So how are we seeing right now?

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amadeus

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Glass in the KJV:

e[soptron Esoptron (es'-op-tron);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 2072


  1. a mirror
    1. the mirrors of the ancients were made, not of glass, but steel
KJV Word Usage and Count
glass 2

Darkly in the KJV:


ai[nigma Ainigma (ah'-ee-nig-ma);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 135


  1. an obscure saying, enigma, riddle
  2. an obscure thing
KJV Word Usage and Count
darkly

Face in the KJV (from face to face):

provswpon Prosopon (pros'-o-pon);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 4383


  1. the face
    1. the front of the human head
    2. countenance, look
      1. the face so far forth as it is the organ of sight, and by it various movements and changes) the index of the inward thoughts and feelings
    3. the appearance one presents by his wealth or property, his rank or low condition
      1. outward circumstances, external condition
      2. used in expressions which denote to regard the person in one's judgment and treatment of men
  2. the outward appearance of inanimate things
KJV Word Usage and Count
face 55
person 7
presence 7
countenance 3
not translated 1
miscellaneous 5


To in the KJV (from face to face):
provß Pros (pros);
Word Origin: Greek, Preposition, Strong #: 4314


  1. to the advantage of
  2. at, near, by
  3. to, towards, with, with regard to
KJV Word Usage and Count
unto 340
to 203
with 43
for 25
against 24
among 20
at 11
not translated 6
miscellaneous 53
vr to 1


And then several Bible translations of a single verse from the writings of Apostle Paul:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12 [KJV]

"For we see now through a dim window obscurely, but then face to face; now I know partially, but then I shall know according as I also have been known." I Cor 13:12 [Darby]

"We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know I part; but then I shall know even as I am known." I Cor 13:12 [Douay Rheims]

"For the present we see things as if in a mirror, and are puzzled; but then we shall see them face to face. For the present the knowledge I gain is imperfect; but then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." I Cor 13:12 [Weymouth]

"Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; who then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." I Cor 13:12 [NIV]

"for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;" I Cor 13:12 [Young's]

Has anyone gone one up on Paul at the time of his writing with a "face to face" vision?
Remember that according to what God had Solomon write a thousand years before Jesus was born to Mary in Bethlehem a vison is quite necessary:


"Where there is no vision, the people perish... " Prov 29:18

I'll make no comments at the moment, but rather wait to se where others believe that they or we are now.
 
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Enoch111

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I'll make no comments at the moment, but rather wait to see where others believe that they or we are now.
I believe that what Paul was saying is that the written Word of God is a mirror which provides us with a reflection of Christ, but not Christ face-to-face in reality. Hence "darkly". But after the Resurrection/Rapture, when all the saints have been perfected and glorified, we shall see Christ as He is now. This is brought out in 1 John 3:1-3:

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

This is similar to you facing a mirror and your friend comes behind you and you see his reflection only. The reflection is fine, but it is only after your friend come beside you and you see him face-to-face that you actually meet your friend.
 

Episkopos

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I think we tend to see Paul like a Greek philosopher rather than someone who was describing simply what he was experiencing. The Jews are the most realistic and practical of people. Definitely not philosophical. That domain is for the Greeks.

Too often we read Paul as if he was issuing platitudes and aural impressions meant to stimulate religious imaginations. That is the way of degradation of the words of life.

No, Paul was simply trying to convey how spiritual senses...or faculties...work. In photography one focuses on a subject..whether in the foreground or background. If the object in the foreground is in focus, then the background will be fuzzy. Or it is the other way around.

What Paul is explaining is seeing in the Spirit...as fuzzy. That is the normal walk of someone who is in the Spirit. But as the focus changes to the clarity of the spiritual sense of sight...so then the world goes out of focus....so we can focus on what is eternal...beyond this world.

Now I realize that basically nobody understands what I'm talking about. But that is the way of it. The kingdom of God can be perceived by spiritual faculties...the most powerful of which is sight.

There are many NT verses...as well as OT verses that describe this....but it can only be understood by faith...unless one has experienced this.

So then if we are risen with Christ...and have entered into His life, we are admonished to keep our eyes (spiritual eyes) on things that are above (in the distance of the spiritual realm) so that it is the background that comes into focus.

There is another realm where God is already in glory. It is Zion. It is the kingdom of God. We are to seek to be in the midst of THIS realm through faith. To see as Jesus sees. To be in the light as He is in the light. His presence is through this present reality...by faith we penetrate through this world by letting go our carnal faculties...which are insufficient to walk in the immediate awareness of holiness.

