The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[SovereignGrace]

I'd have to say that's your take on the passage, just the same, those aren't the wordings used.

1 John 1:17-20
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

What if . . . "the whole world" meant "the whole world"?

Or, a much more serious question . . . what if it doesn't?

Where does it end that the Words God used don't actually mean what they say?

Jesus didn't ask for His disciples to be removed from the world, but that they would be protected from the evil. Because the whole world lies in wickedness.

Much love!

That’s not my take on the passage, that’s John’s teaching, as he wrote it under inspiration if the Holy Spirit.

 

[marks]

But we were in the world, world being the lost in proper context.

You keep limiting the "world" to the lost citing context, but I don't see contexts that do that.

We're dead to the world, and dead to our flesh. But we are still in our flesh, and still in the world. In our flesh nothing good lives, and the whole world lies in wickedness.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I sense true humility in your posts - humility is the absolute greatest attribute of our Lord and I so want to be like Him, but alas, I struggle immensely in this cursed body of flesh. If we can't love those who hate us, curse us, exploit us, and slander us, we're not Christians at all - we're nothing but baptized pagans.

Hi Phoneman,

Humility is good. Love is best. Both challenge us.

Much love!
Mark

 

[marks]

?? Not following here Marks. What does suffering in this life have to do with said doctrine? I'm sure I'm missing something here, do tend to that sometimes

Hi Nancy,

I'll come back to this if I don't see someone else's answer. But I want to give others a chance first. But remind me please if I forget.

Much love!
mark

 

[marks]

That’s not my take on the passage, that’s John’s teaching, as he wrote it under inspiration if the Holy Spirit.

Hi SG,

What I'm suggesting is, what if John actually meant the words he wrote, God actually speaking through him, the whole world, and the thought not modified by changing the meaning of whole to mean part?

Much love!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Oh, I know you guys really like Romans 9! And, I have gotten tneither "side" o know it pretty well, thanks to you all, lol. No, I do not see Limited Atonement in anything Paul say's. Nor do I see anything about Irresistible Grace. I name these two components because they, out of the 5 points, are the only ones that make me slam the breaks. I suppose we all should just leave this alone anymore, we are truly beating a dead horse Dave. There is so much more to learn and study about in that awesome Word of His...do you think it's time that we started a thread about something "new" that we can all argue about, lol! Seriously though, neither "side" is getting anywhere with all of this...I know I need a break from it and I sure hope to see some old faces on here, who have been gone to other forums because of the bickering and some, very nasty, name calling threads. Not saying you Dave...I don't see that attitude with you.
CAN'T WE JUST LOVE EACH OTHER!!!!!

There is not..TWO SIDES...only one. There is truth and error.
Some have it and are learning more about it. Others have a little and question and get some of it.
Others like several on here do not have it, despise the truth and are truth suppressors, who hate the revealed truth.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi SG,

What I'm suggesting is, what if John actually meant the words he wrote, God actually speaking through him, the whole world, and the thought not modified by changing the meaning of whole to mean part?

Much love!

The whole world, in proper context, means the lost. They’re the one lying in the power of the wicked one. The saved aren’t in that group.

 

[SovereignGrace]

He reminds me of a preacher who was so proud of being ignorant that he prayed to become more ignorant, and his prayer was granted.

God must have made a mistake in sending teachers, pastors &c to the church, Ephesians 4:11 to, um, teach them?

Try this on for size...I read this in my studying today...

Then King Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the forced labor, and all Israel stoned him to death. And King Rehoboam made haste to mount his chariot to flee to Jerusalem.[1 Kings 12:18]

By using their (il)logic, even newborn babes, those sucking on their mother’s breast, stoned Adoram. It says all Israel, and all means all, and that’s all that all means, so even suckling babes threw stones at Adoram.

 

[Nancy]

Rom 10:17, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Always loved the simplicity of that verse.

 

[marks]

?? Not following here Marks. What does suffering in this life have to do with said doctrine? I'm sure I'm missing something here, do tend to that sometimes

OK, no one seems to want to touch this one.

IF total depravity prevents any from choosing to receive Jesus and be reborn . . . If that is true, then what place has suffering?

It becomes yet more meaningless torment for the afflicted.

In the case of the person who will be born again, God declared that their lives have been predestined to be saved. So why make them suffer? If the salvation is a foregone conclusion, then why not simply tap their shoulders, and they are saved? And if the storyline is all written by God, why is it written with suffering? God can do anything He wants, and that's what He wants?

