When to look for the rapture of the church

[Taken]

Okay, a few things here. Firstly....I'm not sure I've seen anyone convincingly proove that when the bible talks about God's 'wrath upon the earth' that it is not just talking about the coming judgement upon the sinful population.

WRATH... is ANGER
A response of ANGER, of the Lord God, is revealed in Revelations.

A man WHO believes IN GOD, IN CHRIST, does not make thee Lord God "ANGRY".

Thus a MAN Converted IN Christ, IS NOT subject to WRATH....What WRATH?
"ANY WRATH" from thee Lord God.

1 Thes 5
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath,

The Rapture of Christ's Church, IS specifically Lifting UP ABOVE the EARTH, those NOT appointed to WRATH.

Thus OTHERS ARE LEFT on Earth.
THE WHO is Left on earth is KEY INFORMATION.

All against God? No.
All against Jesus? Yes.

Jews are Gods ELECT. They are left ON earth.
They (not all, but most) BELIEVE in God, but have NOT accepted JESUS, as their Christ Messiah.

THEY ^ shall suffer the WRATH of .... WHO?
The WRATH of the Lamb of God, whom they rejected.

It is the Lamb of God, that BEGINS the ends days of Tribulation....BY OPeNING the book of Seven SEALS.

Everyone on earth...(including MANY Jews, will suffer the consequences of the Lamb OPENING the SEALS )

WHILE each SEAL is being opened, the Signs, are being manifested, ie coming to pass.

And WHILE the signs are coming to pass...
Many Jews are coming into BELIEF IN Jesus, as their Christ Messiah, and they they becoming saved.

Jews are being ministered to: BY JEWS.
Jews the Lord God SENDS to them.
144,000 Jews of every Jewish Tribe
2 Witness
Rev 11:2. 42 months
Rev 13:5. 42 months

During the Tribulation of THOSE DAYS...
None of the Jews will ESCAPE BODILY DEATH, but will specifically BE KILLED for accepting Jesus, and rejecting the Beast and False Prophet. Thus, they become SAVED.

Gods ANGER continues and His WRATH continues UPON the Earth and the Inhabitants of the EARTH, WHO REJECT Him and Christ.

UNTIL...ALL that are SEALED unto HIM, are divided, separated and THEY (the SEALED) are removed FROM the surface of the EARTH.

THEN...the GREAT Tribulation of THOSE DAYS commence, Gods WRATH...UPON the Earth itself, and UPON the People left upon the Earth.

Remember....
God is a Jealous God.
Reject Him, flock to other gods, and it is God Himself who shall Show His Anger and Power of WHO HE IS.
Remember....
Vengeance belongs to God.
God says Love Him above all else.
God says love your enemies, even whey they do you Wrong, and Persecute you.

It is WHEN non are left ON EARTH, "that", are Sealed unto HIM....that IN ADDITION to His WRATH...
God also POURS OUT on "THEM" (the unsealed, the ones who Persecuted the SEALED)....HIS Vengeance...in brief...
He is PERSECUTING those WHO persecuted those SEALED unto Him.

Rev 14
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Glory to God.
Taken

 

[Taken]

Okay, a few things here. Firstly....I'm not sure I've seen anyone convincingly proove that when the bible talks about God's 'wrath upon the earth' that it is not just talking about the coming judgement upon the sinful population.

People UPON the Earth, suffer. rejecting God, rejecting Christ, and suffer, accepting God, accepting Christ...everyday.

Those who reject, suffer LOSS of Gods blessings.
Many who accept, suffer PERSECUTION from those who reject God and Christ.

THAT is foretold and ongoing.
End days TRIBULATION, compares NONE to everyday hardships and tribulations MEN have doled out.
End days TRIBULATIONS, are ACTIONS by SUPREME POWERS above anything a man can do.

As in: damnation versus salvation. And thus, as saved people by Christ's blood, any Christian upon the earth is not going to be under any more 'wrath' or 'hardship' or 'tribulation' than we or other Christians see on a day to day basis anyway.

There you error.

Matt 24
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Remember the Days of Noah.
Great tribulation...
All "ON" Earth died.
All "ALL Lifted UP Above the Earth" were saved.

In Noah's day:
Gen 6
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 7
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Noah's day...FEW saved, being LIFTED UP.
End days.....FEW saved, being LIFTED UP.
Noah's day...End days...LIFTED UP...or
suffer Separation from thee Lord God.

Christ said, in this world we WILL have tribulation.

