Eternal Security

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1stCenturyLady

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Please quote me where I accused Christians of bestiality.

#300 YOU: "Messianics are forced to separate from Christians because Christians refuse to obey several key commandments."

#306 ME: "You are speaking of the Sabbath. What other "key" commandments are you referring to? Are they the laws concerning meats?"

#311 YOU: "Yes, Sabbath is one. Others are the holy Feast Days that have NOT been fulfilled, the dietary laws, and any other command found in Torah that can still be obeyed like not destroying one's beard, not printing marks on the body, wearing tzit tziyot, not committing bestiality, etc.
 

1stCenturyLady

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The signs change with each covenant. There are also seals and they too change with each covenant.

With your above statement you're comparing SIGNS with the COMMANDMENTS.
Signs change, but the commandments of God DO NOT.

Keeping the Sabbath is a commandment.

Correct, signs change with each covenant. The Ten Commandments IS a covenant. Within it at the center lies the sign.

Exodus 34:28
Exodus 31:13
Leviticus 23 are all fulfilled in Christ. Note the first holy convocation.
 

Enoch111

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Gee Enoch, don't you think everyone here believes this?
Actually there are quite a few here, and on other forums, who deny the deity of Christ. Some even go so far as to say He is "a god", as though there are others gods floating around. The only other gods are demons, who are worshiped as idols throughout the pagan world, and who do exercise demonic powers.
I would like to ask you however, WHERE does Jesus specifically say He is God?
Several places but let's focus on one passage which I have not referred to before:

JOHN 14
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Could you, or I, or any other person make this claim?

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Could you, or I, or any other person make this claim?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
Could you, or I, or any other person make this claim?

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Could you, or I, or any other person make this claim?

In addition to this Jesus called Himself "I AM" in John 8. "I AM" (or I AM THAT I AM) is the personal name of the Almighty God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. See Exodus 3.
 
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Nancy

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Yes. They primarily try to persuade people that Yeshua is not the Messiah based on how they understand Messianic prophecies.
Yes, they teach that the "suffering servant" scriptures in Isaiah are speaking of "Israel". They only see Jesus coming as a mighty King of Kings (which He will, as script. tells) They are blinded until God removes the blinders in His time. "Pray for the peace of Jerusulum"!!
 

Jane_Doe22

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John 6:44 indeed has everything to do with our discussion. Without the drawing or prodding of God the publican will NEVER have cried out: “have mercy on this sinner!” This is the reason God manifested Himself to become man (second Adam) to undo the work of Satan, and to go to the cross to free man of sins.

If God does not intervene in the lives of mankind, all will end up in hell, no exceptions! But in His love, mercy, and grace, still He wanted to have a miserable group of people who are by nature sinners, but as I’ve already stated, God had to pay a tremendous price by sending His only Son to die on the cross. What an Awesome God!!!.

With this type of love, mercy, grace and sacrifice, don’t you think He is sovereign to save those He wishes to elect to salvation before the foundation of the world, and also seen in the story of Jacob and Esau?



Based on nothing??? Why cry out to Him??? What an audacity thing to say!!! You show no respect for the God who created you, loved you, and saved you (if you are His at all! FYI, there is no Scripture that stipulates God chooses people to go to hell. Man go to hell because they are sinners....The wages of sin is death! The unsaved go to hell because of their sins and NOT because they were chosen to stand for the fires of hell.



Firstly, let’s get it straight. I didn’t say I said it. Secondly, it was God who said it. Big
difference.



Without the drawing of God and I repeat, without the drawing of God IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO BECOME SAVED!



Not quite at all. Mankind is headed for the slaughter house. The principle thing to do then is to cry out for mercy!

For example...

Here is a king who sent out an edict (any edict). His subjects did not agree and rebelled. Guess what? The king put the whole lot in the dungeon to await the guillotine. Soon after, he hears cries of “mercy, have mercy O king!

The king with great love and compassion for his subjects went to the dungeon and started to choose a person here and another there, and after selecting a few told the guards to set free the few.

In this example, think of the king as portraying God and the rebels as sinners!

