Are Pastors Teaching a Watered-Down Gospel?

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Soverign Grace

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We've seen our country and others take a nosedive in morality and I wondered if it was caused mostly by Pastors and Churches turning from the steadfast truth of Scripture to compromising with the world. The church has seemed to lose its restraining power against evil.

We're warned that there is a departing from the faith in the end times but even with this Scripture many pastors - and Christians - don't seem to grasp that we're part of the problem and acknowledge clear Scripture verses. Are they - and we - such conformists that we no longer want to bear the shame of the cross or to be different from others?

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Mark 8:38 - Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

We know that there are rewards for those who hold fast and follow the narrow way but it seems that there are far too many Pastors leading the flock astray and that's supposed to land Christians in a worse state.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

I'm unsure about this verse, if it's addressing Christians or just people in general, but Christians have become like the world:

Matthew 24:10-13 - And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

Yesterday I was reading an article by Pastor Chuck Baldwin which led me into a study of this. I know that nothing divides Christians like politics but I think that his message is worth sharing. I know that Hillary is far worse than Trump, and I voted for Trump and would again (if our votes count), but Baldwin's message still resonated with me. I think that Christians were fooled by Bush as Baldwin asserts - I don't think Bush was any more of a Christian than Hillary was, and Baldwin points to the hypocrisy of evangelicals who supported him. Our pastor asked us to pray for the Bush family when Bush Sr. died "because he said he was a Christian." I was disheartened because anyone can say they're a Christian, and we're given warnings in Scripture about false brethren. We're warned that Satan appears as an angel of light and his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Wouldn't a leader be one of Satan's most effective vessels to mislead the flock and nation?

Philippians 3:18

“(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:”

The truth about Donald Trump

By Chuck Baldwin

This column is written primarily in response to the way a host of televangelists, pastors, self-professing Christian talk show hosts, and Christian leaders are promoting Donald Trump as being a man of “bold Christian faith,” a “Bible-believing Christian,” a “modern Moses,” a “modern John The Baptist,” a “man for the Body of Christ,” a “REAL Christian,” etc., ad infinitum.

Forgive me, but I’ve heard all of this before: back when G.W. Bush was President. One noticeable distinction between Bush II and Trump I is Bush truly did often publically express a personal faith in Jesus Christ – not that that made him a better President. If you ask me, G.W. Bush was one of America’s very WORST presidents – his Christian profession notwithstanding.

In August of last year, I posted a list of the men I believe are America’s ten worst presidents on my Facebook page. If you are interested, here is my list:

Chuck Baldwin Facebook Post – America’s Ten Worst Presidents

But at no time has Donald Trump made a public profession of faith in Jesus Christ. A bunch of reverends have claimed Trump has made such a profession, but we have never heard it from Trump himself. And, again, I am not judging his presidency on his religious profession or lack thereof. I judge a civil magistrate – any civil magistrate – on his or her fidelity to the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and principles contained in the Declaration of Independence. That’s it. I really don’t care what the magistrate calls him or herself or what religious label he or she goes by or even what political party they say they represent. I’m merely pointing out the fact that all of the hype about Trump’s Christian profession by these sycophantic, pandering preachers is mere propaganda. And THAT bothers me. I am afraid that these Christian “leaders” are setting America up for another long, bloody war.

So, as a pastor with a national audience, it behooves me to say something.

Because G.W. Bush claimed to be a believer in Jesus Christ, he absolutely could do no wrong in the eyes of America’s evangelical pastors and Christians. When he took America into two unconstitutional, illegal, and immoral wars, Christians cheered; when he bombed innocent men, women, and children in the name of the “war on terror,” Christians cheered; when he created a brand new war doctrine – the preemptive war doctrine – Christians cheered; when he created a gigantic surveillance state and national police force, Christians cheered; when he filled his cabinet and administration with CFR globalists, Christians cheered; and when Bush partnered with Bill and Hillary Clinton in what can only be described as an international crime family, Christians, well, they looked the other way. Bush was a “born-again Christian,” so he could do no wrong.

