The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Laish]

There are two questions here:

Ok cool .

1) Calvinism vs not

Still not getting this one

2) What happens to a person who has never heard of Christ during this life?

The scriptures state it clearly

1. John 14:6 – Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
2. Acts 4:12 – And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved
3. Rom. 3:22 – The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: . Its thru faith in Jesus trusting in the finished Work of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior! Blessings. Bill

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Ok cool .

Note: it is question #1 which is the topic of this thread. Not #2.

Still not getting this one

Does a person accept Christ's gift of salvation? A gift Christ offers to all.
Or does salvation forced* on some people and not for others?

* Or whatever word you want to use here. A person choosing to accept it has nothing to do with it.

 

[Laish]

Does a person accept Christ's gift of salvation? A gift Christ offers to all.
Or does salvation forced* on some people and not for others?

Is the gift offered to all ? Again millions have never heard .
As for the remark is salvation forced it is not . We were considered dead in our sin sons of disobedience by nature children of wrath before we came to faith.
It is by God’s mercy and love that we were made alive.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Blessings
Bill

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Blasphemy is become so the vogue it is playing halo-hoop around the temples of Christians' heads.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

What happens to a person who has never heard of Christ during this life?

What business is it of yours or mine? Will you ask God your 'question' garbed accusation?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn

Defend the Bible? I would as soon defend a lion! Unchain it and it will defend itself.
C. H. Spurgeon
I wish it were the same with sound doctrine though.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Note: it is question #1 which is the topic of this thread. Not #2.

Does a person accept Christ's gift of salvation? A gift Christ offers to all.
Or does salvation forced* on some people and not for others?

* Or whatever word you want to use here. A person choosing to accept it has nothing to do with it.

No person is saved by choice. You need to get past this false assumption. James 1:18. John 1:13. These texts clearly show we are not saved via our determination, will, or choice. There are more texts.

 

[Enoch111]

ust for instance a area called the 10 40 window is nearly untouched it cross countries oceans and islands where folks have not even heard the name Jesus . Or if they have it’s the Jesus in the Koran.

When the persecution and killing of Christians is taking place daily in those very regions, how can anyone say that they have not heard of Christ and Christianity? Muslims know that Jesus is mentioned in the Koran, but they also know that He is mentioned in the Bible. For quite some time now, the Bible has been available freely in every language. So they are without excuse. In any event people make conscious choices about what they will believe and what they will not.

Every Calvinist -- if he or she is honest with themselves -- must admit that they had to make a conscious choice to either believe on the Lord Jesus Christ or not (just like Agrippa).

 

[Enoch111]

No person is saved by choice. You need to get past this false assumption.

And yet all of Spurgeon's sermons tell his audience that they must make a conscious choice, or they have made a conscious choice!

'Well, then, are you not desirous to live in a state of bliss? Oh, may God grant you grace to turn to him with full purpose of heart! [CONSCIOUS CHOICE] Come, guilty sinner, come! God help you to come, and I shall be well repaid, if but one soul be added to the visible fold of Jesus, through aught I may have said.'
A Caution to the Presumptuous

'And now, my dear friends, solemnly and earnestly, as in the sight of God, I appeal to you. You are gathered here this morning, I know, from different motives; some of you have come from curiosity; others of you are my regular hearers; some have come from one place and some from another. What have you heard me say this morning? I have told you of two classes of persons who reject Christ; the religionist, who has a religion of form and nothing else; and the man of the world, who calls our gospel foolishness. [CONSCIOUS CHOICE]
Christ Crucified

 

[Phoneman777]

You know, Phoneman, I hate to think that is true. But from what I see, it's tough to dispute.

Heavy sigh!

Very lamentable.

 

[Mjh29]

Unbelievable, so now we are not allowed to give opinions?? Now, if I did not put "JMO" in there, it would have been presumptions. We ALL have opinions. Your own beliefs come from the opinions of others interpretations!
I'm so happy that God is nothing like you people. I don't understand why you just don't just go to a Calvinistic board.

