IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[David in NJ]

I don't know what hyper Pauline is, but it makes me think someone who does not like the apostle Paul's teachings.

hyper Pauline is when they say that Paul preached a different gospel to the Gentiles = thus separating the Body of Christ

they are 'hyper' focused on pre-trib so they MUST have two different gospels = one for the Jew and one for the Gentile

 

[Scott Downey]

Peter, John and James also spoke of post-trib deliverance

You find Paul's teaching on this in 2 Thess 1, where our gathering to Christ, is coming after the revealing of antichrist to the world, not before the revealing
Paul tells us to beware, not be deceived about this. The deception is the pre trib rapture
He writes a strong word here, meaning the Spirit had emphasized to Paul there would be a strong end time deception regarding the return of Christ.

I also am thinking he was concerned church people would think they had missed the Day of the Lord. So Paul sets certain conditions that must occur before our gathering to Christ.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[David in NJ]

You find Paul's teaching on this in 2 Thess 1, where our gathering to Christ, is coming after the revealing of antichrist to the world, not before the revealing
Paul tells us to beware, not be deceived about this. The deception is the pre trib rapture
He writes a strong word here, meaning the Spirit had emphasized to Paul there would be a strong end time deception regarding the return of Christ.

I also am thinking he was concerned church people would think they had missed the Day of the Lord. So Paul sets certain conditions that must occur before our gathering to Christ.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,

2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

the Holy Spirit showed the same to me as to you from the Word

my dilemma was that i always tried to show them from the scriptures

there are brothers/sisters in Christ who do not speak to me because of their obedience to pre-trib

 

[amigo de christo]

I don't know what hyper Pauline is, but it makes me think someone who does not like the apostle Paul's teachings.

While its true some people do NOT like the writings of paul
Let us beware of any pauline movement . many are under the influence
and it darn sure aint the influence of the SPIRIT as paul was under either .
Paul had rebuked this people who say OH We dont heed the gospel of Christ , or peter
PAUL preached the gospel we need .
NO . THEY ACTUALLY ALL PREACHED THE SAME GOSPEL . that is a fact .
Too many for far too long have sat under the wrong men and bought the wrong stuff .
In fact i would easily say , ANY LETTER of ANY apostel written
as well as all four gospels , as well as acts , as well as revelation , IS JUST AS TRUE AND NEEDFUL TODAY
as it ever was back then . And that all things written were written to
THE JESUS CHRIST BELIEVING CHURCH which just happened to consist of those who were gentile born and jewish born
BUT NOW ARE ONE IN CHRIST JESUS
Because THEY BELEIVE IN CHRIST JESUS and love the truth and dont go around trying
to pit apostle against apostel , doctrine against doctrine . THEY simply BELEIVE what is written .
Pretty simple if ya ask me . VERY very simple it truly is . MAN complicated it and turned it into a mess .

 

[amigo de christo]

the Holy Spirit showed the same to me as to you from the Word

my dilemma was that i always tried to show them from the scriptures

there are brothers/sisters in Christ who do not speak to me because of their obedience to pre-trib

this sheep has a lot who claim by mouth to LOVE GOD , LOVE CHRIST
who wont speak to me and put me on ignore and etc
DUE to The fact that while they can claim to LOVE GOD , LOVE CHRIST
they darn sure dont have much love at all FOR HIS OWN INSPIRED WORDS OF TRUTH .
proving in effect they FOLLOW another jesus .
THIS will get only far worse too .
Soon if a man even dares to touch their golden bull of this unifying force of what
they so darn highly beleive is GOD and love , FRIEND they gonna kill ya , or at least have
the governing authorities arrest and detain you and Put many to death .
ONE thing is for sure , YOU TOUCH A MANS SIN , YOU EXPOSE what HE LOVES MOST
and friend HE will hate thee . pat him on the back and say all is well , AND he will love thee
BUT then when one stands before GOD dont be suprised to hear I NEVER KNEW YOU
YOU WHO LED YOUR OWN brethren down to their own destruction and would not correct their sin and or error .
This world AINT gonna love us at all david . And hate us it do and will do so even more so
AND we all know what hates leads too , MURDER . the total eradication of anything that did not conform
to what man , humanity and the lost religons so desired to beleive was GOD and HIS LOVE .
only yoo hoo everyone , ITS THE DEVIL leading all into great hatred , making the nations VERY angry
against GOD , CHRIST and the faithful saints WHO DID NOT , WOULD NOT bend the knee to A LIE but
stood firm on THE SOLID STONE OF CHRIST and HIS words they did love and embrace .
We have not yet resisted sin unto blood , BUT mark my words , THEM days are a coming
And they never gonna see it as the great tribulation david .
THEY gonna see it as one thing , A DIRE NECESSITY to rid the earth of all these dangerous haters of
what THEY THINK is GOD , love , humanity . satan is slick aint he
BUT THANKS BE TO GOD , TO HIS CHRIST
the sheep dont heed the voice of the stranger selling his sorry love song that led to such great rebelllion
against THE ONLY CHRIST who could have saved them . Not looking too good within christendom
and this world at all my friend . A lie to merge the decieved to be as one mind and one heart
HAS MASSIVELY now taken over many places , hearts and minds to lead them all to the lie
and to the second death at the DAY OF THE LORD .

