The Flawed Reasoning Of Total Depravity

[Nancy]

My problem is, if Calvin is right about God, most hate God.

I can see many, many who are simply indifferent to Him but, have yet to meet someone who "hates" God. Unless, you look at those as the same thing. Before I ever knew Him, I was always wondering about Him, what He is all about. As a kid, I just couldn't get over that He "always was"...ha! it's still an enigma but, I have it in it's proper place and, anymore it is just another of His crazy awesome wonders!

 

[justbyfaith]

We’re saved by grace, bruh. Faith is what is used in salvation, and that’s even God’s gift to the unregenerate. But it’s grace and grace alone that saves.

Hey, "bruh" , we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we are saved by grace through faith.

I'm not sure what it is about this that you don't understand. But just taking it as it is written in the English language, it is pretty clear to me that we cannot be saved apart from faith.

And to suggest that we can be is to present people with a false hope. Dare I say, "shame on you!".

 

[Nancy]

We’re saved by grace, bruh. Faith is what is used in salvation, and that’s even God’s gift to the unregenerate. But it’s grace and grace alone that saves.

What about Luke 7:50? "And he said unto the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."
Are we not saved by Grace through Faith? It just seems to me that the two work together.

 

[Nancy]

Hey, "bruh" , we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we are saved by grace through faith.

I'm not sure what it is about this that you don't understand. But just taking it as it is written in the English language, it is pretty clear to me that we cannot be saved apart from faith.

And to suggest that we can be is to present people with a false hope. Dare I say, "shame on you!".

Ha, I just posted pretty much the same thing

 

[Dave L]

I can see many, many who are simply indifferent to Him but, have yet to meet someone who "hates" God. Unless, you look at those as the same thing. Before I ever knew Him, I was always wondering about Him, what He is all about. As a kid, I just couldn't get over that He "always was"...ha! it's still an enigma but, I have it in it's proper place and, anymore it is just another of His crazy awesome wonders!

Most in the OT hated YAHWEH but thought they worshiped him. They made idols using his name and gave them credit for all that he did. And it's no different today. There are only 3 ways a person is thought to be saved. 1) People are saved by grace alone (Calvinism/Augustinianism). 2) People save themselves with God's help (Arminianism/semipelagianism). Or they save themselves without God's help (pelagianism/socinianism). Only one is true and scripture proves Calvinism correct in the matters of salvation by grace alone.

 

[justbyfaith]

Or, 4) God completely saves them as the result of their faith in Him.

 

[Dave L]

What about Luke 7:50? "And he said unto the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."
Are we not saved by Grace through Faith? It just seems to me that the two work together.

Faith comes from the Holy Spirit one must have before they can truly believe.

 

[Dave L]

Or, 4) God completely saves them as the result of their faith in Him.

= salvation by works of the flesh.

 

[justbyfaith]

= salvation by works of the flesh.

Faith is a work of the flesh?

I have to say that I see your understanding as warped to say the least.

 

[Dave L]

Faith is a work of the flesh?

I have to say that I see your understanding as warped to say the least.

flesh belief cannot save. And that is what you claim. True faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

May I ask where Paul taught Calvinism?

If you haven't found it yet you're not looking at Scripture correctly.

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith comes from the Holy Spirit one must have before they can truly believe.

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and the Holy Spirit comes in through the grace of the Lord.

Therefore you have grace coming in before faith, which presents two problems:

1) grace before faith presupposes that there is no necessity for faith in our salvation.

2) it is contradictory to the order that we are given in Romans 5:2 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[Dave L]

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and the Holy Spirit comes in through the grace of the Lord.

Therefore you have grace coming in before faith, which presents two problems:

1) grace before faith presupposes that there is no necessity for faith in our salvation.

2) it is contradictory to the order that we are given in Romans 5:2 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

You think flesh belief is faith. It is not, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

flesh belief cannot save. And that is what you claim. True faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Then people must be saved long enough to produce fruit before they can be saved through faith. An oxymoron.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hey, "bruh" , we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we are saved by grace through faith.

I'm not sure what it is about this that you don't understand. But just taking it as it is written in the English language, it is pretty clear to me that we cannot be saved apart from faith.

And to suggest that we can be is to present people with a false hope. Dare I say, "shame on you!".

And yet faith is a gift of God, and it’s given, not offered.

 

[Dave L]

Then must be saved long enough to produce fruit before they can be saved through faith. An oxymoron.

Flesh faith is really flesh belief that even the most wicked have. True faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What about Luke 7:50? "And he said unto the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."
Are we not saved by Grace through Faith? It just seems to me that the two work together.

Seeing that not everybody has faith, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, we know it comes from God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Flesh faith is really flesh belief that even the most wicked have. True faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Must a person be saved in order to bear fruit?

You have salvation coming before faith. However, this is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

 

[justbyfaith]

And yet faith is a gift of God, and it’s given, not offered.

This is based on a faulty understanding of Ephesians 2:8-9. In that passage, it should be clear that it is salvation that is not from ourselves and the gift of God; but that this is not referring to faith itself.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Must a person be saved in order to bear fruit?

You have salvation coming before faith. However, this is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

Faith and salvation happen simultaneously. One is not saved w/o having faith and no one having faith is not saved. They’re mutually inclusive.