Like I said, I’ve heard all of this before.

Christians (and conservatives) completely overlooked the Bush family connections to Saudi Arabia; the Bush family connections to international drug running; the Bush family connections to globalist war traders and profiteers; and the Bush family connections to German Nazism and Italian fascism. Bush was a “Christian” and could do no wrong.

And with Donald Trump in the White House, the televangelists, preachers, and Christian leaders are at it again. But here is what Christians are completely overlooking about Donald Trump.

*Donald Trump spent his entire adult life scamming people out of billions of dollars.

Trump’s companies have filed for bankruptcy seven times, taking billions of dollars out of people’s pockets in the process. When Trump filed bankruptcy over the Trump Taj Mahal in Atlantic City, New Jersey, in 1991, he was $3 billion in debt. Other Trump bankruptcies involving the loss (for other people) of multiple billions of dollars include The Trump Castle in Atlantic City, Trump Plaza and Casino in Atlantic City, the Plaza Hotel in New York City, Trump Hotels and Casino Resorts in Atlantic City, and Trump Entertainment Resorts in Atlantic City (once in 2009 and again in 2014). Trump actually brags about these bankruptcies as being “good business.” Speaking of his multiple bankruptcies, Trump gloated, “I don’t think it’s a failure; it’s a success.”

Doug Heller, the executive director of Consumer Watchdog, said Trump is the “most egregious, almost comical example” of the disparity between what the average American faces when going through bankruptcy and the “ease with which the very rich can move in and out of bankruptcy.”

Read this article to get the truth about the Trump bankruptcies:

The Truth About The Rise And Fall Of Donald Trump’s Atlantic City Empire

To this day, Trump brags about how “smart” he is as a businessman and shows absolutely no remorse over the billions and billions of dollars that he has bilked out of investors and partners. Shrewd, unscrupulous charlatans might view all of this as “good business,” but it is hardly the mark of a Christian – or even an honorable man.

*Donald Trump spent his entire adult life as a philandering playboy.

Most everyone knows that Donald Trump has been married three times and has had innumerable sexual affairs. When Trump was deposed in the divorce with his first wife, Ivana, he invoked the 5th Amendment right to keep silent about his relationship with “other women” 97 times. He had an affair with his second wife Marla Maples while he was still married to Ivana.
 
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Soverign Grace

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Regarding his current wife, Melania: “In 1999, shortly after they began dating, she participated in an on-air phone call with Trump and Howard Stern, as they discussed her chest, and whether she stole money from Donald’s wallet. When Stern asked to talk to ‘that broad in your bed,’ Trump put her on the line, and she spoke about how they had sex more than daily, and revealed that she was nearly nude. Stern replied, ‘I have my pants off already.’ Thanks to her relationship with Trump, she finally got her glossy-magazine spread – nearly naked in British GQ, handcuffed to a briefcase on a private jet, which Trump supplied. Managing the career moves of his companions was part of a pattern. While he was still married to Ivana, Trump pushed his girlfriend Marla Maples to pose nude in Playboy and reportedly negotiated the fee himself. (The deal fell through.)”

“As Donald’s celebrity ballooned with The Apprentice, Melania was asked to tolerate even more [humiliation]. His public interchanges with Howard Stern, which provided a kind of Greek chorus to their relationship, went from lewdly objectifying to grotesque. He agreed with Stern that his daughter Ivanka was ‘a piece of a##.’ He joked that if Melania were in a horrible, mangling car crash he’d still love her as long as the breasts remained intact. When asked by Stern whether he’d be up for ‘banging 24-year-olds,’ Trump eagerly assented. Subsequent accusations suggest similar improprieties.” (Source: Vanity Fair magazine, April, 2017)

Trump’s lifelong immoralities, infidelities, and sexcapades cannot even be discussed in polite company.

This is the cold, hard truth about who and what Donald Trump has been all of his life. The sleazy statement Trump was caught saying with Billy Bush during the presidential campaign last year was a revelation – not an aberration – of Trump’s personal life.