Largely because the Calvinistic boards don't need evangelizing

 

[Phoneman777]

Over 40% will never live in a location to hear or have the opportunity.
Of those that do live in a place where the word is spread roughly 60 % of them will hear it so not every one has a opportunity.
Blessings
Bill

Bill, the same Spirit that led millions to repentance before the first Israelite was born is the same Spirit that speaks to those dwelling in the most remote places on Earth, as both the Old and New Testament declares:

Zechariah 13:6 --

And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends.​

Romans 2:14-15 --

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...​

 

[Phoneman777]

Largely because the Calvinistic boards don't need evangelizing

If there was ever a group of people who needed to be shown their error of mixing up the unfair, unjust, control-freakism character of Lucifer with the gentle, just, unimposing character of God and His all-encompassing offer of grace to all who have ears to hear, it is Calvinists.

 

[Dave L]

If there was ever a group of people who needed to be shown their error of mixing up the unfair, unjust, control-freakism character of Lucifer with the gentle, just, unimposing character of God and His all-encompassing offer of grace to all who have ears to hear, it is Calvinists.

Have you ever scrutinized the image of God presented by free will advocates? They depict him as an unstable bully who threatens to torture people forever if they don't say "uncle". And then tries to buy them off with promises of eternal pleasure if they do. And this not only depicts a false god scripture knows nothing of. It reduces those who comply to the level of hookers who sell their souls for profit.

God on the other hand is merciful and took the punishment for many who could not reconcile themselves to him, reconciling them instead in Christ. The rest he left to their sins that they love more than they love others and Him.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

If there was ever a group of people who needed to be shown their error of mixing up the unfair, unjust, control-freakism character of Lucifer with the gentle, just, unimposing character of God and His all-encompassing offer of grace to all who have ears to hear, it is Calvinists.

You're nothing more than Romans 9:20 on display.

 

[Mjh29]

If there was ever a group of people who needed to be shown their error of mixing up the unfair, unjust, control-freakism character of Lucifer with the gentle, just, unimposing character of God and His all-encompassing offer of grace to all who have ears to hear, it is the Calvinist.

If any of this were taught in Scriptures, I would be inclined to agree. However, it is not. Not only does Scripture deny this 'Christ died for all', but simple logic suffices to see this as well [though, Scriptures are enough for me]

Scriptures:
Belief is granted to men. If the point of the Cross is to save all, why did God not grant belief to everyone?
~ Philippians 1:29
~ Titus 2:14
~ John 6:35-40
~ John 10:24-29

Why does Jesus not pray for everyone in the whole world, but rather for those the Father has given if His blood was to cover every sin of every man?
~John 17:1-11
~John 17:20
~John 17:24-26

Passages speaking of Christ's work being for a particular people:
~ Matthew 1:21
~ Matthew 20:28
~ Matthew 26:28
~ John 10:11
~ John 11:50-53
~ Ephesians 5:25-27
~ Romans 8:32-34
~ Hebrews 2:17
~Hebrews 3:1
~ Hebrews 9:15
~ Hebrews 9:28

Logic:

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

To explain the final point a bit further, Unbelief is either a sin or it is not. If it is a sin, did Christ not die for the penalty of this sin as well? If He did, then all are in Heaven, and if He did not, His blood was limited in it's effectiveness.

If unbelief is not a sin, then there is no punishment for it and therefore all men are in Heaven.

Even logically, Christ could not have died for all the sins of all men ever, because if He did then all men will be in Heaven, Christian or not.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

If any of this were taught in Scriptures, I would be inclined to agree. However, it is not. Not only does Scripture deny this 'Christ died for all', but simple logic suffices to see this as well [though, Scriptures are enough for me]

Scriptures:
Belief is granted to men. If the point of the Cross is to save all, why did God not grant belief to everyone?
~ Philippians 1:29
~ Titus 2:14
~ John 6:35-40
~ John 10:24-29

Why does Jesus not pray for everyone in the whole world, but rather for those the Father has given if His blood was to cover every sin of every man?
~John 17:1-11
~John 17:20
~John 17:24-26

Passages speaking of Christ's work being for a particular people:
~ Matthew 1:21
~ Matthew 20:28
~ Matthew 26:28
~ John 10:11
~ John 11:50-53
~ Ephesians 5:25-27
~ Romans 8:32-34
~ Hebrews 2:17
~Hebrews 3:1
~ Hebrews 9:15
~ Hebrews 9:28

Logic:

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

To explain the final point a bit further, Unbelief is either a sin or it is not. If it is a sin, did Christ not die for the penalty of this sin as well? If He did, then all are in Heaven, and if He did not, His blood was limited in it's effectiveness.