To God Be The Glory
Can you provide me a scripture quote that talks about your belief in a God that is so full of hated he created a bunch of people just to send them to Hell? I want to read the verses of scripture that talks your belief there.
 
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Taken

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What I find sad is that it is preached that place your faith in Jesus and you will be saved. People do that then they are taught to go through hoops to maintain it.

Agree!

However the TRUTH is Lord Maintains a mans Conversion via His Indwelling Power.

The church brings in sinners then condemns them when they sin whilst being in the church.

Gods Words position IS, Sin is:
Violation of the Law.
...That was given Moses, Hebrews, 12Tribes, Jews.
And
Disbelief in God.
...Which applies to every natural born person, Jew or Gentile.

Further, Gods Word, Sin is:
... per the Law...
1) Against God AND other men.
2) per one NOT under the Law ONLY Against God, for Disbelief.

Jesus fulfilled the Law.
Freewilled men can believe that OR NOT.

Men who are Jews who believe the law was Fulfilled And accept Jesus .... Are Redeemed from being able To "be accounted" as committing a Sin against another man.

Men who are Gentile's never having been subject to the law, Whose Sin was Disbelief and have become Converted...CAN NEVER AGAIN Sin Against God. Their Sin has been Forgiven, Covered with Gods Indwelling Light/ Holy Spirt, and remembered no more.

By and Through and Because of the Lords Power...that man can Sin no more.

Trespass Against other men? Yes. Gentile's could always do that and it was Not a Sin unto them, because they were Not SUBJECT TO THE LAW.

Scripture provides the Remedy when one man Trespasses against another man. And yes it does include forgiveness BETWEEN men, as well as reparations....and the "Repercussions"? <----
Examples;
Tarnished reputation, jail time, loss of being trustworthy, labeled a murderer, cheat, thief, etc.
Is the burden that person has to bear.
( much Scriptural teaching is devoted to becoming Wise and learning How to avoid the repercussions of Trespassing between men)
Sometimes Trespasses are not avoidable. (We do not know all things and sometimes we, without intent do Trespass against others). The same remedy prevails and a Converted man has the Lord to comfort him, Through the repercussions.

It's about getting people through the front door yet leaving the back door open.

I see it more as teaching there IS a Back door for a Converted Man, and mankind has the Power to boot them to the Curb...which Is False.

A simple example being. A person came to our church, they had been to another and they smoked.
They came to Jesus, then a few months later were told "If you really love Jesus then you would not smoke"

A man calling on Jesus to confess Belief, and receive Forgiveness, has nothing to do with Smoking....and Everthing to do with them Being FORGIVEN for their disbelief...

Once a man becomes Converted, He Sins no more. 1 John 3:9

Most Christian Churches Teach what they were taugh from the historical Catholic teaching...that Gods Forgiveness of Sin, Is CONDITIONAL and dependent upon the man to maintain....LEARNED from What applied to Jews under the Law....as They (Jews) continually historically (and many TODAY) via their Law repeatedly ask for forgiveness of Sin.....

It really set them back.

I believe it would. And I believe it is totally confusing to teach Forgiveness and Conversion By and Through Christ the Lord....
But oops not really.

This is not to advocate poor behavior After Conversion....there is much more that IS taught a man Can DO after Conversion.

However a mans "reasonable service" is to be Found Converted, on the day the Lord commences Collecting unto Himself, His People. Rom 12:1

God Bless,
Taken
 
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gadar perets

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#300 YOU: "Messianics are forced to separate from Christians because Christians refuse to obey several key commandments."

#306 ME: "You are speaking of the Sabbath. What other "key" commandments are you referring to? Are they the laws concerning meats?"

#311 YOU: "Yes, Sabbath is one. Others are the holy Feast Days that have NOT been fulfilled, the dietary laws, and any other command found in Torah that can still be obeyed like not destroying one's beard, not printing marks on the body, wearing tzit tziyot, not committing bestiality, etc.
I already explained in another post that I was simply listing commandments that should still be kept. However, since you have pushed this several times, let me ask you this. Do Christians teach the law is abolished or that they no longer need to obey the "Mosaic law"? Yes. Therefore, since bestiality is forbidden by Moses, but not forbidden in the NT, are they not teaching that the command against bestiality no longer needs to be kept?
 

