Blotted out of The Book Of Life?

[amadeus]

Do

you believe you are saved?
If so, you left and came back.
You did not believe and did not come back.
Impossible.
How thin is your love?
Is your love for God agape love or regular old earthly love?
We can't know every individual, but God does.
And if they truly love him, no matter what they do, he will save them.

Oh no it was and is a done deal, but it is my testimony, which I have detailed many times in other places [possibly here as well]. It is not up for you or anyone to pick apart. That is not why I have it. Only God can change a person's conviction. We'll leave it just there! We do live for God by faith rather than by facts.

 

[amadeus]

yeah and the devil's mess wants you to depend on yourself to keep you saved, not the cross. God bless

No, we are not to depend upon ourselves but upon God. Is He not able to see us through everything? Is He not able to overcome in us every obstacle that stands between us and Him?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

And so God sent His Son and provided the Holy Spirit for us to sit back and watch or was it to accomplish those things greater even than His Son did? [John 14:12]

 

[Heb 13:8]

No, we are not to depend upon ourselves but upon God. Is He not able to see us through everything? Is He not able to overcome in us every obstacle that stands between us and Him?

You tell me, you're the one preaching non-osas.

 

[amadeus]

You tell me, you're the one preaching non-osas.

You are emphasizing a distinction as if every person must make it in order to serve God. I do not believe that. It is certainly not how I serve God. I work each day to love Him more to do more of what pleases Him. I read, I study, I pray. The only time this OSAS idea, one way or the other, even comes into my head most of the time is when someone mentions it on a forum like this. When it is just me and God why would I need it. The correct answers are all His, whether I understand them or not. Sometimes I do not... but He is also not finished with me yet.

To me when it is mentioned and/or I read about it, it has struck me wrong according to what I have read in the scriptures and according to the understanding I have received. I don't condemn people for believing that way. If they really do believe that way, then God can bless them there as He can bless me where I am. It is not my full time job to tell everyone how to serve God, but sometimes He makes it my job for the moment and I cannot disobey Him, can I? I can only speak or write what is in my heart. Should I write what is in someone else's heart? For anyone serving God, whether believes in OSAS or not, does anyone other than God give any real increase?
I would certainly say, No.

 

[LC627]

LC,
Just a couple of comments:

First of all, if you read my post no. 419 carefully, you will find NOWHERE in that post was it stated by me that Jesus was born with a sin nature! How could God have a sin nature? How could you even think I would say that? If you notice, no one else even replied to this because I'm sure everyone reading along understood that I did not say that.

I'll say it again: Jesus was created in our image. He was like us in every way except that He remained sinless. He REMAINED sinless.
Hebrews 4:15
15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin.

If the point is being made that He did not sin...it means that the possibility existed for Him to sin...not because He was born with the sin nature, but because He was tempted in every way as we were but did not fall into sin as we do.

The reason Jesus was not born with the sin nature is what you stated,,,God is His Father, not Joseph.

Hebrews 2:18 says:
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Jesus had to be fully human and fully God in order to be able to die for our sins and be our Mediator between us and God.

I used the example of Jesus being like us in His humanity because it does represent a problem for the theology you hold to.
If Jesus was tempted as we are, this DISPROVES total depravity, it does not prove it, as you state above.

If we are totally depraved, the only way for Jesus to be tempted in the same way that we are tempted is if he was also totally depraved. But this is clearly not the case because Jesus never sinned. Therefore, we cannot be totally depraved. Just as Jesus could resist temptation, so could we.

If YOU are correct about total depravity and Jesus WAS HUMAN, then it would mean one of the following:

1. 
   
   
   • Jesus did sin.
   • Jesus was not fully human and/or was not tempted in the same way we are.

Since BOTH of the above are wrong, it means you are wrong.
Jesus was like us, and like us He had the possibility NOT TO SIN. This proves total depravity to be WRONG.