There is absolutely NOTHING to suggest that Donald Trump even comprehends what honesty, integrity, fidelity, or wholesomeness even looks like.

Oh, yes, and there is this:

*Donald Trump spent his entire business life consorting with international crime syndicates and the Jewish mafia.

One does not become an international casino tycoon without getting in bed with gangsters. The stories revealing Trump’s connections to global criminal enterprises are just now beginning to surface on the Internet. It’s not a pretty picture. If anything, the mainstream media has given Trump a pass so far on the real truth about Trump’s shady shenanigans. If Trump is removed from office, it will be because his past will have finally caught up with him – and because the globalists knew that they could use Trump and, due to his sordid past, take him down at any time. That’s how they work, folks.

Months ago, I posted on my Facebook page that I expected Mike Pence would assume the presidency at some point. I still think that Pence is the one the globalists really want in the White House right now but knew he could not get there without Trump. The only question in my mind is whether Donald Trump is a witting or unwitting participant in the globalists’ scheme.

Here was my Facebook post back on June 20:

Chuck Baldwin Facebook Post – Mike Pence

But I digress.

“Last week, the United States’ Ninth Circuit Court addressed an ongoing case involving the city of Almaty, one of Kazakhstan’s most outspoken critics, and millions of dollars in American real estate – some of which is tied directly to the U.S. president.

“As Courthouse News reported, the Ninth Circuit ‘revived a $300 million civil racketeering lawsuit’ from the city of Almaty against Viktor Khrapunov, the erstwhile Almaty mayor who, city representatives claim, invested millions in real estate abroad. The ruling reversed an earlier decision moving the lawsuit out of California, and allowed the suit to proceed in the state.”

“However, the relationship between Trump and Khrapunov may present the most serious, and certainly the strangest, wrinkle in relations between Astana and Washington moving forward. After all, despite the fact that Central Asian regimes have proven increasingly adept at pursuing governmental opponents abroad, they’ve never dealt with one who is a tenant of a building named after the sitting president.

“It remains unclear how Kazakhstani officials will approach their case against Khrapunov, especially now that it’s been re-opened in the United States. But the case suddenly presents not simply a fascinating development in post-Soviet autocracies’ pursuit of critics abroad, but one with the additional obstacle of linking directly to the American president. Trump may have recently described Kazakhstan’s economic progress as a ‘miracle,’ and he may be completely unaware of his role in the ongoing Kazakhstan-Khrapunov saga, but Astana – along with U.S.-Central Asian relations – is stepping into unknown territory. The president, as of early April, may have little interest in the region but, as we’ve seen, things can change swiftly when it involves Trump’s properties.”

See the report:

How Trump Is Connected To A Kazakh Corruption Scandal

And Trump’s association with Jewish mafia billionaires – among whom Trump’s son-in-law Jared Kushner (Ivanka’s husband) and his family belong – is easily documented. I’m talking about men such as Alexander Mashkevich, Tevfik Arif (not Jewish by birth but a strong Zionist), Felix Henry Sater, and Lev Avnerovich Leviev. Look them up for yourself. Jewish Zionist Wilbur Ross (Bilderberg), whom Trump appointed as Secretary of Commerce, was one of the Jewish billionaire Rothschild bankers who bailed Trump out of one of his bankruptcies.

This is the character of the man who sits in the White House. This is the character of the man who has his finger on the nuclear suitcase. This is the character of the man that our televangelists and Christian leaders are hailing as a “modern John the Baptist.” This is the character of the man that Christians are expecting to “save” America.

And now Trump has endorsed the establishment toady Luther Strange over Judge Roy Moore in the U.S. Senate race in Alabama. There is no finer Christian and no braver patriot than Roy Moore. I cannot think of another man in public office who more courageously took on the establishment than Judge Roy Moore. If Donald Trump truly wanted to drain the swamp in Washington, D.C., there is no man in the country who could better help him do it than Judge Moore. But Trump endorsed the establishment lackey Luther Strange. Regardless, Christian leaders, talk show hosts, and televangelists will still try to tell us what a wonderful Christian Donald Trump is. It is truly incredible!