Stranger

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I already explained in another post that I was simply listing commandments that should still be kept. However, since you have pushed this several times, let me ask you this. Do Christians teach the law is abolished or that they no longer need to obey the "Mosaic law"? Yes. Therefore, since bestiality is forbidden by Moses, but not forbidden in the NT, are they not teaching that the command against bestiality no longer needs to be kept?

How stupid.

Stranger
 

gadar perets

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How stupid.

Stranger
Why? If the Mosaic law no longer needs to be kept, then why do Christians still need to obey certain Mosaic laws? The fact is, the Mosaic law, which is the Law of YHWH, is still valid unless it was fulfilled by Yeshua such as animal sacrifices. That is why we are still commanded to obey many of them in the NT. What is stupid is the Christian belief that because a particular law is not reiterated in the NT, then that means it no longer applies.
 
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Stranger

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Why? If the Mosaic law no longer needs to be kept, then why do Christians still need to obey certain Mosaic laws? The fact is, the Mosaic law, which is the Law of YHWH, is still valid unless it was fulfilled by Yeshua such as animal sacrifices. That is why we are still commanded to obey many of them in the NT. What is stupid is the Christian belief that because a particular law is not reiterated in the NT, then that means it no longer applies.

They don't. Meaning they no more walk with God in accordance to the Law.

The Law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. His sacrifice put an end to any other sacrifice.

The Law, period, no longer applies to the Christian. Whether it is 'reiterated' or not. The Christian does not walk with God in accordance with the Law.

Now, why did you ignore my other posts?

Stranger
 

gadar perets

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They don't. Meaning they no more walk with God in accordance to the Law.

The Law was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. His sacrifice put an end to any other sacrifice.

The Law, period, no longer applies to the Christian. Whether it is 'reiterated' or not. The Christian does not walk with God in accordance with the Law.
Too bad Paul, John and James are no longer around so you could teach them what you are trying to teach me. Paul said faith establishes the law (Romans 3:31). John said sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). James said if we kill as per the 6th of the Ten, then we transgress the law (James 2:11). But they don't matter because Stranger says the law no longer applies to Christians. Yeah, right.

Now, why did you ignore my other posts?

Stranger
What # posts did I ignore? I thought I answered them all.
 

gadar perets

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No I am not going back to the Law. I do not try and obey the Ten Commandments. I try to walk in the Spirit as a Christian.
When you obey nine of the Ten Commandments, then you have succeeded in walking in the Spirit. When you break the 4th, you have failed to walk in the Spirit.

If you feel you have to obey the Law, then you are under the Law. Of course to disobey the Law is sin. But sin now is more than disobeying the Law. Anything you do that is not of faith is sin, whether you find it in the Law or not.
Yes, sin is more than disobeying the Law. However, disobeying the Law is still sin. It is a lack of faith to disobey YHWH's commandment.

You received Jesus Christ as your Saviour. That means you are Christian. I received Jesus Christ as my Saviour also, which means I am Christian.
So, who told you that you are not Christian or what made you turn away from Christianity? Because whether you like it or not, you are Christian.

Stranger
Christianity today is not the same Christianity as in the first century. It is riddled with false teachings which is why we have so many denominations. To be a Christian today means you must be a trinitarian who does not keep the Sabbath or Feast Days holy and who is free to eat swine's flesh, mice, maggots, etc., if that is their preference. If I call myself a Christian, then I am associating myself with those false teachings. No, I am not a Christian, but I am a follower of Christ/Messiah.
 

gadar perets

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Your problem is you reject the Trinity.

Stranger
No, it is not a problem, but a blessing to not have to believe a man made doctrine not found in Scripture. The Scriptures have become so clear to me now that I don't look at them through a trinitarian filter.
 

gadar perets

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What do you mean Christianity is not the door to the Kingdom. Once you come to Christ, you are part of Christianity. If you refuse to identify with Christians then you refuse to identify with the Saviour Jesus Christ.