Regarding Romans 8:7...
This is true for everyone that is not born again. But the problem is still HOW does one become born again? I've given you a lot of scripture. I'll add
1 John 2:2 Jesus died FOR THE WHOLE WORLD.
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
(if they choose to accept God's grace)

2 Corinthians 6:1-2
1 And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain—

2 for He says,
“AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU,
AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU.”
Behold, now is “THE ACCEPTABLE TIME,” behold, now is “THE DAY OF SALVATION”—





Paul URGES the Corinthians not to RECEIVE the grace of God IN VAIN. God's grace is extended to ALL, it's up to each individual person to accept it or deny it. Paul is urging the Corinthians to accept it. This shows a free will choice. God helps us by His grace to accept Him, He does not force us to accept Him since that would not be true love.

And, as always, I remind you that God wishes ALL MEN to be saved:
2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

And yet, by your theology, God DOES wish for many to perish.
Your theology is against everything we know about God.

I know you never said that Jesus had a sin nature; I was pointing out the fact that Joseph's seed would not have been good - all humans are by default rebellious against God. Being tempted is not a sin, giving in to the temptation is. Jesus was fully human and He was fully God - Are you both? No, you're not. I apologize for any miscommunication in my reply. There is nothing you or anyone else could tell me that would change my view on mans depravity. When the Bible says that no one is good, that includes everyone. I took the position you believe for years until I did could not hide my face from the fact that man is 100% evil apart from God nor desires God.

Believe it or not, you (and myself included) would still be dead in sin if it was not for God's conviction. None of us would have chosen God if He did not first convict us.

Were you a good person before you became a Christian?
Did you choose God on your own as easily as you chose to sin?

"Salvation is not for a sick man who needs a doctor, but a dead man who needs a miracle"

 

[Heb 13:8]

The only time this OSAS idea, one way or the other, even comes into my head most of the time is when someone mentions it on a forum like this. When it is just me and God why would I need it.

Well, OSAS is not something to obtain. You should already have it.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Oh no it was and is a done deal, but it is my testimony, which I have detailed many times in other places [possibly here as well]. It is not up for you or anyone to pick apart. That is not why I have it. Only God can change a person's conviction. We'll leave it just there! We do live for God by faith rather than by facts.

You confuse me how you talk sometimes.
Maybe it's my inability to understand.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ya, they're called believers in Christ.

and satan is obviously in their midst Heb, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
i'm not just saying this to be denigrating or whatever ok, there is a very important point in there imo

 

[Taken]

You are emphasizing a distinction as if every person must make it in order to serve God. I do not believe that. It is certainly not how I serve God. I work each day to love Him more to do more of what pleases Him. I read, I study, I pray. The only time this OSAS idea, one way or the other, even comes into my head most of the time is when someone mentions it on a forum like this. When it is just me and God why would I need it. The correct answers are all His, whether I understand them or not. Sometimes I do not... but He is also not finished with me yet.

To me when it is mentioned and/or I read about it, it has struck me wrong according to what I have read in the scriptures and according to the understanding I have received. I don't condemn people for believing that way. If they really do believe that way, then God can bless them there as He can bless me where I am. It is not my full time job to tell everyone how to serve God, but sometimes He makes it my job for the moment and I cannot disobey Him, can I? I can only speak or write what is in my heart. Should I write what is in someone else's heart? For anyone serving God, whether believes in OSAS or not, does anyone other than God give any real increase?
I would certainly say, No.

OSAS ~ is highlighted By and Through what Thee Christ Lord Himself has Done and Given a particular man.

It is the man electing, by the man exercising his own FREEWILL, to; call on the Lord, To;
Give his own life To the Lord.

The Lord is not Fooled.
He knows all things; past, present, future.

With all things considered... The Lord Does or Does Not SAVE A man, who calls on Him.

Meaning... The Lord Does Give His Gift of Salvation to a man whose request is For The Lords Salvation, Based on the mans True Belief In Christ...And Does NOT give His Gift of Salvation to a mans whose request for His Gift of Salvation is based on a LIE.

