Here we go - Slavery

[Taken]

This does not explain why god instituted rules for a slave owner (one human) to beat their slave (another human). I did not read where it said why a slave can be beat. It seems that is up to the owner.

Where are you getting God directed men to BEAT slaves?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Windmill Charge]

"Now these are the rules that you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing." (Ex 21:1-2, ESV)

"When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money." (Ex 21:20-21 ESV)

This verse in context is saying these things:
1. God made rules for one person to enslave another by.
2. God says here that a slave is another persons money, dehumanizing them.
3. God made rules for one person to beat another with a rod.
4. God is ok with a slave being beaten so bad that he may only survive a day or two as long as you don't hit them in the eye or make a tooth come out (26-27).

Why is this god, if he exists, to be followed? Or, are these verses saying something different?

Before I provide any answer to your question, please say why your philosophy of life demonstrates that slavery is wrong?

 

[Dave L]

He does punish sinners. Either with his son or they get punished in hell right? Where does it say beatings are payment for sins? Should people be allowed to beat their slaves today?

Is the person owning or beating the slave sinning if we are to love others as our equal?

 

[bbyrd009]

How do you support these claims?

I haven't read ahead yet but my guess is he will not. Religious ppl seek facts and proof from the Bible, Vince, but It was surely written on a different level. So, I don't mean to intrude or get involved here ok, but you are not even asking the right q i guess.

You might choose a "claim" that you feel is unsupported or don't agree with the interpretation of maybe, but if you are intent upon reading about literal slaves I guess it won't serve you much anyway.

I'd love to suggest a sample q there but I don't see anything hanging out in the perspective, which is fwiw how I would be listening to him especially.

@Willie T accepting his premises if even just for the moment, do you see any inconsistencies? Do you find any of the premises impossible to accept?

 

[bbyrd009]

Hebrew slave is the reason or if you wish, common sense that serves the mind (the owner) in accomplishing the works of virtue (the number six) as if ordering and maintaining his house (soul). Before the soul is established in virtue, reason (along with the mind) is subject to whatever passion(s) (lust, anger, greed, ignorance, atheism…) one is enslaved to. Once moral perfection is achieved, reaching the seventh year as it were, then one is set free from all addictions (scripture also calls these the will of the flesh) and can freely and unerringly occupy himself with other spiritual contemplations.

Male slave is anger and female slave is desire. If one willfully, that is what the rod implies, gives into (strikes) his anger or lust and commits (hand) a sin (death) he shall be avenged, i.e. God will require of him to repent or suffer the consequences. If the slave survives, means the sin was committed unwillingly, accidentally or perhaps out of human weakness, then he can be forgiven without repercussions. Anger is useful (money) to the mind in fighting off temptations and desire in striving after what is good and holy.

Indeed :)

Ty, what is a gentile slave?

 

[Vince]

In the old days a person needed to become a servant sometimes to survive. A Hebrew slave was given the choice after 7 years to either take his freedom or become a bond-servant to the householder.

Ok, should that decision to become a slave entitle the owner to beat the slave as long as they don't die within 48 hours?

Using your very limited and biased understanding here shows how bourgeois your judgment is. It is like a rich spoiled kid judging the problems of the world.

Nope. Would you like to be the slave that can get beaten at any time if god willed that for you?

 

[Episkopos]

Ok, should that decision to become a slave entitle the owner to beat the slave as long as they don't die within 48 hours?

Nope. Would you like to be the slave that can get beaten at any time if god willed that for you?

What about bullying at school...or genocide, you haven't mentioned those yet. People are cruel because they lack a relationship with God, who is love. We were created to love Him and one another. But people have chosen to go their own way. Is it any surprise that men should be reduced to such lack by rejecting the Most High?

if you are not walking in God's love then you are part of the problem you are complaining about. And that is hypocrisy.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ok, should that decision to become a slave entitle the owner to beat the slave as long as they don't die within 48 hours?