And there ARE tribulations. However endtime GREAT Tribulations is unparalleled.

He also said we would escape the wrath to come.

"WE" is subjective.... "WE" who are Converted IN Christ. And the "escape", is effected by NOT being "appointed" to Wrath, or "experiencing" the Wrath.

He also prayed that the Father would NOT take us out of this world.

Scripture reference?

And will address that before going further into your further comment.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Do you know what "Christian" means?

Means to WHOM, and WHEN is the meaning applicable?

It first popped up in the early church when followers of Jesus were referred to as "little christ's"...

Never heard such a term, nor agree with it.

Christ is an exclusive term TO Jesus.
The term Christ, with the suffix "IAN", is mentioned 3 Times in scripture of what MEN, (not following Christ's teachings) called MEN (Who "were" following and promoting Christ's teachings).

Obviously I find a GREAT Difference between ONLY "following" Christ's teaching....
AND one who;
"Not ONLY follows" but ALSO become "Converted IN Christ".

And No, I do NOT believe that "APPLIES to ALL MEN, who do, or have or another does or has called that man" a Christ-ian.

because their behavior, speech and desire to follow him. In the bible it is referenced as such...people who were disciples,

Yes...following. Their choice. Desire, fear, whatever, their choice.

Seems you ignored...Judas followed Jesus, then betrayed Him.
Many disciples followed Christ, then STOPPED following Him.

Jesus point blank spoke to people (disciples following Him, saying He knows IF they truly believe Him or not...0 paraphrasing John chapt 6

John 6
[65] And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[66] From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

My POINT...as already disclosed.
Calling yourself a Christian, is merely an INDICATION you follow Jesus' Teaching.

ANY man saved and born again, reveals that man IS Converted IN Christ, regardless of what he calls himself.

There ARE Messaniac Jews, follow Jesus' Teachings AND who ARE saved and born Again, and DO NOT call themselves Christians.

AND there ARE many WHO call themselves Christians WHO are following Jesus' Teachings...BUT are NOT Converted, ie saved or Born again.

members of the church, those who walked in new birth and the Holy Spirit.

^^ That is one who IS not "ONLY" following, but HAS "ALSO" Become Converted IN Christ.

And I think, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter a lick what we call 'em or how we define it,

Disagree. IF one DOES NOT KNOW, the standing of another...How would one determine IF they should consider BEING "YOKED" in a relationship with the OTHER?

Today...People "Yoke" themselves in relationships, routinely, never considering, IF the other HAS a relationship WITH God.
Following Jesus, can come and go...
Conversion is permanent.
Ever think relationships begin on one saying, I'm a Christian....and then the other finds out, they were never Converted, and no longer following,? AND WHAT then?
WHO is the HEAD above those two in a relationship? The Lord? Obviously NOT...one is not Committed to the Lord.

all that will matter is the state of a person's heart and if they have Christ in their place for their sins.

For WHOM? A man and thee Lord yes.
I find it matters to the Lord, that 2 yoked in a relationship, BOTH bien Converted matters also. And by the domestic violence and divorce rate, I can see why.

But I think getting twitchy over the name "christian" is perhaps maybe taking a bit too far.

Your opinion. I disagree.

By and large everyone who uses the term uses it in good faith.

Sure. A "FOLLOWER" is given measures of FAITH (a gift from God).
However a "FOLLOWER" who stops following, LOSES, receiving measures of FAITH (from God). And DAY to DAY, any (UNCONVERTED) man can claim, he is a christian, isn't a christian, is a christian, isn't a christian...is a believer, isn't a believer, is a believer, isn't a believer.

But ^^ THAT NOT SO, for a converted man.

Of course there are those out there who are false Christians. Through ignorance or malice. It doesn't much matter for the purpose here. If we can't use the term 'christian' to refer to those who have salvation through faith and grace,

And you can wonder if they are what you call "a false christian" or "a true Christian"

then what else do we call them?

Same as Jesus did. "Converted".

Need we specify every single time we're talking that we're only referring to the genuine? I think that is assumed, no?

You can say or not as you please. And I can believe as I observed.

Hmm, on this we disagree. I'd love to see some scriptures that tell us about a time period of mortals and immortals living it up together. Need a cup of sugar? Just pop next door, your supernatural 'forever saved' neighbour is sure to have some!

I tend to immediately think IGNORANT, when people offer their disagreement about spiritual things, with trivial words added.
That doesn't particularly get my attention to for earnest desire to understand.