The Saving of a mans SOUL, is only Part of a Conversion. The man is Forgiven. The crucifying of the mans Body, and His Cleansing and Sanctifying of that BODY, and His giving the man a new Heart, and His Giving that man His SEED, that Births the man a New Spirit, and His Giving that man His INDWELLING Spirit.....Are....
His ONE TIME Permanent Gifts Given By and Through Christ.

Scripture teaches to the man to be Sure of his election.

The Lord says the Giving of Holy Spirit Dwelling withIN a man is forever.

Scripture teaches a man WITHOUT the Holy Spirit shall die in his sins.

Unforgiven men are NOT forever with the Lord.

Forgiveness is given a man While the man is Alive in his own Life, which is his Blood.

The Lord who came out from God in Heaven, To Earth, in the likeness as a man, to Give that Flesh ONCE, (Prepared of God), For the life of the world, did so.

A man, who WHOLE heartedly Believes That,
And ONCE Wholeheartly, chooses to Accept the Lords Gifts...does so Once and Forever.

The Beauty of The Lords Gift and the mans Heartful Acceptance IS;
The mans KEEPING of the Lords Gift is not dependent UPON the man himself....but rather is fully KEPT for the man, By and Through the Indwelling Power of The Spirit of God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Heb 13:8]

and satan is obviously in their midst Heb, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.
i'm not just saying this to be denigrating or whatever ok, there is a very important point in there imo

believers have protection from God bbyrd. nonbelievers are more in danger, ya know of possession and stuff, technically satan already has ownership over them until they give ther life to Christ whether you choose to acknowlege it or not,

i'm not just saying this to be denigrating or whatever ok,

 

[bbyrd009]

believers have protection from God bbyrd. nonbelievers are more in danger, ya know of possession and stuff, technically satan already has ownership over them until they give ther life to Christ whether you choose to acknowlege it or not,

i'm not just saying this to be denigrating or whatever ok,

ok Heb, i'm sure you are doing God's will ok, and i wish you the best

 

[GodsGrace]

I know you never said that Jesus had a sin nature; I was pointing out the fact that Joseph's seed would not have been good - all humans are by default rebellious against God. Being tempted is not a sin, giving in to the temptation is. Jesus was fully human and He was fully God - Are you both? No, you're not. I apologize for any miscommunication in my reply. There is nothing you or anyone else could tell me that would change my view on mans depravity. When the Bible says that no one is good, that includes everyone. I took the position you believe for years until I did could not hide my face from the fact that man is 100% evil apart from God nor desires God.

Believe it or not, you (and myself included) would still be dead in sin if it was not for God's conviction. None of us would have chosen God if He did not first convict us.

Were you a good person before you became a Christian?
Did you choose God on your own as easily as you chose to sin?

"Salvation is not for a sick man who needs a doctor, but a dead man who needs a miracle"

LC, I also apologize if I didn't understand you.

Was I a good person before I became a Christian?
I don't think I'm a good person now. When I look at how holy God is, I realize we cannot be good. Even Jesus said that only our Father in heaven is good.
Mark 10:18

But we have no relationship with God whatsoever until we accept Him and restore our relationship with Him.
John 3:16

I chose God easily because He revealed Himself to me. I called out to Him and He replied. I had known about God all my life because God reveals Himself to all mankind as Romans 1:19 states.

Romans 1:20 says that no man has an excuse to deny God because He has made Himself known to man from the beginning of time.

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Those that do NOT choose God are without excuse when they will not be with God for all eternity, because THEY have turned God down and have not accepted Him.

Salvation is for the sick, not for the dead.
Jesus said so Himself:

Mathew 9:12
12But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

If you notice, Jesus said He came to call the righteous...NOT to convert them Himself. He CALLS, they must REPLY.
Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. "


Also, notice the centurian in Mathew 8. He has faith FIRST and then He goes to Jesus. He does NOT go to Jesus for the healing and THEN gets faith. Faith comes first and then relationship with God and regeneration.

