Iow who is this "we?" You might like to believe that it is "other Christians" perhaps, but then you can't even agree with them on much of anything, right? Or at least i can't. So see the disconnect there, if you will.

"We" believe that you don't even have Word identified correctly yet, wadr.
See what i did there?

Is satan considered righteous and a friend of God?

that is not the point Heb. Lots of ppl consider themselves or their peer group righteous and friends of God, doesn't make it true right

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, God is not a narcissist bbyrd.

once again Heb you have quoted me for no reason that i can see, and we are not even really having a conversation here wadr.
Or at least i cannot connect this statement to my quote any kind of way, my apologies

word, yeah i feel ya kid. teh peeps i've come across saving themselves are all non-osas. check it yo.

we all know what god you serve bro, it's not like you're hiding it. peace yo get that slurpy

depends on wut you use them for, self righteousness ? word

ok bye Heb

 

[bbyrd009]

If you can tell me about this mystery of yours, cloaked in secretspeak,. I'll provide you with some scripture.

ah, i guess there's enough in it already

 

[bbyrd009]

and we just assume that He was referring to an afterlife, all by ourselves, bc that is what we want to hear imo. So then no one hears what they don't want to hear, "No one has ever gone up to heaven except He Who came down from it, the Son of Man." and we make up false doctrines about a place called "hell" that cannot be Quoted from Scripture, to justify our belief that we might go to heaven after we are dead, when Christ was very plain about all that, too; He could have said Tartarus, but He said Gehenna instead.

So logical thinkers are going to be hoist on their own petard when they cannot explain why they did not contemplate their own lack of logic. And i don't mean "when they die" or "tomorrow," i mean right now

If you can tell me about this mystery of yours, cloaked in secretspeak

ha, wish i could figure out what you mean here; what part is "secretspeak" there? i dunno if rephrasing would help? We misinterpret "eternal" to suit our egos and then build everything from that straw, more or less?

 

[LC627]

LC!
IF is a VERY BIG WORD!!

IF changes everything!
But, believe what you will, as long as you believe I guess.
I do wish you'd come to know the real God of the bible, but your decision.

YES. You're decision. You DO have free will. Try reading the bible again with this in mind and you'll see it all over. I've listed many verses and won't go into this again.

As to Him looking for you...Jesus is our good shepherd, He always comes looking for us.
Mathew 18:12

View attachment 3460

The will of man is not free if it is enslaved to sin. Why would Jesus have to set us free if we were already free?
If you are a slave then you are not free.
I believe man has free agency to make choices but those choices are influenced by the fallen nature and will never desire submission to God.
We are all held in sins prison while living in an open world.

depraved is depraved. You're not just a little dead and a little alive, dead is dead.
The very fact that none of us can stand before God apart from Christ is proof of that.
We have no righteousness or good on our own.

Even Jesus says that "...no one is good except God alone" Mark 10:18

 

[Enoch111]

We misinterpret "eternal" to suit our egos and then build everything from that straw, more or less?

What's there to "misinterpret"? Eternal means everlasting, and everlasting means that which does not come to an end. This is not rocket science, and has nothing to do with egos.

 

[Heb 13:8]

so does satan, Heb. My point was that you are making a blanket statement about other people without basis, and then including yourself in with them. Iow who is this "we?" You might like to believe that it is "other Christians" perhaps, but then you can't even agree with them on much of anything, right? Or at least i can't. So see the disconnect there, if you will.

"We" believe that you don't even have Word identified correctly yet, wadr.
See what i did there?

that is not the point Heb. Lots of ppl consider themselves or their peer group righteous and friends of God, doesn't make it true right

Well, thankfuly believers in Christ aren't Satan...... have a good day bird

 

[Enoch111]

The will of man is not free if it is enslaved to sin.

This notion is what Calvinists believe and promote, but it is a false interpretation of the sinful condition of mankind.

All human beings are NOT continuously and constantly sinful or evildoers, which would be the case if men were totally depraved. The Bible tells us plainly that the unsaved Gentiles can even do right according to their conscience (Romans 2).

And the Bible also makes it very clear that under the supernatural power of Gospel (Rom 1), accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, those who are dead in their trespasses and sins can be saved, and are saved.

Each one of the five points of Calvinism (TULIP) is false. You would be wise to set aside this entire concept and go back to the Gospel and study it without Calvinistic filters.

 

[APAK]

An unbeliever of evil intent is relentless to accuse a believer that they are hypocritical and can lose their salvation. They say they are sinners like everyone else, so yet over it. They say, look at this verse, see..!

