OVERCOMING

[amadeus]

The glass darkly was the period before the NT cannon was complete. Tongues, prophecy, and word of knowledge were inferior but now we see face to face. Is the bible perfect? Then perfection has come.

The Bible may contain perfection, but perfection has not come to any person until it is perfect and complete in him.

Two people with the Holy Spirit still disagree at times because one or both them has not attained yet that "face to face" vision.

 

[amadeus]

But if Jesus is not God, we worship an idol. Only God should be worshiped.

Should we be worshipping Jesus the man or the One God? The One God was and is certainly IN Jesus, but is He not also working to be always IN you and IN me also? The difference between Jesus and us is the work in him is already finished while ours is not yet completed:

"I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." John 17:4

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

When the One God is IN us with all of the work in us finished, [if it ever is] should others worship us? I would think not. Jesus is the mediator by which means we in our incompleteness and remaining filth may have access to God.

I have tried to tell you what I believe about Jesus. You believe I am wrong but instead of leaving it there and moving on you insist on continuing to push as if your pushing would change where I am. You can only do that if and when God decides to use you for that purpose.

 

[Jay Ross]

I have tried to tell you what I believe about Jesus. You believe I am wrong but instead of leaving it there and moving on you insist on continuing to push as if your pushing would change where I am. You can only do that if and when God decides to use you for that purpose.

Amadeus, those who push a particular "belief system" do so to bolster their own faith, because if they can force someone else into to believing what it is that they push, then they too can have confidence in that belief system. The more we push back, the more determined they become in attempting to prove that their belief system is okay for them.

You can tell a person once. You can tell them again a second time, but after they will not listen a third time, then we should leave them and move on and let them believe in their delusions and leave it up to God to continue the process of drawing them to himself, thanking God that He does not leave behind any that are willing to whole heartedly believe in Him no matter how stubborn they or we become.

Shalom

PS: - This does not happen usually overnight.

 

[Dave L]

Should we be worshipping Jesus the man or the One God? The One God was and is certainly IN Jesus, but is He not also working to be always IN you and IN me also? The difference between Jesus and us is the work in him is already finished while ours is not yet completed:

"I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." John 17:4

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

When the One God is IN us with all of the work in us finished, [if it ever is] should others worship us? I would think not. Jesus is the mediator by which means we in our incompleteness and remaining filth may have access to God.

I have tried to tell you what I believe about Jesus. You believe I am wrong but instead of leaving it there and moving on you insist on continuing to push as if your pushing would change where I am. You can only do that if and when God decides to use you for that purpose.

Jesus the man is the triune God in person, with a fully human nature and a fully divine nature. Any view short of this fails to conform to scripture.

So you are not worshiping the man. His person IS God, not a human person.

 

[bbyrd009]

Should we be worshipping Jesus the man or the One God? The One God was and is certainly IN Jesus, but is He not also working to be always IN you and IN me also? The difference between Jesus and us is the work in him is already finished while ours is not yet completed:

"I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." John 17:4

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

When the One God is IN us with all of the work in us finished, [if it ever is] should others worship us? I would think not. Jesus is the mediator by which means we in our incompleteness and remaining filth may have access to God.

I have tried to tell you what I believe about Jesus. You believe I am wrong but instead of leaving it there and moving on you insist on continuing to push as if your pushing would change where I am. You can only do that if and when God decides to use you for that purpose.

nice imo, ty

 

[amadeus]

Amadeus, those who push a particular "belief system" do so to bolster their own faith, because if they can force someone else into to believing what it is that they push, then they too can have confidence in that belief system. The more we push back, the more determined they become in attempting to prove that their belief system is okay for them.

I've been there and done that myself... that is to push so hard as if by doing so the person would yield to me. Of course therein as you say lies the trouble with expecting anyone to voluntarily yield to us. No one will be converted to another way of walking by arm twisting. Nevertheless sometimes we get our hopes up and keep up the pressure. Sometimes God wants us to do that so that we will learn a lesson, but likely very often it is our own spirit trying to rule the roost again. Surrender is the answer... not to another man, but to God.

You can tell a person once. You can tell them again a second time, but after they will not listen a third time, then we should leave them and move on and let them believe in their delusions and leave it up to God to continue the process of drawing them to himself, thanking God that He does not leave behind any that are willing to whole heartedly believe in Him no matter how stubborn they or we become.

Amen! Give God the glory!

Shalom

PS: - This does not happen usually overnight.[/QUOTE]

 

[Enoch111]

The One God was and is certainly IN Jesus...

That statement would make Jesus less than God. But the Bible says that He is true God, thus the God-Man -- fully divine and also fully human yet without sin.

 

[amadeus]

That statement would make Jesus less than God. But the Bible says that He is true God, thus the God-Man -- fully divine and also fully human yet without sin.

So let it be for you what you see, but don't presume. You won't find the term God-Man in the scriptures.

 

[Enoch111]

So let it be for you what you see, but don't presume.

I have not presumed anything. The Bible is full of verses and passages showing us that Jesus is God, and a couple where God the Father calls the Jesus the Son "God" (Psalm 45:6,7 & Hebrews 1:8,9)

You won't find the term God-Man in the scriptures.