Stranger
Once I come to Christ/Messiah I am part of the Body of Messiah. I need not be a Christian. Identifying with Christianity is NOT the same as identifying with Christ. Christ represents truth and Christianity does not. If they did, there would not be the plethora of denominations as we see today, each teaching differing doctrines. That is not how the early church was.
 

Nancy

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@gadar perets said:
Most people who reject the Sabbath and Law saying they are fulfilled in Messiah and therefore abolished will readily admit that they are not free to steal, dishonor parents, commit adultery, covet, etc. They will endeavor to keep from transgressing the other nine commandments, yet they refuse to keep the fourth commandment. Most Sabbath opponents will not: commit bestiality; get tattooed; have relations with close relatives; use unjust weights and measures; charge what they consider usury; etc. So when they say they are "free from the law", or "not under the law", etc., they are really trying to justify their supposed freedom from Sabbath-keeping in a most inconsistent manner. The reality is, we must obey our Heavenly Father's commandments if they are among the laws written on our hearts as part of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8-10).

There were many commands from Jesus; "repent", Be baptized, love your enemies, don't judge..." But when it comes to the big 10, He chiseled them down to 2: Jesus was asked: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments," (Matt 22:36-40, Amp). So, if you Love the Lord with all of yourself, and love your neighbor as yourself, you will not "have any other Gods before Me" you will not, "covet your neighbors wife" you will not bear false witness, or steal..."
We have God's laws written on the lining of our hearts so we will gladly and cheerfully live out His will, from our hearts, not some law engraved in stone. If we do not have The Holy Spirit in us then, we are not His and will never desire to do His will. JMO.
 

gadar perets

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So, if you Love the Lord with all of yourself, and love your neighbor as yourself, you will not "have any other Gods before Me" you will not, "covet your neighbors wife" you will not bear false witness, or steal..."
We have God's laws written on the lining of our hearts so we will gladly and cheerfully live out His will, from our hearts, not some law engraved in stone. If we do not have The Holy Spirit in us then, we are not His and will never desire to do His will. JMO.
I agree. However, to continue your statement, "you will not "have any other Gods before Me" you will not, "covet your neighbors wife" you will not bear false witness, or steal or break the Sabbath, or ..."
 

1stCenturyLady

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I already explained in another post that I was simply listing commandments that should still be kept. However, since you have pushed this several times, let me ask you this. Do Christians teach the law is abolished or that they no longer need to obey the "Mosaic law"? Yes. Therefore, since bestiality is forbidden by Moses, but not forbidden in the NT, are they not teaching that the command against bestiality no longer needs to be kept?

You know nothing about the gospel of Jesus Christ do you? Only Moses and the law. Well let me explain simply:

Walking in the Spirit does NOT lead a Christian into bestiality. We are born again with a new nature, and it is not in our nature to sin. Do you honestly need laws to be spelled out for you to be righteous? Do you crave animals and need a law to tell you it is disgusting?

Many people have never been baptized in the Spirit and need laws because they love darkness. Christians don't.

Read 1 John chapter 3. Christians don't sin. So if you don't commit willful sin, you don't need a law to show you sin you wouldn't want to commit.

Do Messianics just add Jesus to the Old Covenant and the Mosaic law for a ticket into heaven, but don't care about learning anything about the New Covenant? You appear to be very naive on the subject, especially WHY we are no longer under the law.

Listen to what Paul says about that. Galatians 5:4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
 
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Jun2u

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This is semantics. We will all appear before a tribunal...either the Bema or the GWT...to receive for what we have done. After this life.

I beg to differ. The Bema and the Great White Throne are two different thrones. The Bema is Pilate’s throne room where Jesus stood and was judged by Pilate. While the GWT is Jesus’ throne where He and the believers will judge the nations of the world.

There is no event that supposedly believers will receive a reward. Luke 18:28-30 states:
28) Then Peter said, Lo, we have left aii, and followed thee,
29) And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wifek, or children, for the kingdom of God’s sake,
30) Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Don’t rely on the work of others especially when you don’t check whether their work is faithful to the Word of God or not.

To God Be The Glory