Nope. Would you like to be the slave that can get beaten at any time if god willed that for you?

ha so the religious are in bad enough shape,, and you only wish you were one of them I guess

 

[Vince]

I will try to explain, but remember, I warned you that this is complex beyond what is considered human. In these matter you are like a toddler expecting to take the wheel of a jet. And the appropriate answer is rightly "Ask your father", or "Wait until you are older." Or worse, you're 35 and need to be told to "Grow up." So, yes, we can talk, but you will learn nothing by maintaining that attitude.

Cannot god make it clear to us immature atheists?


1.

The object of slavery is not to free the slaves in the way that you have purposed. The object is to free people like you who are virtually asleep and have not woken up to the reality of eternal slavery and the consequence of going against God. It is people like you who have not learned. You are the reason the world continues to experience slavery. Sorry, grown up answer. You asked for it.

This is gibberish nonsense. And you have not explained one thing. How does a rule that an owner can beat a slave to death (just not immediately) thousands of years ago free me from some spiritual slavery? Where is your supporting evidence for this claim? Is it in the bible?

2. I am not refusing to educate you. It is I who am being refused.

More gibberish nonsense. Why is it when Christians are asked why god allowed beating of slaves to death they get all philosophical and cannot make reasoned arguments?

3. & 4. You misunderstand (and I told you so). Pleas pay more attention. The God-given laws regarding slavery, are his way of saying, "If you insist on do your mischief, take it outside...and no hitting below the belt!" Which he does to limit the abuses we would otherwise indulge in.

How does beating a slave so they don't die immediately but is OK after 2 days limiting abuses of slaves? Why didn't god anywhere in the bible just say something like "Don't make slaves of one another". Why is this issue so different than other issues he made direct commands for? He says don't lie but makes no special rules for lying.

But to understand the seemingly unfair differences between the master and the slave, you simply aren't ready for - but, again, you asked for it: The answer is, all of this is no more real than painted-on blood in a animated cartoon. On the contrary, God is real. And yet, if this is your only reference point, and you have not determined that everything that is not right in the world points to some greater meaning about the actually reality of life...then you would never know for lack of perception.

What does this mean?

But no one is blaming you. Parents don't tell their children tales of Santa Claus, etc., to keep them in the dark or lie to them, they do it because they love them and want to give them the time they need to come into the greater realities of life. But...on the other hand, if you in your teens, and still in that adolescent place thinking you want to make a home of never, never land...then, this is on you. At some point you are suppose to have a talk with your parents...but if you deny your parents, again, it's on you. Your perspective has made you blind.

Give me sufficient evidence that god exists then maybe you have a point here.

5. The actual slavery that the common slavery known to man only depicts, is the reason for the common slavery. It is merely the antidote. When you have all the information, when you come to know the whole truth, then you will come to realize that the tale of Santa Claus was an antidote to being nice rather than naughty. Likewise, this unreality slavery antidote (among other things) is in place to show the difference between life and death eternal. In other words, slavery is to freedom, what life without God is to life with God. The one is death, while the other is life. In other words, unbeknownst to us, we chose life without God thinking it too was life, and yet it ends in death. This entire human experience of waiting until that day when we die, is to show us that it is in fact not life at all...during which time, we can opt back into life with God.

So the people that are the ones being owned and beaten is to teach me a lesson about how to live? This also depends on the reality that god exists.

 

[Vince]

Sounds like you find rules offensive.

Glory to God,
Taken

No, I find rules for one person to beat another and own them offensive.

 

[Vince]

Where are you getting God directed men to BEAT slaves?

Glory to God,
Taken

He gave them rules so they could if they wanted to. God also did not give any guidelines for what reasons an owner can beat a slave.

 

[Vince]

Before I provide any answer to your question, please say why your philosophy of life demonstrates that slavery is wrong?

I reason my morals from a position of well being, the golden rule and situational ethics. Generally stated actions that cause unnecessary harm or suffering to another are morally wrong, actions that increase their well being are morally right. So this is an objective standard to compare moral actions to. If I go over and hit you on the head with a hammer because I wanted to that would be morally wrong. If I helped you after someone else hit you on the head that would be morally right. Now we know that life is complicated and a lot of situations are not this clear cut. But with reason and an objective morality defined we can talk through and find out what is the most morally right position.