If unbelief is not a sin, then there is no punishment for it and therefore all men are in Heaven.

Even logically, Christ could not have died for all the sins of all men ever, because if He did then all men will be in Heaven, Christian or not.

2 Peter 1:1 is a scripture that Peter, without equivocation, and quite concisely shows that faith is obtained at salvation and is only to the elect. It is an impossibility that any came to Christ in their own faith. Such is utterly ridiculous and is denied.

So the elephant in the room is that the onus is on God. He grants this faith to those he saves. It is obtained from God. Not all men have faith; 2 Thessalonians 3:2.

Will these recant their teaching in light of Scripture? Not a chance, they will hold to their tradition over truth. Well perhaps there is a chance, only God knows. Certainly they can't free will themselves into truth; John 6:29; John 6:63; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Note also, every one of you, the faith by which the elect believe is the same power that raised Christ; Ephesians 1:19. It was therefore not innate, not inherent, but applied and granted by God. It comes to us from God; Romans 10:17.

Now, I fully expect you all to counter what God has granted by grace, take away the glory thereof and fight against it for what you did, to give yourself the glory. That is exactly what your gospel does.

 

[Phoneman777]

Have you ever scrutinized the image of God presented by free will advocates? They depict him as an unstable bully who threatens to torture people forever if they don't say "uncle". And then tries to buy them off with promises of eternal pleasure if they do. And this not only depicts a false god scripture knows nothing of. It reduces those who comply to the level of hookers who sell their souls for profit.

All you've done is prove that it's possible to misrepresent the character of God by several means.

God on the other hand is merciful and took the punishment for many who could not reconcile themselves to him, reconciling them instead in Christ.

Yes, the punishment of those who will be found having surrendered themselves to Him on Judgment Day.

The rest he left to their sins that they love more than they love others and Him.

Yes, every man found a sinner on Judgment Day will pay for his own sins.

 

[Dave L]

All you've done is prove that it's possible to misrepresent the character of God by several means.

Yes, the punishment of those who will be found having surrendered themselves to Him on Judgment Day.

Yes, every man found a sinner on Judgment Day will pay for his own sins.

You know fully well the butcher job "free will" does to the image of God.

 

[Phoneman777]

Answering these Calvinism "proof texts":

Philippians 1:29

This statement of fact that the saints have been "granted to believe" in no way - except by Calvinism's subjective reasoning - denies that others have been granted the same opportunity, but failed to improve it.

Titus 2:14

This statement of fact that Christ gave Himself for the saints in no way - except by Calvinism's subjective reasoning - denies the extension of the same opportunity to all people to become recipients of the same.

John 6:35-40

Christ's words "all that the Father hath sent Me" in no way - except by Calvinism's subjective reasoning - is intended to differentiate between "the specially chosen" and the "unclean, profane discarded", but attests to the truth of Romans 2:4 that "it is the goodness of God that leadeth thee (which is "every man" according to verse 6) to repentance", the destination of which is the foot of the Cross.
[John 10:24-29 [/QUOTE] Why does Jesus not pray for everyone in the whole world, but rather for those the Father has given if His blood was to cover every sin of every man? [/QUOTE] Because Christ cannot intercede for those who refuse to be lead "by the goodness of God...to repentance", which according to Romans 2:6 is "every man".

Passages speaking of Christ's work being for a particular people:
~ Matthew 1:21
~ Matthew 20:28
~ Matthew 26:28
~ John 10:11
~ John 11:50-53
~ Ephesians 5:25-27
~ Romans 8:32-34
~ Hebrews 2:17
~Hebrews 3:1
~ Hebrews 9:15
~ Hebrews 9:28

Here is nothing but affirmation that Christ's blood is not effectual for anyone but those who have been lead by the Father to Him (which according to Romans 2:6 is "every man") and chose to repent at the foot of the Cross and there's not a single verse denies the merits of Christ are not available to "all men"

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

The answer is 1, but only by repentance does His punishment benefit the sinner.

In which case it may be said:

Your failure to acknowledge the above condition renders whatever follows according to your line of reasoning unmentionable.