 

[Scott Downey]

While its true some people do NOT like the writings of paul
Let us beware of any pauline movement . many are under the influence
and it darn sure aint the influence of the SPIRIT as paul was under either .
Paul had rebuked this people who say OH We dont heed the gospel of Christ , or peter
PAUL preached the gospel we need .
NO . THEY ACTUALLY ALL PREACHED THE SAME GOSPEL . that is a fact .
Too many for far too long have sat under the wrong men and bought the wrong stuff .
In fact i would easily say , ANY LETTER of ANY apostel written
as well as all four gospels , as well as acts , as well as revelation , IS JUST AS TRUE AND NEEDFUL TODAY
as it ever was back then . And that all things written were written to
THE JESUS CHRIST BELIEVING CHURCH which just happened to consist of those who were gentile born and jewish born
BUT NOW ARE ONE IN CHRIST JESUS
Because THEY BELEIVE IN CHRIST JESUS and love the truth and dont go around trying
to pit apostle against apostel , doctrine against doctrine . THEY simply BELEIVE what is written .
Pretty simple if ya ask me . VERY very simple it truly is . MAN complicated it and turned it into a mess .

About Jew and Gentile they are both baptized by one Spirit into one body.
Written by Paul to teach the church

1 Cor 12
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink [g]into one Spirit.

14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.

 

[amigo de christo]

hyper Pauline is when they say that Paul preached a different gospel to the Gentiles = thus separating the Body of Christ

they are 'hyper' focused on pre-trib so they MUST have two different gospels = one for the Jew and one for the Gentile

And how common this my friend .
Any time we show the proof of their error
THEIR replay button is to parrot out OH well that was fOR THE JEW
or Etc . Yeah , oops and NOPE . this sheep dont buy a lie .
But men do this with many things my friend .
One can easily show a man his sin , his error
but if that man SO LOVES HIS SIN , HIS ERROR
well , carnal minds and the things of GOD dont mix . IN fact
i would say THE carnal mind cannot even recieve the things of GOD . course paul said it first .
SO what does this prove . WHERE IS THE SPIRIT .
WHY do i see so many who cliam to BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
yet darn sure dont seem to BELEIVE HIS WORDS .
I mean THE SPIRIT Leads US INTO TRUTH , NOT AGAINST TRUTH . we got problems david .
MANY have not THE SPIRIT
because many have NOT SUBMITTED TO GOD at all . THEY never did
they at most submitted to another version of GOD , of CHRIST . and well that version wont be saving them .

 

[Scott Downey]

And how common this my friend .
Any time we show the proof of their error
THEIR replay button is to parrot out OH well that was fOR THE JEW
or Etc . Yeah , oops and NOPE . this sheep dont buy a lie .
But men do this with many things my friend .
One can easily show a man his sin , his error
but if that man SO LOVES HIS SIN , HIS ERROR
well , carnal minds and the things of GOD dont mix . IN fact
i would say THE carnal mind cannot even recieve the things of GOD . course paul said it first .
SO what does this prove . WHERE IS THE SPIRIT .
WHY do i see so many who cliam to BELEIVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST
yet darn sure dont seem to BELEIVE HIS WORDS .
I mean THE SPIRIT Leads US INTO TRUTH , NOT AGAINST TRUTH . we got problems david .
MANY have not THE SPIRIT
because many have NOT SUBMITTED TO GOD at all . THEY never did
they at most submitted to another version of GOD , of CHRIST . and well that version wont be saving them .