I suppose it is quite impossible to explain. :)
 

CoreIssue

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I think we tend to see Paul like a Greek philosopher rather than someone who was describing simply what he was experiencing. The Jews are the most realistic and practical of people. Definitely not philosophical. That domain is for the Greeks.

Too often we read Paul as if he was issuing platitudes and aural impressions meant to stimulate religious imaginations. That is the way of degradation of the words of life.

No, Paul was simply trying to convey how spiritual senses...or faculties...work. In photography one focuses on a subject..whether in the foreground or background. If the object in the foreground is in focus, then the background will be fuzzy. Or it is the other way around.

What Paul is explaining is seeing in the Spirit...as fuzzy. That is the normal walk of someone who is in the Spirit. But as the focus changes to the clarity of the spiritual sense of sight...so then the world goes out of focus....so we can focus on what is eternal...beyond this world.

Now I realize that basically nobody understands what I'm talking about. But that is the way of it. The kingdom of God can be perceived by spiritual faculties...the most powerful of which is sight.

There are many NT verses...as well as OT verses that describe this....but it can only be understood by faith...unless one has experienced this.

So then if we are risen with Christ...and have entered into His life, we are admonished to keep our eyes (spiritual eyes) on things that are above (in the distance of the spiritual realm) so that it is the background that comes into focus.

There is another realm where God is already in glory. It is Zion. It is the kingdom of God. We are to seek to be in the midst of THIS realm through faith. To see as Jesus sees. To be in the light as He is in the light. His presence is through this present reality...by faith we penetrate through this world by letting go our carnal faculties...which are insufficient to walk in the immediate awareness of holiness.

I suppose it is quite impossible to explain. :)
The Jews were very philosophical and political.

All you have to do is to study a little bit of Jewish Gnosticism, there are apocryphal and see how many terms they adopted from other cultures.

The New Testament was heavily influenced by the Greeks and Romans.

One example is John talking about the incarnation. He used the Greek Logos to describe the second person of the Trinity incarnating in the flesh of Jesus Christ.

Several apostles were Roman citizens.

So your premise is just wrong.

The Bible clearly teaches us to examine things with both physical and spiritual eyes.

Many things require spiritual understanding. But no one would be saved if everything required spiritual understanding.

Nothing in the Bible says that is one gains spiritual clarity world goes on to focus. Fact is he comes into greater focus.

Greater understanding of the realities of flesh gives us greater understanding of the need of the spiritual.

It is not one or the other. It is both. Just as we are both physical and spiritual.
 
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Enoch111

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I suppose it is quite impossible to explain.
Since I provided a perfectly reasonable and biblical explanation, there is nothing impossible to explain here (unless one choose some Gnostic ideas instead of Bible truth).
 

marks

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"for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;" I Cor 13:12 [Young's]

What do you see in a mirror?

Much love!
 
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CoreIssue

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You have to remember mirrorers back in that day were not silver backed glass. They were highly polished metal.

So the reflection was distorted and blurry. Brass was heavily used.
 
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Episkopos

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Since I provided a perfectly reasonable and biblical explanation, there is nothing impossible to explain here (unless one choose some Gnostic ideas instead of Bible truth).


Like a blind man giving his opinion about the meaning of the colour blue which he has never seen. You are not being called to give an opinion and an theoretical explanation...but to enter the kingdom by faith. Your opinion has no value at all.
 
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CoreIssue

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Like a blind man giving his opinion about the meaning of the colour blue which he has never seen. You are not being called to give an pinion and an explanation...but to enter the kingdom by faith. Your opinion has no value at all.
Actually, you have the opinion that is worth nothing. It is misleading and not biblical.
 

Episkopos

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Actually, you have the opinion that is worth nothing. It is misleading and not biblical.


That's the difference between us...I am giving you testimony. It used to be where Christians had a testimony of Jesus Christ and His kingdom. But no longer...it's all just theories and opinions. That's the level you play on. And you refuse any other level....than the basest possible. That's why I don't waste words with you...normally. You have only carnal faculties to misunderstand the bible with. Hence your lack of comprehension to what I'm saying.
 

CoreIssue

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That's the difference between us...I am giving you testimony. It used to be where Christians had a testimony of Jesus Christ and His kingdom. But no longer...it's all just theories and opinions. That's the level you play on. And you refuse any other level....than the basest possible. That's why I don't waste words with you...normally. You have only carnal faculties to misunderstand the bible with. Hence your lack of comprehension to what I'm saying.
You are not giving testimony to Jesus Christ or the Bible.

