You change the gospel into law and make salvation by works from it. You are the savior, not God, when you strap conditions for yourself and others to meet in order to be saved.
The Five Points of Calvinism
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CoreIssue
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If you want to discuss LDS beliefs, let us move this to a different venue than a thread on Calvinism.
VictoryinJesus
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- Jan 26, 2017
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God calls all men. Some hear. Some don’t. God is the One who gives the ears. To say God calls all men and some are disobedient children is saying all are children of God some children of God choosing to reject. Yet God says a child of God is born from above and and can not refuse given a new heart, and God chooses when that birth happens. Swing it however you want ...man doesn’t get the credit, God does. It is God’s will be done, not man’s. No flesh gets the glory.
Daniel 5:20-23
[20] But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him: [21] And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will. [22] And thou his son, O Belshazzar, hast not humbled thine heart, though thou knewest all this; [23] But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven; and they have brought the vessels of his house before thee, and thou, and thy lords, thy wives, and thy concubines, have drunk wine in them; and thou hast praised the gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know: and the God in whose hand thy breath is , and whose are all thy ways, hast thou not glorified:
He (God)has brought the vessels of His house before you and you have drunk wine in them...and thou praised the temporal things including the flesh and what the flesh can do...which see not, nor hear, nor know...when instead you should have praised and glorified God(Spirit)who gives the ears and eyes to hear and see with, in whose hand thy breath is.
“..the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.”
Including the children of God whom He appoints over the Kingdom. God chooses.
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I have several times:
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they followme:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Christ is the Good Shepherd. A shepherd leads his sheep from the front and they voluntarily follow Him out of love. This is different than a sheep herder who forcefully drives his sheep from the back with dogs and other tools.
Christ leads his sheep from the front and those disciples voluntarily follow Him out of love. It is not out of force. As long as a person choose to follow Christ, they will be saved and not lost.
This is all about love and a person voluntarily following Christ. It is a passage fundamentally opposed to Calvinism.
Those verses say that Christ keeps His sheep. His wayward erring sheep do not keep themselves; it is the power of the Shepherd that keeps them.
How does a shepherd keep his sheep?
Does he chain them? Or are chains unnecessary because they are voluntarily choosing to follow him?
In other words:
Is free will removed? Or does free will still exist and they are voluntarily choosing to follow him?
This is what it says; the passage you quoted: "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand."
The sheep belong to Christ. He keeps them. No one can remove them from His hand or His Father's hand.
I don't know where you get that so called free will does this.
This doesn't answer my question.
How does a shepherd keep his sheep?
Does he chain them? Or are chains unnecessary because they are voluntarily choosing to follow him?
In other words:
Is free will removed? Or does free will still exist and they are voluntarily choosing to follow him?
Waiting on him
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You do not seem to see that wayward sheep need to be led; they are not consulted by the Shepherd Who owns them to find out their opinions; they are His already; they are bought with a price.
I do see that generations of political ideology may have blinded people from being able to understand this.
You were born into the sheepfold spiritually, right?
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Your scenario is, with respect, willful. You assume that sheep have human rights as insisted on by politicians. We are not able to communicate, I feel.
We need to look at God's Word in terms of heaven's blessings - graciously imparted - and not as human rights politically grasped...until a cold, hopeless grave.
This isn't about politics.
From where I'm standing, Calvinism is advocating that Christ drags sheep around with a chain around their neck. Rather than a sheep voluntarily follow their shepherd out of love.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
If you believe a sheep voluntarily follows their shepherd out of love, please say so.
I do feel that you - like may religious people - are applying a political mindset to God's Word, rather than recognizing that it is not we who 'call the shots', as it were, when God graciously blesses and keeps those whom Christ has bought by His blood at the Cross.
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