As Paul says, there is not another Gospel, Paul says some pervert the gospel.
The personal true knowledge of God comes through spiritual revelation from God, and not from any other source.
It is the anointing you have from the Spirit to know the truth and continue to abide in Christ as 1 John 2 teaches
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

The ones who do not continue in the truth, have no such inner guide from the Father to know the things of God, they are antichrists.
They depart from Christ, they depart from the Living God.
May God grant them repentance to know the truth, otherwise they will never know.
Christ said HE WILL BUILD HIS CHURCH.

John 6

Many Disciples Turn Away​

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”


Galatians 1

Greeting​

1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me,

To the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Only One Gospel​

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert[a] the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be [b]accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Call to Apostleship​

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

****************
I love the way Paul has written this about His own conversion.
Paul said His own life's testimony was as a pattern for those who would believe in Christ.
Jesus Himself taught us we must be granted by the Father to come to Him and be saved, for by grace you are saved.
Of this both Christ and Paul have established a firm foundation of the truth, only those granted to know Christ will have an anointing from the Father to continue to abide in the Father and the Son, and that is often an unpopular message!
John 6 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you?

But I will continue on with the truth of Christ when opportunity is given to me.
*****************
1 Timothy 1

Glory to God for His Grace​

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an [d]insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to [e]God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

[keithr]

STAY with this TRUTH my Brother in Christ and your will SEE that pre-trib NEVER came out of the Mouth of God

Jesus spoke and taught 'post trib' for sure.
Paul did too.

They would know.

I recommend that you watch this video - 3 Undeniable Reasons the Rapture is Pre-Trib. Then you will see that your statements are wrong.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 (WEB):

(9) For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,​

(10) who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.​

(11) Therefore exhort one another, and build each other up, even as you also do.​

 

[Scott Downey]

I recommend that you watch this video - 3 Undeniable Reasons the Rapture is Pre-Trib. Then you will see that your statements are wrong.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 (WEB):

(9) For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,​

(10) who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.​

(11) Therefore exhort one another, and build each other up, even as you also do.​

at 27 minutes in, one will be taken and one left.
And he super quickly says taken into the sky.
This is wrong
Luke 17
31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his [i]goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Same word from Christ in Matthew 24
Matthew 24:28
For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

Carcass is a corpse. The ones taken are killed.

Of course, taken is a word that implies gathered, some are gathered to destruction and some to the Lord.
The guys argument is bogus to say the eagles fly into heaven are the saints being raptured when it has to do with the dead carcasses eaten by birds of prey as in their destruction.

 

[Scott Downey]

We know Christians will not be harmed by the wrath of God, they will be preserved from wrath.
But not necessarily from the wrath of Satan.
Survivors come out of the great tribulation, some were killed by the beast world system.
These survivors are believers, Christians.
And they went through the great tribulation
There was no pretrib rapture for these Christians.

Revelation 7

A Multitude from the Great Tribulation​

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, [b]“Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to [c]living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

 

[Scott Downey]

The end times at the last of the last days, unsaved men will be under a super strong delusion, sent on them by God because they refused to love the truth and be saved. So, repentance for the unbeliever in this time is not being granted by the Lord, seems to me.

Which tells us those who went through this great tribulation and are saved, were saved likely before the strong delusion had been sent by God on unbelievers. We were all unbelievers at one time until God revealed His Son in us, the hope of glory. The people of the end, will not love the truth, they are sealed into destruction, there is no repentance. Meaning if they are under this strong delusion at the end, they are not going to be repenting, God's purpose is for them to be condemned. That requires the saved ones, who went through the great tribulation, must have been saved before that strong delusion was sent on unbelievers by God, and that can only then be that they are the church.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Example of this, think about this

2 Thessalonians 2
New King James Version
The Great Apostasy

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Scott Downey]

As for the saved, Paul teaches us this, Paul directly contrasts saved versus the whacked wicked here and that God saved some.
And this is written for their time and ours, whereas the verses above regarding the wicked, is written about the destiny of unbelievers who entered into the last days unsaved.