Maybe not. But it is accurate. There are many others terms not found in the Scriptures which help people to understand what is revealed.

 

[amadeus]

I have not presumed anything. The Bible is full of verses and passages showing us that Jesus is God, and a couple where God the Father calls the Jesus the Son "God" (Psalm 45:6,7 & Hebrews 1:8,9)


Maybe not. But it is accurate. There are many others terms not found in the Scriptures which help people to understand what is revealed.

Believe me, I am familiar with the verses on each side of this question. Too many people simply go with the majority or with their leaders or with their families. That is NOT the way to the truth. But this thread is about overcoming rather the nature of God so I will not pursue it further here. I have posted my views here on other threads if people wish to pursue the question... or even start another thread on it. Only rarely has anyone bothered to discuss the verses supporting why I believe what I believe but they like you presume they are correct and that I am wrong. Well as we both know, God is right.

 

[Nancy]

Should we be worshipping Jesus the man or the One God? The One God was and is certainly IN Jesus, but is He not also working to be always IN you and IN me also? The difference between Jesus and us is the work in him is already finished while ours is not yet completed:

"I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." John 17:4

"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." John 19:30

When the One God is IN us with all of the work in us finished, [if it ever is] should others worship us? I would think not. Jesus is the mediator by which means we in our incompleteness and remaining filth may have access to God.

I have tried to tell you what I believe about Jesus. You believe I am wrong but instead of leaving it there and moving on you insist on continuing to push as if your pushing would change where I am. You can only do that if and when God decides to use you for that purpose.

Very well put @amadeus ♥

 

[Nancy]

Surrender is the answer... not to another man, but to God.

Amen brother, for sure!

 

[bbyrd009]

Maybe not. But it is accurate.

lol.

what's wrong with "God is the head of Christ" i gotta wonder

There are many others terms not found in the Scriptures which help people to understand what is revealed.

hmm, imo there are many found in Scripture that you cannot see yet, apparently

i'd Quote them but you are already fam i'm sure
they'll still be there when you can i guess

 

[Enoch111]

what's wrong with "God is the head of Christ" i gotta wonder

Nothing. That is exactly what the Bible says. But what does it mean? "Head" is a metaphor for authority. Which means that even though each of the divine Persons within the Godhead is fully God, there is a hierarchy of authority within the Godhead, with the Father as the Head, the Son under His authority, and the Holy Spirit under the authority of the Father and the Son.

At the same time, the Father has made the Son the Creator, the Savior, the Judge, and the King over all humanity. He has delegated all His authority to the Son (Mt 28:18). And a time will come when the Son will hand back everything to the Father, so that God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:28).

All this is beyond human comprehension, but since it is in Scripture, it must be accepted as God's truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

Nothing. That is exactly what the Bible says. But what does it mean? "Head" is a metaphor for authority. Which means that even though each of the divine Persons within the Godhead is fully God, there is a hierarchy of authority within the Godhead, with the Father as the Head, the Son under His authority, and the Holy Spirit under the authority of the Father and the Son.

At the same time, the Father has made the Son the Creator, the Savior, the Judge, and the King over all humanity. He has delegated all His authority to the Son (Mt 28:18). And a time will come when the Son will hand back everything to the Father, so that God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:28).

All this is beyond human comprehension, but since it is in Scripture, it must be accepted as God's truth.

ah well ty and no offense but i'm not a buyer

 

[Ac28]

Revelations is addressed to both Israel and the Church.

The seven churches were churches that existed then but because of their characteristics they are used to also refer to the seven Church Ages.

Indeed a lot of Revelations deals with Israel. But, it also deals with the world as a whole whole. In example, it talks about mountains disappearing, sea life dying, etc.

Those 7 "churches" were Jewish synagogues. All synagogues had an "Angel of the Synagogue", which was a position held by a Jewish overseer.

"Besides these there was 'the public minister of the synagogue,' who prayed publicly, and took care about the reading of the law, and sometimes preached, if there were not some other to discharge this office. This person was called the angel of the Synagogue, and the Chazan or bishop of the congregation. The Aruch gives the reason of the name: "The Chazan (saith he) is the angel of the assembly (or the public minister), and the Targum renders...one that oversees; for it is incumbent on him to oversee how the reader reads, and whom he may call out to read in the law." The public minister of the synagogue himself read not the law publicly; but, every sabbath, he called out seven of the synagogue (on other days, fewer) whom he judged fit to read. He stood by him that read, with great care observing that he read nothing either falsely or improperly; and calling him back and correcting him if he had failed in any thing. And hence he was called..overseer."

In Revelation 1:20 , 2:1, 8,12, 3:1,7,14, there is mention of these Angels of the synagogues, and this proves they are not Gentile "churches".