You have made it clear many times you envision yourself as a prophet. You are not.
 

marks

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An untrue image of yourself.

A blurry image of yourself.

1 Corinthians 13
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

I see in a mirror, thought not very well. Now I know only a little of what I look like, but then I will see clearly, and I will see myself as I am seen by God.

No matter what I look like to myself, no matter what I think of myself, it's blurry at best. But I can know this. Love is the greatest of all.

"But we all, with unveiled faces, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image . . ." 2 Corinthians 3:18

1 John 3:1-2
"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

We've been raised in Christ, but that life hasn't made it all to the outside where we can see it yet.

As our lives are sanctified, we see His glory.

Much love!
Mark
 
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amadeus

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I believe that what Paul was saying is that the written Word of God is a mirror which provides us with a reflection of Christ, but not Christ face-to-face in reality. Hence "darkly". But after the Resurrection/Rapture, when all the saints have been perfected and glorified, we shall see Christ as He is now. This is brought out in 1 John 3:1-3:

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

This is similar to you facing a mirror and your friend comes behind you and you see his reflection only. The reflection is fine, but it is only after your friend come beside you and you see him face-to-face that you actually meet your friend.
And given your conclusion, what of between now and then? Are there no improvements possible in our vision during our allotted time "here"?

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25


Is it not even possible for a man to attain the "face to face" vision prior to finishing his allotted time while dwelling still in his flesh?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27
 

marks

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It used to be where Christians had a testimony of Jesus Christ and His kingdom. But no longer...it's all just theories and opinions.

Testimony is one thing. We can all declare about our lives. We can say what we want, we can act however.

I can give you my testimony but why? It has no authority. You will not accept it. Why would you accept it?

Opinions and theories are fine in their place I suppose, but the true issue is about Biblical doctrine, the actual teachings of the apostles and prophets, the true teaching of God.

Our testimonies are only meaningful as illustration of Scritpure, which requires a true understanding of Scripture itself.

You can relegate doctrine teaching and searching and understanding to be no better than theories and opinions, just the same, either,

You are comparing all of life and everything in it to your testimony, in which case you are the final authority, or you are comparing to the Bible, in which case we are to follow it's doctrine, which means to learn it, to know it, to understand it.

Much love!
Mark
 
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amadeus

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What Paul is explaining is seeing in the Spirit...as fuzzy. That is the normal walk of someone who is in the Spirit. But as the focus changes to the clarity of the spiritual sense of sight...so then the world goes out of focus....so we can focus on what is eternal...beyond this world.....

There are many NT verses...as well as OT verses that describe this....but it can only be understood by faith...unless one has experienced this...

There is another realm where God is already in glory. It is Zion. It is the kingdom of God. We are to seek to be in the midst of THIS realm through faith. To see as Jesus sees. To be in the light as He is in the light. His presence is through this present reality...by faith we penetrate through this world by letting go our carnal faculties...which are insufficient to walk in the immediate awareness of holiness.
Yes, expressing it as two realms works for me. Rather however I would depict it as this the fictional non-reality that men perceive with their natural senses [5] from which they draw conclusions with their supposedly logical mind [brain?], the ultimate ONLY reality is the realm of God. When our allotted time is finished, if we are not already a part of that reality having started with a fuzzy vision then we are nothing, remaining in darkness and knowing and perceiving nothing at all.

I suppose it is quite impossible to explain. :)

Impossible perhaps but Jesus did explain it if we are able to understand His words:

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." Matt 13:15-17
 

amadeus

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The Bible clearly teaches us to examine things with both physical and spiritual eyes.

Many things require spiritual understanding. But no one would be saved if everything required spiritual understanding.

Nothing in the Bible says that is one gains spiritual clarity world goes on to focus. Fact is he comes into greater focus.

Greater understanding of the realities of flesh gives us greater understanding of the need of the spiritual.

It is not one or the other. It is both. Just as we are both physical and spiritual.
If this is so, will it always be so? Will the physical be gone when we are like Him?

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." John 4:24
 
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amadeus

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What do you see in a mirror?

Much love!
Indeed, even in the finest quality of modern mirrors, we only see the superficial. Do not all of us in a measure only see God superficially, unless we have already attained to that "face of face" of which Apostle Paul was writing?
 
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