13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.

 

[Scott Downey]

Rev 7
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”

14 And I said to him, [b]“Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,
"and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Definitely meaning they are Christians.
Have you also washed your robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb today?

I hope so, for today is the day of salvation, do not wait for tomorrow which may not come for you.

 

[David in NJ]

I recommend that you watch this video - 3 Undeniable Reasons the Rapture is Pre-Trib. Then you will see that your statements are wrong.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 (WEB):

(9) For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,​

(10) who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.​

(11) Therefore exhort one another, and build each other up, even as you also do.​

I have heard every angle there is and it is always man-made reasons that are not in scripture.

Post the 3 reasons and you will SEE when compared to scripture.

 

[Scott Downey]

I have heard every angle there is and it is always man-made reasons that are not in scripture.

Post the 3 reasons and you will SEE when compared to scripture.

Video makes claims on wrath of God killing massive numbers of people in the last days, and if believers were on earth, then they would be feeling the wrath of God. Maybe as collateral damage!
Then Noah and Lot, how God rescued them and condemned the world, duh, of course.
When Christ comes, He rescues us from this evil age too and destroys the wicked world
And the eagles and the body, which he says the body is the church.

None of this is new, it is what all pretribbers say.

 

[rebuilder 454]

what if i told you that men had deceived this people .
What if i told you that what many were taught as pre trib was wrong
But used as a glove they did the version of the wrath of GOD
to include the wrath of the beast .
CAUSE THEY DID THAT .
You see IN THIS WORLD we will have tribulations
What we DONT have to endure is THE WRATH OF GOD
that cometh to DESTROY the wicked , those who loved a lie , those who worshipped the beast , its image
and heeded the FALSE prophet and its false prophets .
The very voices that CONVINCED the world in a last hour moment
to rid the earth of the sheep , of which many of the sheep WILL BLEED .
We are delivered from THE WRATH OF GOD , not of men .
The sooner folks realize that the better .
The beast cometh against the saints , not the left behind , but the SAINTS
The wrath of GOD cometh against those who followed said beast and thus put to death the saints .
OH but they wont never see it like that . OH NO sir . NO SIR rebuilder,
WHEN They come for men like me and the true who would not conform
GUESS what most all of christendom and its lovey do merged religoins and peoples will beleive .
THIS
Oh this are but dangerous terrorists , haters , fundamentals who are a threat to global peace n safety .
OH YEAH WE BEING DUPED BIG TIME . Intefaith IS of ANTI CHRIST and both sides getting played big time .

...except the AC kills all the saints.
The BIBLE says "ALL TAKE THE MARK".
factor that in.

Btw...Paul classified those born again.
*Babies
*Mature
*Carnal.
* Spiritual

They can be carnal, and still saved. Paul addresses this in 1 cor.

 

[Scott Downey]

2 Thessalonians 1 also quashes hard a notion of a pretrib rapture.
There is no such thing mentioned.
Just that events show Christ's return for His people and at the that time all the wicked are destroyed in a fiery destruction

Which simply tells you the wicked and the righteous are on the earth together until the return of Christ.

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I have heard every angle there is and it is always man-made reasons that are not in scripture.

Post the 3 reasons and you will SEE when compared to scripture.

If you will not listen to reason, then yes , apply your formula.

Just keep in mind that In any investigation, going with impossibilities, that could have been noted and shelved , brings you into a rabbit trail 100%of the time.
Postrib rapture is a excellent example of ignoring the impossible.

Once the impossibilities are on the table, the debate is over

 

[Scott Downey]

...except the AC kills all the saints.
The BIBLE says "ALL TAKE THE MARK".
factor that in.

Btw...Paul classified those born again.
*Babies
*Mature
*Carnal.
* Spiritual

They can be carnal, and still saved. Paul addresses this in 1 cor.

2 Thess 1, wicked and righteous are on the earth at Christ's second coming

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

As far as antichrist kills all, that does not agree with scripture.
If you do not take the mark, you are killed, but see this does not have to be immediate like you are thinking.
Were all holocaust Jews immediately killed or did some survive?
It is the same thing, quite possible, admit it you do not know the future like you think.
Plus, the AC has to have you in his control in order to kill you., some areas are remote and self sustaining, even though of course life would be hard.