Does all of this mean that Donald Trump cannot and will not make some good decisions as our President? No! Not at all. If it’s true that Trump ordered the CIA to stop supporting the Syrian rebels, that was a very good decision. And I applaud Trump’s decision to ban transgenders from the U.S. military. My only question is why he didn’t ban all homosexuals from military service at the same time. Since the days of George Washington, the U.S. military has always deemed that homosexuality was “incompatible” with military service. And indeed it is. So, why did Trump stop with transgenders? Why did Trump leave that Barack Obama order allowing homosexuals to serve in the military intact? And for that matter, why doesn’t Trump undo Obama’s order putting women in combat units and on submarines?
 

Soverign Grace

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I am told by trusted, Christian attorney friends that Trump’s justice department is advocating against cases that provide legal preferences on the basis of aberrant sexual behavior. I applaud Trump for this. Trump has taken a public stand in support of the Second Amendment. I applaud Trump for this. I applaud Trump for making it difficult for manufacturing companies to relocate overseas and for keeping jobs in and bringing jobs back to the United States. I applaud Trump for drawing attention to our illegal immigration problem – albeit I strongly object to the way Trump inserted religion into the debate. And I don’t like walls. The Berlin Wall was not built to keep people out; it was built to keep people IN.

It is way too early to applaud Trump for his Supreme Court appointment Neil Gorsuch. Like so many of Trump’s appointees, Gorsuch is CFR. That makes it very doubtful that Gorsuch will be faithful to constitutional government. And, as I have said before, for the most part, Gorsuch is untested on the issues that really matter. So, we’ll see.

There are several other decisions Trump has made that I could likewise applaud. G.W. Bush made some good decisions too. But that doesn’t change who Bush was or who Trump is.

For Christian leaders, televangelists, and “Christian” talk show hosts to make Trump into a “modern John the Baptist” and refuse to deal with the true nature of this man we call President is the height of gullibility and irresponsibility.

Was Hillary Clinton any better? Of course not. Are people to be blamed for voting for Donald Trump? Not at all. Although I will say that if Christian leaders, pastors, conservative pundits, talk show hosts, etc., would be more honest and objective during the primary elections – and if they had a better understanding of constitutional government, liberty principles, sound money principles, Natural Law, etc. – we would not always be forced to choose between the “lesser of two evils” every general election. But, again, I digress.

Believe it or not, this column is not intended as an anti-Trump rant. Instead, it is an honest, truthful analysis of the man we elected President of the United States. It IS intended to be a wake-up call for my Christian brethren across the country to GET REAL.

The only way to truly gauge the character of a person is by their track record. The track record of Donald Trump is not pretty. But he is the President. Accordingly, we should support him when his decisions are constitutional, and we should oppose him when his decisions are not constitutional – and we should pray that he doesn’t take us into World War III. But the last thing in the world we should be doing – at least the last thing Christians should be doing – is making him out to be a “modern John the Baptist” and the like.

No wonder so many people think Christians are stupid.

P.S. We are still shipping our special printing of George Washington’s Farewell Address. Washington’s Farewell Address is a masterpiece. Almost every national problem America has faced and is facing is a direct result of forsaking the principles laid out for us in this remarkable address.

I consider George Washington’s Farewell Address to be the greatest political address ever delivered to the American people, which is why I am making this historic address available in this special printing. A return to the principles contained in Washington’s Farewell Address would most certainly restore our republic – even now.
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I know that Christians won't agree on this and I know that there is much sin in all of us (please excuse this; I don't want to offend Trump supporters) but I think that the church has lost its authority because pastors are compromising with the world. Not just about Trump but about everything. Sin isn't called sin anymore, they're bowing to the god of political correctness. It seems that the church is in a weakened position for the battle that lies ahead. I really miss those days when right was right and wrong was wrong and we didn't have this confusion. It's as if we must have a lawyer on retainer to check with prior to speaking. I think that political correctness is of the evil one.
 
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Dave L

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The "free will gospel" is not the biblical gospel. Although God saves whom he will under some of the most feeble preaching.
 