So I leave that to you, to study about the 1,000 year resign of Christ Jesus on Earth, His Converted Saints with Him, and men repopulating the earth, limited to a life span of 120 years....
A hint for you. The Converted neither die, marry or reproduce.

Some people say that the people who got the upgrade in the Rapture will live 'in heaven'...or a floating NJ while the peasants will populate downstairs. I think I saw that movie. It didn't end well. But I'm not sure I've seen it in scripture anywhere.

Ridiculous nonsense, and obviously out of the mouths of unlearned people.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Trekson]

However, Revelation is apocolyptic literature, which means it was given to John in visions.

Hi Naomi, Seeing as how our differences mainly lie on our definition of Rev. I created another post in the eschatology form titled, Prophecy vs. Apocalyptic to answer this statement.

 

[Davy]

....

These two passages give us a look at the chronological layout of end time events. Basically, at Christ's return, death will be defeated and we will receive our new imperishable bodies. Because death is defeated, being the last enemy, Christ will then deliver the Kingdom to his Father. The point here is this: Christ's return doesn't start the Kingdom, which will be pretty darn good but not perfect because it's not the eternal state, but it 'ends the Kingdom'. It very clearly says that at his return...at the point where death is defeated an no more, Christ will have put every other enemy under his feet in this Kingdom, and so will hand it over to God.
A 'Millennial Kingdom' is made very difficult from this passage. And there are other verses in scripture that let us know that Jesus is even know ruling and reigning.

You forgot an important factor beginning at Christ's 2nd coming. And that is His testimony through John about the devil being locked in his pit prison for a thousand years, and death not over yet, because those of the "resurrection of damnation", i.e., the unsaved after Christ's return, will still be subject to death, a spiritual death called the "second death" in Rev.20, which means being cast into the future "lake of fire" when death is finally destroyed.

Rev 20:14-15
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

That final destruction of 'death' happens after... that "thousand years" period of Rev.20, not at Christ's return.


Apparently you don't realize that Apostle Paul taught this also in 1 Corinthians 15...

1 Cor 15:24-26
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
KJV

Paul gave a condition there before death is destroyed and the end comes. It's dependent upon Christ's reign over all His enemies first. And that's exactly what Rev.20 reveals, Christ and His elect reigning over all nations, including the unsaved. That certainly has not happened during this present world, for that will only begin with His future return.

Here's more info from Apostle Paul many have looked over...

1 Cor 15:54
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV

"corruptible" = phthartos = perishable, our flesh
"incorruption" = aphthrsia = incorruptibility, unending existence
"mortal" = thnetos = liable to die
"immortality" = athanasia = deathlessness

Most often, that passage is not taken back to the Greek to discover those 4 different meanings by Paul. It is usually misinterpreted to mean only for the Church, and only involving the resurrection of life unto Christ Jesus. But Paul is covering the "resurrection of damnation" there also, because he pointed to TWO separate changes being required to be of the resurrection of life in Jesus. And it's a simple matter, because our Lord Jesus in The Gospel showed the difference between a believer on Him being "born again" (i.e., means born from above in the Greek), vs. the unsaved as being like dead men walking around, because of having dead souls inside them that do not believe on Him.

That's 4 different words above that Apostle Paul used which have 4 different meanings. There's TWO different changes involved there for death to be swallowed up in victory. The flesh must put on incorruptibility (a "spiritual body" Paul taught there which is the resurrection body), and one's mortal, liable to die soul must put on immortality through Faith on Christ Jesus. The unsaved will not be in the latter condition when Jesus returns. Their souls/spirit will still be subject to the "second death" of Rev.20, which is the future casting into the "lake of fire". That's the idea of the "resurrection of damnation" our Lord Jesus spoke of in John 5:28-29 when He returns.

Zech 14:16
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV

That event is for after Christ's second coming.

...that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. -Ephesians 1:20–23

If one understands what God showed through Isaiah, then they should realize that our Heavenly Father has always been in control, and He uses Satan as a punishing rod upon the wicked and rebellious. Satan has no power of his own. God showed how Satan is metaphorically like whipping stick to be thrown into the fire when done punishing with it. So in reality, our Lord Jesus Who is God, has always been in control too. So that verse does not disprove His times and seasons that He showed us in His Word. You can't pull out a single verse that must align with the rest of His Word and try to apply a totally different meaning to it.

Back to the idea of Christ 'defeating death' at his return. This is sort of the achillies heel on the earthly Millennial issue, I believe...as well as a literal reading of Revelation in regards to the matter. Consider these verses:
....