(Col 1:23) If indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to all creation under heaven. Of which I Paul was made a servant, (NEV)

They will say look at this verse (Col 1:23), it says you must continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel.

They say you cannot continue in faith and be firmly grounded in the gospel 100% of the time so you must lose your salvation at some time! The unbeliever is counting on it!

This is the usual accusation and it comes from the teachings and doctrines of demons.

What the unbeliever fails to notice is the they do not know what they are saying. They will NEVER know!

First, a fake believer of apostacy like themselves will taste or try it (faith and gospel belief) out for a while and stop having faith in Christ and the gospel. They think that all believers are like them and experience the same things.

A believer who has the spirit of God in their heart will continue hanging on to Christ and the words of gospel because their heart is being transformed to a likeness of Christ. They know it and feel it, not necessarily every moment or every day.

Sin or the lack of sin had nothing to do with their continued faith they have in their Lord and savior.

Not one believer is perfect and can be walking in the spirit 100% of the time or in faith 100% of the time. If an unbeliever thinks that a believer should be always 100% in firm faith, always in the spirit, it is a lie and they deceive themselves.

When the dust settled in the battles of living in this world and in this flesh, that weakens a believer’s spirit and faith, they dust themselves off and continue their faith in Christ. A believer does not permanently STOP having faith in their savior, only unbelievers do this, every time. This is the signature of an apostate or a professing believer that does not possess a transforming heart to the likeness of Christ. Most unbelievers are not intellectually challenged in scripture, they are spiritually challenged in scripture. The spirit of God does not speak to them for understanding the truth.

There is no loss of salvation for a true believer noted in Col 1:23 as in other scripture passages or verses.

Believers just continue forward to the prize. Maybe for some recovery is very slowly, for some very fast. Their endurance though is for life. They CONTINUE ON! They are overcomers and shall walk in ‘white robes.’

Bless all,

APAK

Follow-up Post to my previous Post

Answering my own posts now…how delightful…

In my haste to ‘kill off’ a misunderstood scripture such as Col 1 :23, I neglected to read the entire context and its setting as I usually do. Shame on me. The verse is not even concerning one’s salvation. It is all about a believer, who needs or wishes to know (to always know) the will of God ‘if’ they continue in firm faith and the gospel so it will INCREASE or fill their knowledge of God. Nothing to do with any salvation test or loss.

So, a would-be unbeliever’s attempt to place doubt in a believer’s mind and heart concerning their salvation by using this scripture, is a total bust. The waving of the ‘if’ one continues in faith, as a test of salvation state, again shows ignorance of what is being meant in Col 1:23.

The obvious verses that really open the meaning of verse 23 is back in verses 9-14.

(Col 1:9) For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray and make requests for you, that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,
(Col 1:10) to walk worthily in the Lord fully pleasing him, bearing fruit in every good work; increasing in the knowledge of God,
(Col 1:11) strengthened with all power, according to the might of his glory, to all patience and endurance, with joy;
(Col 1:12) giving thanks to the Father, who made us suitable to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light.
(Col 1:13) Who delivered us out of the power of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love;
(Col 1:14) in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; (ALL NEV)

We pray to new believers: Once the gospel is heard and believed, and you then obtained salvation, it is then to do God’s will by (If) having a firm faith and grounded in the reason for your faith, the gospel of salvation.

Bless all,

APAK

 

[LC627]

This notion is what Calvinists believe and promote, but it is a false interpretation of the sinful condition of mankind.

All human beings are NOT continuously and constantly sinful or evildoers, which would be the case if men were totally depraved. The Bible tells us plainly that the unsaved Gentiles can even do right according to their conscience (Romans 2).

And the Bible also makes it very clear that under the supernatural power of Gospel (Rom 1), accompanied by the power of the Holy Spirit, those who are dead in their trespasses and sins can be saved, and are saved.

Each one of the five points of Calvinism (TULIP) is false. You would be wise to set aside this entire concept and go back to the Gospel and study it without Calvinistic filters.

John Calvin did not create the acronym TULIP
Sin has influenced every part of the human body, those who deny it still like to cling to a false perception of their own goodness.
"Good" people do not need Jesus or saving from sin or have the wrath of God remaining on them

Romans 3:12 - All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one

 

[Nancy]

Agreed.
I've had to use them. If you do any study of theology at all (I'm not saying I know it all) you must use theologians who have studied scripture and the bible in general to arrive at what we know today. I've taught some things to kids, so I've learned a lot. And, mostly, I've learned how little I know.

