Sure. Note: I am NOT a Calvinist. In fact, there is not a single theology (Christian or non) that I am more opposed to.
My answer: the idea of total depravity is anti-Biblical before and after Christ's coming.
The Five Points of Calvinism
- Thread starter Dave L
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Please point out the problems you have with it. I don't agree with the 4th and 5th point, but think it is true to scripture in the first 3 points.
Dave, please stop being an ass. I have made no comments about the 5 points of Calvinism not have I denounced them. What I have commented on is your obnoxious behaviours, which has nothing to do with the comments on the topic matter for the thread.
What I did say was that I was happy to learn from you if you presented the evidence to support your theories on the subject matter, as it seemed to me that you already have done the research, as I did not have the time to spend to do the research necessary to evaluate the topic of this thread.
So clearly the ball is in your court so to speak to be the one to present your research and conclusions on this topic.
Actually just one passage of Scripture proves them all wrong.
JOHN 3
NO UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
NO LIMITED ATONEMENT
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
NO IRRESISTIBLE GRACE
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
NO TOTAL DEPRAVITY
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
As to the so-called perseverance of the saints, it is actually the power of God and the perfection of His salvation.
This does not refute the 5 points. It only shows a misunderstanding of what they say.
I posted the 5 points without comment. Take them or leave them. And foul language is not becoming of a "Christian".
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Dave if you will not be a provider of Good and sound research, then why cause others to become exasperated at your posting methodologies. You say foul language is not becoming of a Christian, however, I would suggest posting to unsettle a person by your posting style is more of a sin than a person expressing their frustration with you because you are talking at the person rather than entering into a conversation with the said person by actually reading their posts and responding accordingly.
The ball Dave is in your court and not in mine.
Is there not a scripture which tells Christ's actual disciples not to exasperated others? It seems to me that you love exasperating others and getting your rocks off doing so.
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
So there is no change in a person after "regeneration"? They just go on living their totally depraved life, but with the assurance of salvation?
I do not believe in Calvinism or OSAS. Rather, I believe that God loves all men and invites all men to come unto Him. Each person has the choice to accept or reject His gift. This coming to Christ is not a once-and-done thing, but a lifelong+ journey of ever becoming more like Him.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I am not Calvinist, but before I can declare them a false doctrine, I need this question answered by someone.
Ephesians 2 relates the total depravity to the old nature. John's First Epistle shows there are definite expectations as to the evidence of new life in Christ.
How can I know that I have, in fact, accepted His gracious gift? John's First Epistle tells me that I can indeed know.
I think every person calling themselves a Christian should be familiar with Calvinism. Since it was the backbone of the Reformation. If you disagree with any of it, at least you now understand what the 5 points are. And can discuss them intelligently with any who might inquire of you.
You don't have to be a Calvinist or OSAS to ask God about your salvation or read/believe John's First Epistle.
Why? How many -isms are we supposed to understand?
Was it really? Wouldn't it be rather to move closer what Jesus was and what He taught?
I read them a few minutes ago, but already I could not tell you what they are. The one thing I remember is that they seem to contain or support the OSAS way of thinking.
Here is what you said: After regeneration and being born again, do Calvinists believe we are still totally depraved until Jesus comes, or are we dead to sin and actually righteous? And I don't mean just imputed righteousness, but act righteous in our outward lives and inward thoughts? Or are we still totally depraved, sin our heads off, but are forgiven and saved?
My response is:
1. Calvinists (Reformed Christians) believe that Total Depravity means the total inability of sinners to respond to the Gospel. Therefore they postulate that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Which is totally false.
2. Calvinists believe that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the one who believes, and that we are justified by grace through faith. This is perfectly correct.
3. Calvinists believe that Christians receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which enables them to walk in the Spirit and be righteous. This too is perfectly correct.
4. However, after regeneration, Calvinists also believe that *the flesh* (the old Adamic sin nature) has not been eradicated. Therefore Christians are still capable of sinning and are not sinlessly perfect. However sin does not have dominion over the believer. Here is what they believe about sanctification as stated in their official Westminster Confession of Faith:
Chapter XIII Of Sanctification
I. They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them: the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified; and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
II. This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man;yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part; whence arises a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.
III. In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail; yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part does overcome; and so, the saints grow in grace, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
The above is perfectly in accordance with Scripture.
There is absolutely no misunderstanding. Those Scriptures should be sufficient for anyone to renounce Calvinism.
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