Well, what Paul showed in 1 Cor.15:23-28 contains a 'condition'. I pointed it out above; it's that Jesus must first reign over all His enemies. Then the end will come. Technically, His future "thousand years" reign over the unsaved is part of this world timing, the new heavens and new earth time will not begin until His reign over the wicked is over, and those who reject Him are finally cast into the "lake of fire". And it is impossible to say our Lord Jesus is de facto reigning over all His enemies today in this present world, even though some don't care how foolish their false theories look.


The Millennial Kingdom is NOT now; like I said, Paul gave a condition in 1 Cor.15 for that Millennial Kingdom to manifest, and it's Christ and His elect reigning over ALL His enemies, which of course has not happened yet in this world, and won't until His return. This is why Zechariah 14 even shows those left of the nations will have come up against Israel on the last day of this world will be required to come up to Jerusalem to worship Him from year to year.

About the consuming fire event of 2 Peter 3 set to end this present world, it will end this flesh time for man. It will cleanse the whole earth of man's works off it. The word "elements" actually means rudiments, an order, and it's not really pointing to earthly material matter, but to a world order, a time on earth, comparable to previous times on earth that God destroyed. One of the reasons for the example of the hot fiery furnace in Daniel 4 with Jesus standing inside the furnace with His servants was to help calm our fears about God's consuming fire on that day. At the end of Hebrews 12 Apostle Paul also tried to calm us about it, pointing to how it will not destroy us, but is actually to help purge wickedness off this earth for... us, for Christ's Kingdom.

 

[Taken]

No reason you can't meet Christ in the clouds today,

Well of course there is reason, He hasn't lifted me up yet.

But get your fill of Death More Abundantly first I guess

Nah, more time to speak His Word.
:)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

if I testify of myself, my testimony is invalid

 

[Naomi25]

Matt 24;
The Christ Jesus is ON earth, giving His Disciples a brief answer to their questions.

AFTER Jesus has ascended up to Heaven;
Christ's Servant, a man IN Christ is called (by a sound of a TRUMP) "UP" above the Earth, and ENTERS through a DOOR, to Heaven (IN THE SPIRT,) to SEE, and then speak (TO Christ's servants) Prophecy of WHAT he SEES.

Rev 4
[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
[2] And immediately I was in the spirit:

As Jesus answered the Disciples in Matt 24, in brief....so also I believe John was given details of the SIGNS Jesus spoke of briefly in Matt 24.

Here's how I see Revelation clearly describing Johns vision.

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. -Revelation 1:1–2

So, first off the bat, we see that the Revelation is communicated by images ('to show') and that John was not "taken" anywhere, but that Christ made it known by "sending his angel" to John with such visions.
The book does give us more info, however:

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, -Revelation 1:10–12

Again we see the strength of "see" here, and the fact that he was still on earth when he 'saw'. We see here that he was "in the Spirit". What does that mean? Most scholars agree it means that he was meditating on the Lord and was surronded by and filled with the Holy Spirit.
I think, when it comes to Revelation, and to what you are speaking of...to John being 'taken to heaven', you are speaking of verses like this:

After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. -Revelation 4:1-2

The first thing to note is this: When John is told to "come up here" he is not 'bought up BY the Spirit', but it says he was 'at once I was IN the Spirit', and thus he was there and he saw. Now...could that mean he was physically transported into heaven to witness what he must? Absolutely. But the text doesn't demand it, as it could also easily read as John's concsiousness being taken to the throne room to be shown such things.
And if you think that I'm reaching here, there is, in fact, a biblical precedent for such a thing...or the possibility for it:

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 2 Corinthians 12:2–3

When Paul had his heavenly experience he tells us it was entirely possible he was just there 'in spirit'...or mind. He still saw and gleaned what he needed to, regardless. Likewise, we could say the same with John. He could have seen everything he needed to without his physical form leaving Patmos.

So also, I trust to believe, As John was Saved and Born Again, so also am I. And AS John was called UP above the Earth, IN THE spirit, by the Sound of the Lord's Voice, as a Trump, So also will I. And What shall commence ON Earth, will occur WHILE, I am NOT ON EARTH, same as John was NOT on earth.