Couldn't agree with you more about Calvin. In fact, I'd say those that are of that theology trust in HIM more than the bible. The idea is to check everything against the bible in a plain and simple manner following the rules of exegesis. As the Bareans did in Acts 17:11.

I left the CC because I couldn't do the above, although, I must say, many of their teachings are right on and very deep in theology and I'm sorry some of their doctrine is extra-biblical and depends on other documents, which they call Tradition. Everyone should read the first paragraphs and pages of the CCC. It's really a beautiful documentation of man's relationship to God. And thus I love both the catholic church and the protestant church -- I find we each have our problems. I believe you and I don't agree about eternal security, but there are some verses that make this seem so; there's nothing in the bible to support Calvin's ideas. It's a mystery to me how anyone could be of that theology.

"It's a mystery to me how anyone could be of that theology."
DITTO

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, thankfuly believers in Christ aren't Satan

that's not what the Book says tho, is it Heb

19You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe--and they shudder.

 

[Enoch111]

John Calvin did not create the acronym TULIP

It does not matter. It sums up his theology (which is a far cry from the Gospel).

 

[Enoch111]

that's not what the Book says tho, is it Heb

19You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe--and they shudder.

You manage to twist Scriptures quite nicely. To suggest that believers are demons is itself a doctrine of demons. Shame on you for promoting Satanic lies.

 

[LC627]

It does not matter. It sums up his theology (which is a far cry from the Gospel).

Would you be a Christian if it was not for God convicting you?
No. You would not be. None of us would be.
If it was not the work/grace of God then there would be no believers.
It is pretty clear the world hates God and humans by nature do not desire Him.

 

[LC627]

(which is a far cry from the Gospel

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 - But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the LORD, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our LORD Jesus Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

If I was dead in sin then how could I raise myself up to life to exercise faith? If God did not convict me I'd still be dead in sin. Let me ask you this: If God did not work on the hearts of man, how many Christians would there be in the world? None. No one would repent. We are all equally dead so what makes you different than those who do not repent?

Hi LC,
The total depravity of man is an important aspect of your theology so I wanted to spend some time on it.

After the fall, man did become depraved. I don't like using that word, but for the sake of conversation, let's just say that he did not become TOTALLY depraved. He DID acquire a sin nature. He does tend toward sin since the sin nature is a servant to satan. Even if persons are very good people, they still do not have the spirit of God in them and the sin nature does reign.

But do we need God to only reveal Himself to us or do we need Him to totally pull us up out of our depravity? If we need Him to pull us up out of depravity, and He is a God of grace (as I know you believe)...then why doesn't He just save everyone? You put too much on God and thus make HIM totally responsible for those who end up in hell. Again...this is NOT a God of love and the entire bible, from the OT to the NT states that God IS LOVE.
Psalm 136:26
John 3:16
Galatians 2:20
1 John 4:7-8

Those who go to hell, will go there because THEY did not want to trust in God and so did not have God's spirit in them. They refused His love and were lost at death.

When Jesus was washing Peter's feet at Passover, Peter told Jesus He could not wash his feet. Jesus said Peter had to allow Him to. Why? Because Peter had to accept Jesus' love for him; it was a way of humbling himself before Jesus. If GOD saves persons with no input from them, why didn't Jesus just let this go since HE certainly knew that Peter was a saved person?
John 13:8

Also, we're told many times what it is that saves us. I've never read anywhere that God saves us and we have nothing to do about it.
Romans 10:9 We must confess with out mouth and BELIEVE IN OUR HEART that Jesus is Lord. We confess with out mouth...an action WE must take. Where, in this verse, does it state we have nothing to do to be saved?

John 3:16 WHOEVER, anyone in the entire world, BELIEVES will be saved.
1 Peter 1:9 The outcome of the salvation of our soul is through our FAITH.

We also have the problem of Jesus incarnation. How do you explain that Jesus was made in every way like us, Hebrews 2:17, and yet He was not totally depraved. He was born with the affects of Adam's sin, but if He were totally depraved, and totally under the power of satan, how would He have been able to battle and win satan in the desert?
Mathew 4
No, both Jesus and we have the power to decide to NOT sin. The unsaved are not sinning every moment they have the opportunity. If they were TOTALLY depraved, they would never do good deeds.

2 Timothy 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Once again, Paul is saying that works do not save us. We ARE saved by Christ, who HAS saved us and called us with a HOLY CALLING...the "called us" refers to the holy calling, which God purposed, through His wonderful grace, from the beginning of time. This refers back to Genesis 3:17. God purposed His salvation plan and how to save us after falling into sin in the Garden. His OWN PURPOSE is that man should have the opportunity to save Himself. He put enmity between man and satan and we are indeed freed from satan.