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Soverign Grace

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Yes but why? Why are pastors compromising with the world? And so many of them. At times I flip on sermons on TV and within 5 minutes turn the set off - I can't stand hearing lies taught. It seems that many want to be wealthy or succumb to pride like Rick Warren. Are we supposed to hold our pastors accountable? Of course you don't financially support those whom you disagree with, and we can warn loved ones away from false or misguided teachers but are we to do more?

We all agree that things are a mess and I'm wondering what we should do about it or if we should allow God to speak to our pastors' hearts?

James 1:22

“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
 

Episkopos

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Yes but why? Why are pastors compromising with the world? And so many of them. At times I flip on sermons on TV and within 5 minutes turn the set off - I can't stand hearing lies taught. It seems that many want to be wealthy or succumb to pride like Rick Warren. Are we supposed to hold our pastors accountable? Of course you don't financially support those whom you disagree with, and we can warn loved ones away from false or misguided teachers but are we to do more?

We all agree that things are a mess and I'm wondering what we should do about it or if we should allow God to speak to our pastors' hearts?

James 1:22

“But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”

People are looking to other people...for acceptance, salaries, direction....etc.


But few indeed are seeking the Lord.

Why? Because to seek the Lord one must forsake seeking things from other people.
 
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Soverign Grace

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The "free will gospel" is not the biblical gospel. Although God saves whom he will under some of the most feeble preaching.

I've never heard of the 'free will gospel' but I can speculate on what it means. And you have a point because I was badly misled early on - I listened to the name-it-and-claim-it preachers, and the send-in-your-seed-faith-gift-for-a-blessing-today preachers and I still got Scripture within my spirit so God was able to use even them. But they misled me badly early on and I think it's such a shame. But I think that they're doing much damage to the nation as a whole because they're compromising with the world and preaching one thing and doing another.

We went to a corrupt church one time - a family started it and ran it. I had been warned about them and the warnings turned out to be true. I was glad for the warning. Even the pastor left the church and called us to his house one night and told us everything. But that family hurt a lot of people. I later spoke with a woman who left the church. She worked with them and told me that they were very corrupt in business - so it's not a far stretch to surmise that they're corrupt in church and she told me that it hurt her because they were misleading a lot of people who went to their church. It caught up to them and they became embroiled in a nasty scandal - their names were reported nationwide in every newspaper and on TV. They were greatly shamed but not before doing a lot of damage to a lot of people, and the church and christianity as a whole. They're still running a church today, and sucking in newcomers who don't know about them and their corrupt past. And I think they're probably still fleecing people. A leopard doesn't change its spots.

What do you do when you encounter godlessness in teaching? That's why I like the old preachers - they held to the Word.
 
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Dave L

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I've never heard of the 'free will gospel' but I can speculate on what it means. And you have a point because I was badly misled early on - I listened to the name-it-and-claim-it preachers, and the send-in-your-seed-faith-gift-for-a-blessing-today preachers and I still got Scripture within my spirit so God was able to use even them. But they misled me badly early on and I think it's such a shame. But I think that they're doing much damage to the nation as a whole because they're compromising with the world and preaching one thing and doing another.

We went to a corrupt church one time - a family started it and ran it. I had been warned about them and the warnings turned out to be true. I was glad for the warning. Even the pastor left the church and called us to his house one night and told us everything. But that family hurt a lot of people. I later spoke with a woman who left the church. She worked with them and told me that they were very corrupt in business - so it's not a far stretch to surmise that they're corrupt in church and she told me that it hurt her because they were misleading a lot of people who went to their church. It caught up to them and they became embroiled in a nasty scandal - their names were reported nationwide in every newspaper and on TV. They were greatly shamed but not before doing a lot of damage to a lot of people, and the church and christianity as a whole. They're still running a church today, and sucking in newcomers who don't know about them and their corrupt past. And I think they're probably still fleecing people. A leopard doesn't change its spots.