The very big problem I see in linking what happened with John with the 'Rapture' of the saints/Christians, whatever you want to call them, is that it's a completely different 'deal'. Forget, for the moment that I suspect that John didn't bodily leave the earth...for this matter it's not relavent. What is important is that John, if he did leave bodily, left in his old body and came again in his old body. And the purpose for his 'trip' was to witness specific visions he was to pass onto the Church.
When the Rapture occurs, and those of us who are saved (and the dead who go before us) are raised into the air to meet him and to receive our new imperishable bodies, the purpose is wildly different. It will not to give images of Christ's return, it will BE Christ's return. It will not be for the purpose of giving hope to Christ's church, it will be FOR Christ's church. We will not be visiting for a bit and returning to the 'same old, same old', but we will be getting the new, banishing the old and farwelling death, sickness and grief.
It's like apples and oranges, and I'm just not sure how you can compare the two at all.

The BRIEF SIGNS Jesus spoke of in Matt...shall come to pass.

The DETAILED HAPPENINGS John spoke of in Rev...shall come to pass.

You seem to gloss over the details.

Ok, let me try and get into the details for you:

False Christs
And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. -Matthew 24:4–5

And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer. -Revelation 6:2

Wars, Unrest
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. -Matthew 24:6

And out came another horse, bright red. Its rider was permitted to take peace from the earth, so that people should slay one another, and he was given a great sword. -Revelation 6:4

Famine
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. -Matthew 24:7

And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!” -Revelation 6:6

Death, Plagues
And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. -Matthew 24:22

And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth. -Revelation 6:8

Believers Persecuted and Killed
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. -Matthew 24:9
When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” -Revelation 6:7–10

Signs in the Sky & Heavens
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. -Matthew 24:29

When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. -Revelation 6:12–14


Personally, it seems the details are fairly similar. Revelation does give more detail in the fact that the other cycles of 7 judgements go through it again and give us a little more or from a different angle. But...I suppose that's just perspective.
The real point, I believe, is this: when we consider all the "signs" above, the only one that we have not yet seen any of, is the intense signs in the skys and heavens that signal Christ's imminent return. History tells us of many Christs and false Christs...we still have them today. We always have wars and rumours of wars. Famine, pestilence and death is always with us, as is death from wild animals and contaminated water supplies or the sun (skin cancers, etc). Christians have always been persecuted for their faith and always will be.
So...given that these signs have always been, and will continue right up until Christ's return, it is not, therefore, strange to say that any other verse that talks of Christ's return (which is, after all, a theophany, which is always accompanied by manifestations of thunder, lightning, signs in the sky, etc) is a single, staggering event that wraps everything up.

 

[Naomi25]

WRATH... is ANGER
A response of ANGER, of the Lord God, is revealed in Revelations.

A man WHO believes IN GOD, IN CHRIST, does not make thee Lord God "ANGRY".

Thus a MAN Converted IN Christ, IS NOT subject to WRATH....What WRATH?
"ANY WRATH" from thee Lord God.

1 Thes 5
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath,

I am not arguing that God does not have righteous wrath against the ungodly. He MUST have wrath against the ungodly, or he would not be just, or good, or even loving.
What I am saying is that when we look at the bible passages that talk about God 'pouring out' his wrath on the ungodly, and our escaping it, it is always in the context of our salvation and their sudden judgement, not in a drawn out period of time upon the earth that Christians would be subject to if they were (and are, in some cases) still here to get caught in. Take, for example, the verse you quoted, incompletely, above:

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, -1 Thessalonians 5:9

While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. -1 Thessalonians 5:3

Our salvation in Christ (not in being whisked out of the world in the nick of time) and their 'sudden destruction'.

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. -Romans 5:9

Again, we are saved from the 'wrath of God' by salvation; by the blood of Christ, not by being Raptured away from the danger zone when the wrath goes down.

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. -Romans 2:5

This is an interesting verse, in the midst of an interesting passage on wrath and judgement. "The day of wrath"....storing up wrath for 'the day'. Something to think about.

 

[Taken]

Here's how I see Revelation clearly describing Johns vision.
.... is a single, staggering event that wraps everything up.

Disagree with pretty much how you see Reveleations.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

People UPON the Earth, suffer. rejecting God, rejecting Christ, and suffer, accepting God, accepting Christ...everyday.

Those who reject, suffer LOSS of Gods blessings.
Many who accept, suffer PERSECUTION from those who reject God and Christ.

THAT is foretold and ongoing.
End days TRIBULATION, compares NONE to everyday hardships and tribulations MEN have doled out.
End days TRIBULATIONS, are ACTIONS by SUPREME POWERS above anything a man can do.