All of those that the Father has given to Jesus will not be lost (John 6:39)
Everyone born of God overcomes the world (1 John 5:4)
We are sealed for the day of redemption (Eph. 4:30)

John 6:39
New American Standard Bible
"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."

The above verse does not speak about PERSONS that God Father has given to Jesus. In other verses it says that Jesus is necessary to go to God.
John 14:6 No one goes to the Father except through Jesus.
So, you see, it must mean something else. It's referring to the work of Jesus.
I usually don't post links, but this explains it well....please look this up for yourself.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(39) And this is the Father’s will.—Read, with best MSS., And this is the will of Him that sent Me.Comp. Note on John 6:40. These two verses further set forth the divine will in the mission of Christ, first in relation to the Father’s gift, and then in relation to man’s acceptance. Both verses make emphatic the expression of that will in the mission, Him that sent Me; both refer its fulfilment to the final victory over sin and death, at the last day.Both state the will of God in a single clause, prefaced by the most signal proof of divine love in God revealed on earth, and followed by its end, in man raised to heaven.
The “all” is here neuter, referring to the whole extent of the Messianic work. (Comp. John 6:37.) Vast as this is, beyond our power of thought, including all times, and all places, and all nations, and it may be other worlds, it is the divine will that nothing should be lost. In the moral, as well as in the physical world, no force can perish.

Hath given me . . .—The past tense here, because the gift is thought of in its completion at the last day. (See John 6:37.)


1 John 5:4
1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Please read 1 John 5:1...it says that WHOEVER believes that Jesus is the Christ is BORN OF GOD.

So, WHOEVER is born of God, in verse 5 is referring to those who believe in Jesus...of their own free will, for what is the victory that overcomes the world? OUR FAITH. Verse 4

Ephesians 4:30
We are sealed, we could be unsealed, just like we could be blotted out of the book of life.

And finally, as I've mentioned before, A true born again Christian does not make the practice of living a sinful life. You and I can throw our verses at each other all day long and I doubt we will budge, lol. It all comes back to how you view mans condition. I see man as the Bible says: Evil, enslaved to sin, dead in trespasses, and enemies of God. There is nothing good in man or anything that desires submission to God unless convicted. Goodness, we made it 6 chapters (that's page #7 in my Bible) in the Bible before God could not stand the wickedness of man any longer and warned Noah He was going to flood the earth.

You believe in eternal security, it is just on the basis of your performance.
You do everything right and you'll be alright.

I believe fully in God's power and the work Jesus did on the cross.
I couldn't save myself so how can I maintain salvation myself?

How could we do everything right?
Can YOU do everything right?
Am I the Savior?
I keep hearing this and it's getting rather silly.

This I know for sure:
God is love.
God wants everyone to be saved, but according to HIS conditions.
If anyone goes to hell, it's because they REFUSED God's offer of salvation, which is to everyone.
We all have the capability to answer to God's call.
He reveals Himself, we either accept or deny.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah,


Thanks for the reply

A: The terms “soul” and “spirit” are used in different senses in the Bible (Catechism of the Catholic Church 363). Genesis 2:7 states that God formed man’s body from the ground, breathed into him the breath (spirit) of life, and so “man became a living soul” (literal translation). Here the term “soul” is used to refer to the whole man, composed of both body and spirit. The same use is found when we describe a shipwreck and say things like “70 souls were lost,” meaning 70 people died.

A different use is found in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4, where John sees the souls of those who have been slain for the gospel. Here “soul” obviously does not refer to the whole, embodied person, but to the immaterial part, the spirit, that survives death.

In two Bible verses (1 Thess. 5:23 and Heb. 4:12) “soul” and “spirit” seem to be used in distinct senses, but this does not prove the existence of two immaterial substances in man. The authors use Hebrew parallelism for poetic effect; they are not talking about constituent parts of man.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church also sheds light on this issue: “Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit . . . The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. ‘Spirit’ signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can graciously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God” (CCC 367).

Perhaps we will just have to wait and see......i think language can be limiting on this suject

Hi Aspen,
I checked the CCC.
I must say that it's rather confusing at times.
You noticed how it says "sometimes" it could mean a separation between the soul and spirit.

This is why I asked you to ask someone and not get the info from the CCC...

I was told that they're teaching the triune nature now. If you get a chance, please ask and then post. I'm also going to ask the monk I study with, but he's an older person. I also know someone who'll be a priest next year...next time I see him.
(the priests I know are also older and I know they don't "keep up").