As for this example of rules for beating a slave, I find no good justification for beating another human being in this situation. ScottA does. But his objective standard is different than mine. Is the well being of the slave enhanced by the beating? Remember, god does not give any guidelines on for what reasons the owner can beat the slave, only rules here on how to do it. Would you like to be the slave in this situation?

 

[Vince]

Is the person owning or beating the slave sinning if we are to love others as our equal?

I don't believe in sin. I believe in right and wrong actions. I am not sure what you are asking.

 

[Vince]

I haven't read ahead yet but my guess is he will not. Religious ppl seek facts and proof from the Bible, Vince, but It was surely written on a different level. So, I don't mean to intrude or get involved here ok, but you are not even asking the right q i guess.

You might choose a "claim" that you feel is unsupported or don't agree with the interpretation of maybe, but if you are intent upon reading about literal slaves I guess it won't serve you much anyway.

The context is clear that these are rules for real slaves.

 

[Vince]

What about bullying at school...or genocide, you haven't mentioned those yet. People are cruel because they lack a relationship with God, who is love. We were created to love Him and one another. But people have chosen to go their own way. Is it any surprise that men should be reduced to such lack by rejecting the Most High?

You are changing the subject. The subject is about gods rules for owning and beating slaves. I don't find rules from god that promote bullying at school, I do for genocide but that is another topic.

if you are not walking in God's love then you are part of the problem you are complaining about. And that is hypocrisy.

Nope, demonstrate with sufficient evidence that god exists and then we can talk. I am not part of the problem, I did not write rules for owning and beating slaves, your god did. You seem to want to ignore that fact.

 

[Dave L]

I don't believe in sin. I believe in right and wrong actions. I am not sure what you are asking.

According to God nobody has right actions for the right reason. So when I ask "Is the person owning or beating the slave sinning if we are to love others as our equal?" It would mean "are those right actions according to how we treat ourselves?"

 

[Episkopos]

You are changing the subject. The subject is about gods rules for owning and beating slaves. I don't find rules from god that promote bullying at school, I do for genocide but that is another topic.

Nope, demonstrate with sufficient evidence that god exists and then we can talk. I am not part of the problem, I did not write rules for owning and beating slaves, your god did. You seem to want to ignore that fact.

You have a real problem. You want to blame a god you say doesn't exist. So then your problem is in your own mind.

 

[bbyrd009]

The context is clear that these are rules for real slaves.

Vince, if you want to believe that then I am not trying to change your mind, ok, but I suggest that pretty much every word ppl read is in a context other than that which one would "naturally" assume, based upon "hide wisdom from the wise" and some other passages.

Note that you found the vv with a preconceived context already in mind?
Hence "the context is clear," right.
You know who else insists "the context is clear" Vince?
ya.

So wadr I'll stick with "I actually don't have the first clue about what the context is, but a good first guess is the opposite of whatever some believer is insisting that it is" for now anyway.

 

[Taken]

Where are you getting God directed men to BEAT slaves?

Glory to God,
Taken

He gave them rules so they could if they wanted to. God also did not give any guidelines for what reasons an owner can beat a slave.

LOL. So your point is...RULES being made to Govern an Issue; (in this case Slavery) means, IF one is a slave OWNER, they can make up your own rules and beat the hell out of a slave?

Is that how it worked in your house-hold?

For example, say you made rules for the kids to not go in the street....but one of the kids could ignore your rules and make up their own rule, that they could push their sibling into the street...
And you are the one that should be chastized for not making a rule to not push a sibling into the street?

Taken

 

[Vince]

According to God nobody has right actions for the right reason. So when I ask "Is the person owning or beating the slave sinning if we are to love others as our equal?" It would mean "are those right actions according to how we treat ourselves?"

I would say no.