I agree that everyday hardships are a part of life. The bible teaches it and it is self evident. I also agree that we can expect such things to increase as we approach the end ('birth pang' references). However, as I showed in my last post reply to you, the verses that talk of wrath and judgement against the ungodly speak of it in a 'last day' sort of scenario. As in...on that day when we see our salvation (that is already secure) come to pass at Christ's return, so too will sudden destruction come upon the ungodly when they face their judgement and God's wrath against them.

There you error.

Matt 24
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Matt 24:21 is clearly talking about the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Consider:

“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. -Matthew 24:15–21

Jesus is clearly talking about the Temple. There is Daniel's reference to the abomination in the holy place and the reference to Judea (not the whole world, like later on in the passage). Culturally, we see the type of houses found in Jerusalem, Sabbath expectations, and even historical timeframes in people working outside the city in fields who might usually expect to find shelter in a large, walled city.
We also know that this passage was clearly talking about the 70AD invasion and destruction because not a single Christian perished in the seige because they remembered this very warning from their Lord, and escaped to the mountains...
So, in this context, we must understand the 'great tribulation' Christ speaks of here, to be of the destruction of Jerusalem, which, if we read accounts from people like Josephus, was, perhaps not as numerically disasterous as the holocaust for the Jews, but still their most dreadful time. People turning against one another, starvation and eating the dead; mothers eating their children. And, of course, the destruction of their temple...the place of worship that they have been without since then...essentially ending their ability to worship their God as the OT demands. It was a catastrophic event.

Remember the Days of Noah.
Great tribulation...
All "ON" Earth died.
All "ALL Lifted UP Above the Earth" were saved.

In Noah's day:
Gen 6
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 7
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Noah's day...FEW saved, being LIFTED UP.
End days.....FEW saved, being LIFTED UP.
Noah's day...End days...LIFTED UP...or
suffer Separation from thee Lord God.

And there ARE tribulations. However endtime GREAT Tribulations is unparalleled.

Noah was protected on the earth, not taken out of it.

"WE" is subjective.... "WE" who are Converted IN Christ. And the "escape", is effected by NOT being "appointed" to Wrath, or "experiencing" the Wrath.

Scripture reference?

And will address that before going further into your further comment.

Glory to God,
Taken

I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. -John 17:15

 

[Naomi25]

Means to WHOM, and WHEN is the meaning applicable?

Never heard such a term, nor agree with it.

Christ is an exclusive term TO Jesus.
The term Christ, with the suffix "IAN", is mentioned 3 Times in scripture of what MEN, (not following Christ's teachings) called MEN (Who "were" following and promoting Christ's teachings).

Obviously I find a GREAT Difference between ONLY "following" Christ's teaching....
AND one who;
"Not ONLY follows" but ALSO become "Converted IN Christ".

And No, I do NOT believe that "APPLIES to ALL MEN, who do, or have or another does or has called that man" a Christ-ian.

Yes...following. Their choice. Desire, fear, whatever, their choice.

Seems you ignored...Judas followed Jesus, then betrayed Him.
Many disciples followed Christ, then STOPPED following Him.

Jesus point blank spoke to people (disciples following Him, saying He knows IF they truly believe Him or not...0 paraphrasing John chapt 6

John 6
[65] And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[66] From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

My POINT...as already disclosed.
Calling yourself a Christian, is merely an INDICATION you follow Jesus' Teaching.

ANY man saved and born again, reveals that man IS Converted IN Christ, regardless of what he calls himself.

There ARE Messaniac Jews, follow Jesus' Teachings AND who ARE saved and born Again, and DO NOT call themselves Christians.

AND there ARE many WHO call themselves Christians WHO are following Jesus' Teachings...BUT are NOT Converted, ie saved or Born again.

^^ That is one who IS not "ONLY" following, but HAS "ALSO" Become Converted IN Christ.
Disagree. IF one DOES NOT KNOW, the standing of another...How would one determine IF they should consider BEING "YOKED" in a relationship with the OTHER?

Today...People "Yoke" themselves in relationships, routinely, never considering, IF the other HAS a relationship WITH God.
Following Jesus, can come and go...
Conversion is permanent.
Ever think relationships begin on one saying, I'm a Christian....and then the other finds out, they were never Converted, and no longer following,? AND WHAT then?
WHO is the HEAD above those two in a relationship? The Lord? Obviously NOT...one is not Committed to the Lord.

For WHOM? A man and thee Lord yes.
I find it matters to the Lord, that 2 yoked in a relationship, BOTH bien Converted matters also. And by the domestic violence and divorce rate, I can see why.