 

[LC627]

LC, I also apologize if I didn't understand you.

Was I a good person before I became a Christian?
I don't think I'm a good person now. When I look at how holy God is, I realize we cannot be good. Even Jesus said that only our Father in heaven is good.
Mark 10:18

But we have no relationship with God whatsoever until we accept Him and restore our relationship with Him.
John 3:16

I chose God easily because He revealed Himself to me. I called out to Him and He replied. I had known about God all my life because God reveals Himself to all mankind as Romans 1:19 states.

Romans 1:20 says that no man has an excuse to deny God because He has made Himself known to man from the beginning of time.

Romans 1:19-20
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Those that do NOT choose God are without excuse when they will not be with God for all eternity, because THEY have turned God down and have not accepted Him.

Salvation is for the sick, not for the dead.
Jesus said so Himself:

Mathew 9:12
12But when Jesus heard this, He said, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. 13“But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

If you notice, Jesus said He came to call the righteous...NOT to convert them Himself. He CALLS, they must REPLY.
Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. "


Also, notice the centurian in Mathew 8. He has faith FIRST and then He goes to Jesus. He does NOT go to Jesus for the healing and THEN gets faith. Faith comes first and then relationship with God and regeneration.

I appreciate our conversations, at times what we are trying to say may get lost in miscommunication - especially on the Internet.
From what I've gathered I think you and I can have some middle ground.

1) We both believe salvation is by God's grace - none of us deserve it.
2) Man is fallen in nature and is not good. We may disagree on how far man is gone but we agree no one is righteous on their own.
3) We must continue in our faith and continually seek God's guidance and strength.

 

[amadeus]

Well, OSAS is not something to obtain. You should already have it.

We receive what God gives us. I already have what He has given me, but some of it, or even all of it, is only for my use until, if and when, I inherit. Until I do, if I do not really own a thing. Who does, as it all belongs to God?

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." Rom 8:16-17

Even what we apparently possess [not necessarily own] is by faith rather than by knowledge, is it not?
When is it that we inherit? What is it that we inherit? How is it we know that we have already inherited?

When is it we move from believing to knowing? Should we be in too much a hurry to get there?

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29

 

[amadeus]

You confuse me how you talk sometimes.
Maybe it's my inability to understand.

When and if you need to understand anyone, will not God give you the understanding? I really am working to be on your side so long as you are working to always be on God's side, for should that not always be our goals, yours and mine?

 

[amadeus]

OSAS ~ is highlighted By and Through what Thee Christ Lord Himself has Done and Given a particular man.

It is the man electing, by the man exercising his own FREEWILL, to; call on the Lord, To;
Give his own life To the Lord.

The Lord is not Fooled.
He knows all things; past, present, future.

With all things considered... The Lord Does or Does Not SAVE A man, who calls on Him.

Meaning... The Lord Does Give His Gift of Salvation to a man whose request is For The Lords Salvation, Based on the mans True Belief In Christ...And Does NOT give His Gift of Salvation to a mans whose request for His Gift of Salvation is based on a LIE.

The Saving of a mans SOUL, is only Part of a Conversion. The man is Forgiven. The crucifying of the mans Body, and His Cleansing and Sanctifying of that BODY, and His giving the man a new Heart, and His Giving that man His SEED, that Births the man a New Spirit, and His Giving that man His INDWELLING Spirit.....Are....
His ONE TIME Permanent Gifts Given By and Through Christ.

Scripture teaches to the man to be Sure of his election.

The Lord says the Giving of Holy Spirit Dwelling withIN a man is forever.

Scripture teaches a man WITHOUT the Holy Spirit shall die in his sins.

Unforgiven men are NOT forever with the Lord.

Forgiveness is given a man While the man is Alive in his own Life, which is his Blood.

The Lord who came out from God in Heaven, To Earth, in the likeness as a man, to Give that Flesh ONCE, (Prepared of God), For the life of the world, did so.