So God makes people to torture in this age, and in the ages to come. He made them that way, to do those things, and to suffer torment forever.

This is of course not what I believe.

I believe that suffering in us is to convince us of certain realities. That we need to be convinced. That God will go to amazing lengths to convince us of His love and faithfulness, or to do whatever needs to be done.

Let's dive foolishly into the hypothetical.

A man who, left to his own devices, would have been so self-absorbed, so successful, a self-made man, independant, no interest or will towards God.

But the same man, subjected to suffering, never achieves that life path, instead, becomes damaged, needy, unsuccessful, and ripe for salvation. And it is the time of his trouble, but he shall be saved through it, to borrow from Jeremiah.

Suffering has a reason, and that is to purge sin and perfect obedience. But that only applies if we are also making choices. Otherwise, the suffering is abritrary in an arbitrary life.

It could happen any way at all, if God chooses everything, and He's then chosen to make it hurt - bad - and for some, forever. And why? He could simply make those He wanted to live with Him, living with Him.

Of course I don't try to explain why God does what He does. But this is the God this doctrine paints, a God who delights in pain and suffering and death as the perfect performing of the full measure of His will.

A God who wants His creation to suffer, needlessly, in this life, and in death, and for eternity to come.

That is not the God of the Bible, who came into the world to free us from suffering and death.

I may suffer in the flesh, but because God has used all of these in my life to bring me to Himself, it's not without reason.

Much love!
mark

 

[marks]

May I ask where Paul taught Calvinism?

He didn't.

 

[Triumph1300]

Yes, Nancy, very simple.
But a lot of people make Christianity very complicated.
Legalism is alive and well in some denominations.

 

[Nancy]

Yes, Nancy, very simple.
But a lot of people make Christianity very complicated.
Legalism is alive and well in some denominations.

Hi Gary!
It sure is alive and well, even flourishing

 

[SovereignGrace]

OK, no one seems to want to touch this one.

IF total depravity prevents any from choosing to receive Jesus and be reborn . . . If that is true, then what place has suffering?

It becomes yet more meaningless torment for the afflicted.

In the case of the person who will be born again, God declared that their lives have been predestined to be saved. So why make them suffer? If the salvation is a foregone conclusion, then why not simply tap their shoulders, and they are saved? And if the storyline is all written by God, why is it written with suffering? God can do anything He wants, and that's what He wants?

So God makes people to torture in this age, and in the ages to come. He made them that way, to do those things, and to suffer torment forever.

This is of course not what I believe.

I believe that suffering in us is to convince us of certain realities. That we need to be convinced. That God will go to amazing lengths to convince us of His love and faithfulness, or to do whatever needs to be done.

Let's dive foolishly into the hypothetical.

A man who, left to his own devices, would have been so self-absorbed, so successful, a self-made man, independant, no interest or will towards God.

But the same man, subjected to suffering, never achieves that life path, instead, becomes damaged, needy, unsuccessful, and ripe for salvation. And it is the time of his trouble, but he shall be saved through it, to borrow from Jeremiah.

Suffering has a reason, and that is to purge sin and perfect obedience. But that only applies if we are also making choices. Otherwise, the suffering is abritrary in an arbitrary life.

It could happen any way at all, if God chooses everything, and He's then chosen to make it hurt - bad - and for some, forever. And why? He could simply make those He wanted to live with Him, living with Him.

Of course I don't try to explain why God does what He does. But this is the God this doctrine paints, a God who delights in pain and suffering and death as the perfect performing of the full measure of His will.

A God who wants His creation to suffer, needlessly, in this life, and in death, and for eternity to come.

That is not the God of the Bible, who came into the world to free us from suffering and death.

I may suffer in the flesh, but because God has used all of these in my life to bring me to Himself, it's not without reason.

Much love!
mark

Total depravity does, indeed, teach no one will receive the Christ and be reborn. You have the cause before the effect.

Those who receive have been born of Him.[John 1:13] Birth then receiving.
Those who love God have been born of God.[1 John 4:7] Birth then loving Him.

 

[Nancy]

OK, no one seems to want to touch this one.

IF total depravity prevents any from choosing to receive Jesus and be reborn . . . If that is true, then what place has suffering?

It becomes yet more meaningless torment for the afflicted.

In the case of the person who will be born again, God declared that their lives have been predestined to be saved. So why make them suffer? If the salvation is a foregone conclusion, then why not simply tap their shoulders, and they are saved? And if the storyline is all written by God, why is it written with suffering? God can do anything He wants, and that's what He wants?