Your opinion. I disagree.

Sure. A "FOLLOWER" is given measures of FAITH (a gift from God).
However a "FOLLOWER" who stops following, LOSES, receiving measures of FAITH (from God). And DAY to DAY, any (UNCONVERTED) man can claim, he is a christian, isn't a christian, is a christian, isn't a christian...is a believer, isn't a believer, is a believer, isn't a believer.

But ^^ THAT NOT SO, for a converted man.

And you can wonder if they are what you call "a false christian" or "a true Christian"

Same as Jesus did. "Converted".

You can say or not as you please. And I can believe as I observed.

Way to go on TOTALLY missing my point. My point: there are only two states: in Christ and not in Christ. I don't care what you call it. Most people call being In Christ a Christian...why? We follow Christ. It is not up to us to defend such label against fake Christians. What it is up to us to do is attempt to reach such people, so they can be in Christ in truth.
But when it really comes down to it; Jesus knows, and we trust. We trust, and we observe fruit, and that's all we can do. People can lie, so words are tricky.
But, you could write a thesis on this, which was not my point...which you missed. 2 states: In Christ...not In Christ.

I tend to immediately think IGNORANT, when people offer their disagreement about spiritual things, with trivial words added.
That doesn't particularly get my attention to for earnest desire to understand.

And I tend to think 'hogwash' when people posit ideas that are beyond bizare, cannot work in reality or even fantasy and don't have a shred of biblical proof to back it up. But, hey, that's just me.

So I leave that to you, to study about the 1,000 year resign of Christ Jesus on Earth, His Converted Saints with Him, and men repopulating the earth, limited to a life span of 120 years....
A hint for you. The Converted neither die, marry or reproduce.

Ridiculous nonsense, and obviously out of the mouths of unlearned people.

Glory to God,
Taken

The converted neither die, marry or reproduce...and yet, this place gets repopulated? So...it's only the unsaved 'normals' who reproduce? Except...how do any unsaved people get passed the second coming of Christ without being judged and sent away into eternal torment (Matt 25)...?
Oops, there I go again...hogwash.

 

[Naomi25]

Hi Naomi, Seeing as how our differences mainly lie on our definition of Rev. I created another post in the eschatology form titled, Prophecy vs. Apocalyptic to answer this statement.

Hey....I'll look at it when time permits, thanks!

 

[Taken]

.... and our escaping it, it is always in the context of our salvation and their sudden judgement, not in a drawn out period of time

I have NO expectation to BE ON earth during the Lambs Wrath UPON the earth, or during the WOES, or during Gods Wrath UPON the earth.

I quoted 42 months and 42 months. If you think that is drawn out and yourself not in agreement, you can counsil God on His plan.

...the verse you quoted, incompletely, above:

Can't speak for you, however, the last half of that verse does not APPLY TO ME. Nor does any portion of any verse APPLY TO ME, that has ALREADY been Accomplished.

For God has not destined us for wrath, but "to obtain" salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, -1 Thessalonians 5:9

~ "TO OBTAIN"...would not apply to ANY person who is ALREADY saved and born again.

While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. -1 Thessalonians 5:3

Again, You seem Unknowing, "WHAT PEOPLE" will be saying...."peace and safety"...and "WHY" and "NOT WHISKED AWAY" <--- paraphrasing "your words".

FYI, "I shall not be among "those people".
That verse does not APPLY to me.

Our salvation in Christ (not in being whisked out of the world in the nick of time) and their 'sudden destruction'.

"MY" salvation in Christ, is because He offered it to "ME" and I accepted His offer. PERIOD.
Gods PLAN, that "I" be with my Lord, lifted UP above Destructions UPON the Earth, is "PART" of "MY" blessing, for having BeCOME Converted.

Again, we are saved from the 'wrath of God' by salvation; by the blood of Christ,not by being Raptured away from the danger zone when the wrath goes down.

That is a strange argument ^^.

Salvation is offered, and either accepted or rejected. PERIOD.

Not being subject to Wrath is His Protection FOR those WHO ARE Saved.

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. -Romans 2:5

Does ^^ that APPLY to you?
Because it does NOT APPLY to me.

This is an interesting verse, in the midst of an interesting passage on wrath and judgement. "The day of wrath"....storing up wrath for 'the day'. Something to think about.