What do you do when you encounter godlessness in teaching? That's why I like the old preachers - they held to the Word.
What I've observed is the free will gospel turns the gospel into law and grace into works. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. But the free will gospel says you must choose to believe as a legal requirement for salvation. But if you must choose to believe, it is because you don't believe. In another sense, you must already believe (be saved according to Jesus) or you would never choose to believe.
 

Soverign Grace

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People are looking to other people...for acceptance, salaries, direction....etc.


But few indeed are seeking the Lord.

Why? Because to seek the Lord one must forsake seeking things from other people.

I wonder why peer pressure and compromising with the world is so pronounced today though. Years ago it wasn't that way - or at least from my memory it wasn't. We're in an anything-goes society and pastors are being shaped to the mold of the world instead of the other way around.

I saw that looking for acceptance and depending on salaries in the corrupt church we were in; but no one stood up against it - they all went along with whatever the corrupt family said or did. A "blind leading the blind" scenario. They should not have been leading anything, and they acted like their word was sacrosanct - I think they were spoiled because they were millionaires. The pastor even went along with it for awhile which disappointed me. He should have left the church at the first lie they told or first act of corruption. He stayed for several years - I think because he needed the salary. He asked me to pray for he and his wife and didn't say why, but I sensed he was going to leave. We went to church and he announced it. It made me feel terrible because he was a good preacher - but I respected him more for leaving. It was the last time we went to that church. Then the pastor called us over and told us how corrupt they were, but I had already heard it. But the corrupt family bought a new preacher to mislead. I wish that God would put them out of business before they destroy more people.
 

Episkopos

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I wonder why peer pressure and compromising with the world is so pronounced today though. Years ago it wasn't that way - or at least from my memory it wasn't. We're in an anything-goes society and pastors are being shaped to the mold of the world instead of the other way around.

I saw that looking for acceptance and depending on salaries in the corrupt church we were in; but no one stood up against it - they all went along with whatever the corrupt family said or did. A "blind leading the blind" scenario. They should not have been leading anything, and they acted like their word was sacrosanct - I think they were spoiled because they were millionaires. The pastor even went along with it for awhile which disappointed me. He should have left the church at the first lie they told or first act of corruption. He stayed for several years - I think because he needed the salary. He asked me to pray for he and his wife and didn't say why, but I sensed he was going to leave. We went to church and he announced it. It made me feel terrible because he was a good preacher - but I respected him more for leaving. It was the last time we went to that church. Then the pastor called us over and told us how corrupt they were, but I had already heard it. But the corrupt family bought a new preacher to mislead. I wish that God would put them out of business before they destroy more people.

The whole modern concept of the church has proven to be a failure. It is no way resembles the biblical model of the church. Things are just going to get worse.
 

Soverign Grace

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What I've observed is the free will gospel turns the gospel into law and grace into works. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. But the free will gospel says you must choose to believe as a legal requirement for salvation. But if you must choose to believe, it is because you don't believe. In another sense, you must already believe (be saved according to Jesus) or you would never choose to believe.

What is the free will gospel - does someone teach it, such as a TV evangelist? I thought that I encountered every false teaching early on, but I somehow escaped that one.
 
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Dave L

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What is the free will gospel - does someone teach it, such as a TV evangelist? I thought that I encountered every false teaching early on, but I somehow escaped that one.
Law depends on free will. People are held accountable because they can freely choose to obey or disobey. But the gospel is not law. It is an announcement that whoever believes in Jesus (according to the scriptures) has eternal life. But as soon as you say whoever chooses to believe, has eternal life, you turn the gospel into law and grace into works, making flesh faith (not able to save) the condition for salvation.
 

Soverign Grace

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The whole modern concept of the church has proven to be a failure. It is no way resembles the biblical model of the church. Things are just going to get worse.

There are a lot of churches that bear little resemblance to Christ. We went to a legalistic church that was bad - the people were pointing the finger at one another and very judgmental. We left and learned the pastor's wife killed herself. It was so sad but if I were her I wouldn't want to be forced to be around such snooty people constantly putting you under a microscope. Then we went to the corrupt church and the family that owned it was caught in a scandal. We finally wound up in the church we're at now and we love it. It's old-fashioned - they still sing the old hymns. People are laid back and kind. But I don't know why God had us "wander in the desert" before we found this church. I thought maybe it's because we now have the conviction to know what kind of church we should belong to, and how to recognize an unhealthy church.