The only Christian "Church" in existence today, and since 64AD, is the Church which is Christ's actual Body ( Ephesians 5:30 , "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." KJV), where Christ is the Head ( Ephesians 4:15 , Colossians 1:18 , Colossians 2:19 ) and is found ONLY in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. This church will be long gone, since it's resurrection will be at the end of this 2000 year period, in the "Appearing" (not the Rapture!), taking us to the Heavenly Places, where Christ sits at the right hand of God, Ephesians 1:20 (where Christ ascended to), Ephesians 2:6 (where we will be resurrected to - same place), in about 2064. Since Israel hasn't existed as a nation, in God's eyes, since 64AD, and since the Church will be in Heaven before Israel is back on the scene, it is IMPOSSIBLE that there is ANY association between today's 100% Gentile Church and Israel.

Israel is NOT the Church, the Church is NOT Israel, and there is a ZERO chance that the present day Gentile Church will have ANY PART in the Day of the Lord (the Millennium), or anything else that takes place in the Book of Revelation. Revelation is ALL ISRAEL!!.

 

[Ac28]

I am of the opion that all references to overcoming is to be applied to Israel and not the Body of Christ.


The churches in Revelation are churches in the future. The book of Revelation concerns Israel.

2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

The tree of life will be found in the new Jerusalem, the future eartly kingdom of Israel.

21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

The body of Christ has a future in the heavenly places not the earthly.

1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

It is for Israel to reign over the nations on earth.

2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: Revelation 2:26

5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Revelation 5:10

The book of life is for Israel.

3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3:5

Revelation 21:27 refers once again to the new Jerusalem on earth.

21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:27

3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. Revelation 3:12

To him that overcometh will be granted to sit on the throne.

3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Revelation 3:21

To sit on the throne was allocated to the Jews.

19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

He that overcometh shall obtain the inheritance.

21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:7

Israel will inherit the kingdom.

25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

Israel will overcome.

5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?1 John 5:5

I agree with most everything you said. You are a voice of truth crying in the wilderness of error-filled tradition-alism. A rarity on this and ALL other Christian forums. Good job!!!

The only association I see between Israel and the Gentiles is Jesus Christ. In EVERY POSSIBLE case, from Gen 12 to the present, God has treated Israel 100% different than He has treated the Gentiles.

For 2000 years, from Gen 12 through the end of Acts, EVERYTHING was about Israel. Israel had EVERYTHING from God and the Gentiles had nothing of their own. Gentiles were filthy dogs. They did get to partake of a few of Israel's Blessings from Acts 10 through Acts 28, but these were only a pittance of what Israel had, Romans 9:4 , Ephesians 2:11-12 . During that 2000 years, God was calling out Israel ONLY to eventually occupy the New Earth and the New Jerusalem.

Then, the tables turned 180 degrees, Israel ceased to be God's people, Hosea 1:9 . Without Israel present today, in God's eyes, the Gentiles are now the head and Israel is the tail. Any Jew today that wants salvation must, essentially, become a Gentile and believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The ONLY scripture that applies directly to us Gentiles today, as far as (1) Our Calling, (2) The Hope of our Calling, (3) the Blessings we now have, (4) Our future, and (5) the rules and direction concerning these things, are Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, Those are the ONLY books in the Bible where any group is said to have a Hope of going to Heaven. During this 2000 year, all-Gentile period God's main purpose is to call out the Gentiles to occupy Heavenly Places, the place Far Above the created starry Heavens, where Christ ascended to and now sits at the right hand of God, Ephesians 1:20 . In Ephesians 2:6 , we find that we Gentiles will be in the same place and we will also be seated wiith Christ

 

[CoreIssue]

Those 7 "churches" were Jewish synagogues. All synagogues had an "Angel of the Synagogue", which was a position held by a Jewish overseer.

Read the opening to each. It says church.

They were both Jewish and gentile. But they were not Judaism.

 

[Enoch111]

The ONLY scripture that applies directly to us Gentiles today, as far as (1) Our Calling, (2) The Hope of our Calling, (3) the Blessings we now have, (4) Our future, and (5) the rules and direction concerning these things, are Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles...

Just more Hyper-Dispensational nonsense.

 

[brakelite]

Nothing. That is exactly what the Bible says. But what does it mean? "Head" is a metaphor for authority. Which means that even though each of the divine Persons within the Godhead is fully God, there is a hierarchy of authority within the Godhead, with the Father as the Head, the Son under His authority, and the Holy Spirit under the authority of the Father and the Son.

At the same time, the Father has made the Son the Creator, the Savior, the Judge, and the King over all humanity. He has delegated all His authority to the Son (Mt 28:18). And a time will come when the Son will hand back everything to the Father, so that God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:28).

All this is beyond human comprehension, but since it is in Scripture, it must be accepted as God's truth.

All of which flies in the face of the common creeds that purportedly describe the Godhead. What you have accurately related makes any traditional orthodox trinity formula redundant. "MY Father is greater than I " wasn't simply a human expression...it was the Son of God confessing His dependency upon HIs Father. "My Father and your Father; My God and your God" was also the Son speaking, not just a man. The Father is Jesus's God? Yes! Cannot understand how trinitarians deal with that. So does that mean Jesus isn't God? No, of course He is God, how can the Son of God not inherit His Father's nature?
Which is why I prefer the Biblical name, Godhead, to describe deity. Godhead circumvents the need for formulas and humans daring to encroach upon the sacred with their tainted minds.