Reading but Never Seeing: Why Scripture Remains Hidden to the Lost

[Scott Downey]

For whom does Paul endure hardships to save??
2 Timothy 2

8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the [c]elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

******************
Paul acknowledges only the elect will obtain salvation, while the rest are blinded to the gospel
*****************

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

[bdavidc]

Yes, ONLY the elect will have faith, no one else will believe in Christ

I agree that the Scriptures you quoted are true, but what you’re reading into them goes beyond what the text actually says. Philippians 1:29 says it was granted to believers to suffer and believe, but the verse does not say that faith is irresistibly forced or that only certain people are enabled to believe while others are excluded by design. The Greek word for “granted” is charizomai, which means to give graciously. God graciously gives faith to those who believe the gospel, but Scripture consistently teaches that people are responsible for how they respond to the truth. Romans 10:17 says, “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God,” not by secret selection.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, yes, Paul says God chose them “through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” But again, belief is part of the process. It does not say God chose them apart from faith. The context in verse 10 makes it clear that those who perish do so “because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” That is a willful rejection, not a lack of being predestined.

You also mentioned 1 Peter 1:2, which says we are elect “according to the foreknowledge of God.” The Greek word there is prognōsis, meaning God’s prior knowledge, not predetermined exclusion. Romans 8:29 says, “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate.” Foreknowledge comes before predestination. God knows all, and He knows who will believe.

Nowhere does Scripture say that only the elect will believe and that no one else can. That conclusion is never directly stated. What the Bible says is that those who believe are saved, and those who reject the truth perish because they refused to believe (John 3:18–19, 2 Thessalonians 2:10). God does not rejoice in the death of the wicked, but desires all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). The invitation is real, and “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13).

I’m not here to argue systems or labels. I’m simply pointing out what the text says and doesn’t say. Scripture speaks plainly when we let it. Election is real, but so is the call to believe. Both are true, and both must be held without forcing one to cancel the other.

My OP was not intended to initiate or engage in debates concerning Calvinism, predestination, or election doctrines.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

******************
Paul acknowledges only the elect will obtain salvation, while the rest are blinded to the gospel
*****************

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

context is israel.

not mankind

and by your words here. You are saying God forced the elect to believe and keep the others from even having the ability to believe

 

[bdavidc]

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

You're right to point that out. 2 Peter 2:1 says false teachers will "secretly bring in destructive heresies," but today it’s not even secret. On this forum, many promote false doctrines openly and boldly, and what’s worse is that others cheer them on instead of correcting them with Scripture. That’s not just sad, that’s dangerous. The Bible warns that this will happen in the last days, people will not endure sound doctrine, but will heap up teachers to suit their own desires (2 Timothy 4:3). It’s no surprise, but it is grieving to watch. Truth is being trampled while error is being platformed. God’s Word must be the standard, not popularity or feelings. “Let God be true, but every man a liar” (Romans 3:4). Stand firm in the truth, do not compromise.

 

[Scott Downey]

I agree that the Scriptures you quoted are true, but what you’re reading into them goes beyond what the text actually says. Philippians 1:29 says it was granted to believers to suffer and believe, but the verse does not say that faith is irresistibly forced or that only certain people are enabled to believe while others are excluded by design. The Greek word for “granted” is charizomai, which means to give graciously. God graciously gives faith to those who believe the gospel, but Scripture consistently teaches that people are responsible for how they respond to the truth. Romans 10:17 says, “Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God,” not by secret selection.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, yes, Paul says God chose them “through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.” But again, belief is part of the process. It does not say God chose them apart from faith. The context in verse 10 makes it clear that those who perish do so “because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” That is a willful rejection, not a lack of being predestined.

You also mentioned 1 Peter 1:2, which says we are elect “according to the foreknowledge of God.” The Greek word there is prognōsis, meaning God’s prior knowledge, not predetermined exclusion. Romans 8:29 says, “For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate.” Foreknowledge comes before predestination. God knows all, and He knows who will believe.

Nowhere does Scripture say that only the elect will believe and that no one else can. That conclusion is never directly stated. What the Bible says is that those who believe are saved, and those who reject the truth perish because they refused to believe (John 3:18–19, 2 Thessalonians 2:10). God does not rejoice in the death of the wicked, but desires all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). The invitation is real, and “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13).

I’m not here to argue systems or labels. I’m simply pointing out what the text says and doesn’t say. Scripture speaks plainly when we let it. Election is real, but so is the call to believe. Both are true, and both must be held without forcing one to cancel the other.

My OP was not intended to initiate or engage in debates concerning Calvinism, predestination, or election doctrines.