So God makes people to torture in this age, and in the ages to come. He made them that way, to do those things, and to suffer torment forever.

This is of course not what I believe.

I believe that suffering in us is to convince us of certain realities. That we need to be convinced. That God will go to amazing lengths to convince us of His love and faithfulness, or to do whatever needs to be done.

Let's dive foolishly into the hypothetical.

A man who, left to his own devices, would have been so self-absorbed, so successful, a self-made man, independant, no interest or will towards God.

But the same man, subjected to suffering, never achieves that life path, instead, becomes damaged, needy, unsuccessful, and ripe for salvation. And it is the time of his trouble, but he shall be saved through it, to borrow from Jeremiah.

Suffering has a reason, and that is to purge sin and perfect obedience. But that only applies if we are also making choices. Otherwise, the suffering is abritrary in an arbitrary life.

It could happen any way at all, if God chooses everything, and He's then chosen to make it hurt - bad - and for some, forever. And why? He could simply make those He wanted to live with Him, living with Him.

Of course I don't try to explain why God does what He does. But this is the God this doctrine paints, a God who delights in pain and suffering and death as the perfect performing of the full measure of His will.

A God who wants His creation to suffer, needlessly, in this life, and in death, and for eternity to come.

That is not the God of the Bible, who came into the world to free us from suffering and death.

I may suffer in the flesh, but because God has used all of these in my life to bring me to Himself, it's not without reason.

Much love!
mark

There is not one thing I could/would add or subtract from what you've written. We are on the same page here, for sure Mark.

 

[Enoch111]

"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself."

How in the world can anyone be denying the Gospel by preaching the Gospel? The Gospel is indeed for "the natural man" -- the vilest sinners and evildoers -- the monsters. They are all commanded to repent, and they all know what that means. They are all commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and make Him their Lord and Savior, and they also know what that means.

When Peter preached to thousands of unsaved Jews on the day of Pentecost, he was preaching to the natural man. They were commanded to repent, AND ONLY THEN would they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now when they [THE UNSAVED JEWS] heard this, they were pricked in their heart [CONVICTED BY THE SPIRIT], and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:37,38)

Now the Calvinist would have you believe that what Peter should have really said is "You don't have to do anything. You have already received the gift of the Holy Ghost, therefore you will repent and be baptized". They claim that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they are converted, thus turning the Gospel on its head.

 

[Dave L]

How in the world can anyone be denying the Gospel by preaching the Gospel? The Gospel is indeed for "the natural man" -- the vilest sinners and evildoers -- the monsters. They are all commanded to repent, and they all know what that means. They are all commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and make Him their Lord and Savior, and they also know what that means.

When Peter preached to thousands of unsaved Jews on the day of Pentecost, he was preaching to the natural man. They were commanded to repent, AND ONLY THEN would they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Now when they [THE UNSAVED JEWS] heard this, they were pricked in their heart [CONVICTED BY THE SPIRIT], and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:37,38)

Now the Calvinist would have you believe that what Peter should have really said is "You don't have to do anything. You have already received the gift of the Holy Ghost, therefore you will repent and be baptized". They claim that sinners are regenerated BEFORE they are converted, thus turning the Gospel on its head.

You turn the gospel into law AND grace into works = a false gospel and false Christ.

 

[marks]

There is not one thing I could/would add or subtract from what you've written. We are on the same page here, for sure Mark.

Hi Nancy,

I think the next progression of thought is to understand the end-game for both of these doctrines.

On the total depravity/limited atonement side, God ends up with those He made to love Him. On the "whosoever" side, God ends up with those who want to love Him.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Dave L]

Hi Nancy,

I think the next progression of thought is to understand the end-game for both of these doctrines.

On the total depravity/limited atonement side, God ends up with those He made to love Him. On the "whosoever" side, God ends up with those who want to love Him.

Much love!
Mark

People only love idols and hate God unless he changes their hearts. “And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” (Deuteronomy 30:6)

If Calvin was right about him you and several others hate God with a passion.

 

[marks]

Total depravity does, indeed, teach no one will receive the Christ and be reborn. You have the cause before the effect.

Those who receive have been born of Him.[John 1:13] Birth then receiving.

John 1
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those who received Jesus, those who believed in His Name, to those Jesus gave the right to become God's children.

Receiving . . . believing . . . birth.

Those who love God have been born of God.[1 John 4:7] Birth then loving Him.

I didn't even know what love was really until I saw God's love at work in me.

Much love!
Mark