I have other things to think about, rather than Scripts that do not Apply to me.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Way to go on TOTALLY missing my point. My point: there are only two states: in Christ and not in Christ. I don't care what you call it. Most people call being In Christ a Christian...why? We follow Christ. It is not up to us to defend such label against fake Christians.

Do you grasp how misunderstood Christianity is to the World?
It would baffle me too, to hear Christian says, well, uh, there are only two states:
In Christ and not in Chirst....and
In Christ is a Christian....and BTW there are "Fake Christians"...

And I tend to think 'hogwash' when people posit ideas that are beyond bizare, cannot work in reality or even and don't have a shred of biblical proof to back it up. But, hey, that's just me.fantasy

When speaking of spiritual things, according to spiritual understanding and another continues to lean on natural understanding, maks silly remarks and is looking for proof, I tend to think, hey, that's not me.

The converted neither die, marry or reproduce...and yet, this place gets repopulated?

No, not "this place". And No, not repopulated by the Converted.

So...it's only the unsaved 'normals' who reproduce?

I neither said or implied such.

Except...how do any unsaved people get passed the second coming of Christ without being judged and sent away into eternal torment (Matt 25)...?

Oops, there I go again...hogwash.[/QUOTE]

Agree.

Start over and follow the detailed Order, if knowledge is your interest. Thereafter comes the understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Matt 24:21 is clearly talking about the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Consider:

“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. -Matthew 24:15–21

Jesus is clearly talking about the Temple. There is Daniel's reference to the abomination in the holy place and the reference to Judea (not the whole world, like later on in the passage). Culturally, we see the type of houses found in Jerusalem, Sabbath expectations, and even historical timeframes in people working outside the city in fields who might usually expect to find shelter in a large, walled city.
We also know that this passage was clearly talking about the 70AD invasion and destruction because not a single Christian perished in the seige because they remembered this very warning from their Lord, and escaped to the mountains...
So, in this context, we must understand the 'great tribulation' Christ speaks of here, to be of the destruction of Jerusalem, which, if we read accounts from people like Josephus, was, perhaps not as numerically disasterous as the holocaust for the Jews, but still their most dreadful time. People turning against one another, starvation and eating the dead; mothers eating their children. And, of course, the destruction of their temple...the place of worship that they have been without since then...essentially ending their ability to worship their God as the OT demands. It was a catastrophic event.

Already Considered:
Temple is a reference to Jews.
Already Considered:
Jews (for the most part), do not YET believe Christ Jesus is their Messiah.
Already Considered:
God has a plan for HIS People, Israel, who are faithful TO GOD.
Already Considered;
What applies to the Jews at large and their Salvation does not apply to me.

Noah was protected on the earth, not taken out of it.

Factually ALL men were taken "OUT" of the Earth.
Factually I said nothing about Noah's natural birth or being TAKEN OUT OF THE EARTH.
Factually I specifically said Noah was Lifted UP above the Earth.
Factually Noah was NOT ON THE EARTH.
Factually Scripture says:

Gen 7
[13] In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark.

Gen 7
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Gen 7
[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. -John 17:15

them

Pretty handy, that the disciples of Jesus were protected from evil and able to accomplish what Jesus had taught them, and sent them to do. Eh?

Fact is all are sentenced to BODILY death.
But good to know, disciples of Christ Jesus, have God to protect them from evil...and so also from destruction upon the earth....as in the days of Noah.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[n2thelight]

I have NO expectation to BE ON earth during the Lambs Wrath UPON the earth, or during the WOES, or during Gods Wrath UPON the earth.

Where are you going?Nobody goes to Heaven unless they die,short of that we living shall be here at His 2nd coming

Do you not see that the plaques mirror those that fell on Egypt? Were the Israelites raptured? No they were not ,they were protected by the blood.

Our blood now is in Christ

Psalms 91:7 "A thousand shall fall at thy side, And ten thousand at thy right hand, But it shall not come nigh thee."

 

[n2thelight]

And Why would it specifically Apply to some and not others?
Because not all are Converted.

Focusing on this,some say Matthew 24 is written to the Jew's,my question to you,do Jew's get it both ways?Meaning if they convert,they will be raptured,if not,they will be saved anyway?

Do you see how absurd that sounds?

 

[n2thelight]

And if as rapturist say Matthew 24 is written what would you have us do with Mark 13 which is an exact parallel of Matthew 24

Mark 13:37 "And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch."

 

[bbyrd009]

He MUST have wrath against the ungodly, or he would not be just, or good, or even loving.

"here, have a skin then"