A man, who WHOLE heartedly Believes That,
And ONCE Wholeheartly, chooses to Accept the Lords Gifts...does so Once and Forever.

The Beauty of The Lords Gift and the mans Heartful Acceptance IS;
The mans KEEPING of the Lords Gift is not dependent UPON the man himself....but rather is fully KEPT for the man, By and Through the Indwelling Power of The Spirit of God.

God Bless,
Taken

You make it complex and I sometimes do the same thing. Ultimately it may be complex, but we do not have to understand all of the details of that which is complex in God in order to please Him and to serve Him. Jesus explains simply what we need to do:

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matt 11:28-30

There are a lot of details that may written between the lines and that are even written elsewhere in the scriptures, but the above verses or some others that I could mention or that you could mention give us all that we need... if our hearts are in the right place...

Another one is this:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

If we make it complicated and insist that a person understand it all as I understand it or as you understand it, does that make it necessary for them to understand it? Do you understand my point?

I have gone through some of these details with you and with others here previously, but it comes back to God increasing a person... or not. I cannot do it and neither can you. Insisting against a person who either does not understand or who understands it differently will not change him unless God is in it. Even if our view on a point is correct, only God can change a person on it and even He is limited by the person. God gave each of the choice to choose our own way instead of His.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

When and if you need to understand anyone, will not God give you the understanding? I really am working to be on your side so long as you are working to always be on God's side, for should that not always be our goals, yours and mine?

You are saying that we are unable to understand each other unless God gives us that gift.
That sounds a little far fetched to me.
Maybe there's something missing in your message or maybe only people in your language cue can understand it.
I would hardly say the Holy Spirit is with you and not me.
Maybe an effort on your behalf needs to be made to speak a simpler form of English.
Afterall, the genius Isaac Azimov wrote children's bible stories and books on astronomy alike.
It shouldn't be too difficult for you if you try.
Sounds like you don't want to try.

 

[LC627]

people in your language cue can understand it.

Lol, I have a hard time understanding it too at times.

 

[amadeus]

You are saying that we are unable to understand each other unless God gives us that gift.
That sounds a little far fetched to me.
Maybe there's something missing in your message or maybe only people in your language cue can understand it.
I would hardly say the Holy Spirit is with you and not me.
Maybe an effort on your behalf needs to be made to speak a simpler form of English.
Afterall, the genius Isaac Azimov wrote children's bible stories and books on astronomy alike.
It shouldn't be too difficult for you if you try.
Sounds like you don't want to try.

Even two people with the Holy Spirit in them may disagree on some things about God and the things of God as I understand it. If you don't agree with me on that point, there's not much use in me saying more.

As to my English being hard to understand, I do not believe that is the problem here at all. I never had trouble communicating with my children or my grandchildren and now with my one great-grandson. The problem begins when after coming to God we don't move in precisely the same direction at the same speed. So then often time we will have learned two different languages and each of us only speaks and understands his own.

No, I don't want to try if it means getting into this business of OSAS again. You want to convince that I am wrong. I have no interest in trying to convince you of anything that God has not put in my heart. If you believe what you do and you are comfortable in that, what is the problem? If there is one, is God unable to handle it?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Even two people with the Holy Spirit in them may disagree on some things about God and the things of God as I understand it. If you don't agree with me on that point, there's not much use in me saying more.

As to my English being hard to understand, I do not believe that is the problem here at all. I never had trouble communicating with my children or my grandchildren and now with my one great-grandson. The problem begins when after coming to God we don't move in precisely the same direction at the same speed. So then often time we will have learned two different languages and each of us only speaks and understands his own.

No, I don't want to try if it means getting into this business of OSAS again. You want to convince that I am wrong. I have no interest in trying to convince you of anything that God has not put in my heart. If you believe what you do and you are comfortable in that, what is the problem? If there is one, is God unable to handle it?

I've had my say.
The day you die, where will you be?
That's the question.
Do you know or not?