Do you avoid the established church? I knew a few believers years back who left the organized church and went to home churches. The place where I really grow is in bible study. We're in one right now that's good.
 

Soverign Grace

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Law depends on free will. People are held accountable because they can freely choose to obey or disobey. But the gospel is not law. It is an announcement that whoever believes in Jesus (according to the scriptures) has eternal life. But as soon as you say whoever chooses to believe, has eternal life, you turn the gospel into law and grace into works, making flesh faith (not able to save) the condition for salvation.

Do any TV evangelists teach that? They were who misled me early on. I finally stopped listening to any for awhile and waited for God to show me what the truth was. I came from a Catholic background so I didn't know anything. Someone in our family line didn't pass on the faith because I learned that my great grandfather was a preacher. My mother was Protestant and married my Catholic father. My father used to take us to Catholic church and I went to Catechism but I came through that knowing nothing. I was disappointed that someone in my mother's family line dropped the ball.
 
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Dave L

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Do any TV evangelists teach that? They were who misled me early on. I finally stopped listening to any for awhile and waited for God to show me what the truth was. I came from a Catholic background so I didn't know anything. Someone in our family line didn't pass on the faith because I learned that my great grandfather was a preacher. My mother was Protestant and married my Catholic father. My father used to take us to Catholic church and I went to Catechism but I came through that knowing nothing. I was disappointed that someone in my mother's family line dropped the ball.
Nearly all preach a legalistic works oriented gospel today. They present it as a law you must choose to obey. They all say you must do something to close the deal. Whether it be sacraments, choosing to believe, or anything resulting in an act of the will.

But the gospel is unconditional. It simply states "whoever believes in Jesus (according to the scriptures) has eternal life". That is, if you believe what you are hearing about Jesus, you have eternal life. Therefore you should repent and be baptized and live a holy life. So works follow, but they do not lead to salvation.
 
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Willie T

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Nearly all preach a legalistic works oriented gospel today. They present it as a law you must choose to obey. They all say you must do something to close the deal. Whether it be sacraments, choosing to believe, or anything resulting in an act of the will.

But the gospel is unconditional. It simply states "whoever believes in Jesus (according to the scriptures) has eternal life". That is, if you believe what you are hearing about Jesus, you have eternal life. Therefore you should repent and be baptized and live a holy life. So works follow, but they do not lead to salvation.
How do you "believe", if you do not consciously CHOOSE to believe?
 
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Dave L

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How do you "believe", if you do not consciously CHOOSE to believe?
Do you choose to believe you exist? If you believe the gospel as you hear it, you have eternal life. If you must choose to believe it, it is because you don't believe and must force yourself to believe with the flesh.
 
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Willie T

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Do you choose to believe you exist? If you believe the gospel as you hear it, you have eternal life. If you must choose to believe it, it is because you don't believe and must force yourself to believe with the flesh.
That's about the most "double-speak" religious-sounding nonsense I have read since I read the book, 1984. LOL
 

Episkopos

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There are a lot of churches that bear little resemblance to Christ. We went to a legalistic church that was bad - the people were pointing the finger at one another and very judgmental. We left and learned the pastor's wife killed herself. It was so sad but if I were her I wouldn't want to be forced to be around such snooty people constantly putting you under a microscope. Then we went to the corrupt church and the family that owned it was caught in a scandal. We finally wound up in the church we're at now and we love it. It's old-fashioned - they still sing the old hymns. People are laid back and kind. But I don't know why God had us "wander in the desert" before we found this church. I thought maybe it's because we now have the conviction to know what kind of church we should belong to, and how to recognize an unhealthy church.

Do you avoid the established church? I knew a few believers years back who left the organized church and went to home churches. The place where I really grow is in bible study. We're in one right now that's good.

Yes...house church. The best thing is to find other seekers of God and journey with them.