John 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 and more all expose the truth of election
The only people who believe are those God grants to come to Christ.

John 10
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication[b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

I know you are an opponent of this by what you say in response to the scriptures.

There are also some people who claim only the Jews can be Christ's sheep, imagine that.
And they also say we are not in the New Covenant as gentiles, that is only for Jews.

 

[Scott Downey]

Since the Father gives to Christ His 'sheep' (believers), that proves election as true.

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves.

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes [j]in Me has everlasting life.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Many Disciples Turn Away​

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you?

62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more.

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The ones who remained with Christ had heard and learned from the Father as God had granted them to come to Christ and be saved.
The ones who left had not been granted to come to Christ, therefore God the Father had not taught them. They were not of God.

I know some people will reject the scriptures here, what Christ teaches about all men, many will not say Amen and praise God that He hides things from some while revealing them to others. For them, the God they think they know would never do such a thing.

Perhaps they are open theists!

 

[Scott Downey]

However that is a truth Jesus rejoices in, the choice of God and Himself as to who will know themselves.

Jesus Rejoices in the Spirit​

21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

22 All[g] things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For some of you, keep on being disagreeable. Funny how the thread title is about

Reading but Never Seeing: Why Scripture Remains Hidden to the Lost​

Scripture also remains hidden to some Christians.

 

[bdavidc]

John 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 and more all expose the truth of election
The only people who believe are those God grants to come to Christ.

John 10
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication[b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

I know you are an opponent of this by what you say in response to the scriptures.

There are also some people who claim only the Jews can be Christ's sheep, imagine that.
And they also say we are not in the New Covenant as gentiles, that is only for Jews.

My OP was not intended to initiate or engage in debates concerning Calvinism, predestination, or election doctrines.

 

[Scott Downey]

My OP was not intended to initiate or engage in debates concerning Calvinism, predestination, or election doctrines.

You started the thread title, I am just exposing what I consider some hypocrisy here.

And I am not able to convince anyone, that is always God's work.
People get locked into their theology, I tend to view it as God giving them over.
If you won't believe what He says, that is the common state of all mankind, unbelief, then delusions.

Unbelief is not a good thing. God has clearly said in His word what all these things are about.

 

[Scott Downey]

That some don't like the scriptures is not a good sign of their spiritual condition.
The other goofy thing they will say, is I believe all the scriptures, I just disagree with what you say about them!
Well if they do not agree with Christ or His apostles, you can not make them agree with you either.

 

[PS95]

You started the thread title, I am just exposing what I consider some hypocrisy here.

And I am not able to convince anyone, that is always God's work.
People get locked into their theology, I tend to view it as God giving them over.
If you won't believe what He says, that is the common state of all mankind, unbelief, then delusions.

Unbelief is not a good thing. God has clearly said in His word what all these things are about.

I don't think that unbelief in Calvinism is the same unbelief as the bible defines it, do you? Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning?
To be honest with you I have never deeply looked into Calvin or his teachings. Two reasons why I haven't-

1)Calvin had a man killed over a different belief- trinity I believe.. but it doesn't really matter which belief to me. That reveals something
about the man as a bible teacher imo.
2. It seems to paint God as a monster. Without a belief in an eternal conscious hell perhaps not--- but I do think most Calvinists do believe in conscious eternal hellfire.
I do accept that God chooses us- and I do accept that only the elect will be saved. but I don't think of it those in the same way that I think that you do.
I have just one question for you- Is @Eternally Grateful 's statement correct below? If not, why?

and by your words here. You are saying God forced the elect to believe and keep the others from even having the ability to believe

 

[Scott Downey]

I don't think that unbelief in Calvinism is the same unbelief as the bible defines it, do you? Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning?
To be honest with you I have never deeply looked into Calvin or his teachings. Two reasons why I haven't-

1)Calvin had a man killed over a different belief- trinity I believe.. but it doesn't really matter which belief to me. That reveals something
about the man as a bible teacher imo.
2. It seems to paint God as a monster. Without a belief in an eternal conscious hell perhaps not--- but I do think most Calvinists do believe in conscious eternal hellfire.
I do accept that God chooses us- and I do accept that only the elect will be saved. but I don't think of it those in the same way that I think that you do.
I have just one question for you- Is @Eternally Grateful 's statement correct below? If not, why?

Eternally Grateful's statement is completely bogus.
As you can see I showed in the scriptures the truth about the election and it made some people angry.
They are not being spiritually minded, but they are being carnally minded.
IF you made an honest study, you would have noticed this is not forced as the opponents of God are saying.
It is the Holy Spirit who is the teacher here.
Those the Spirit teaches, only the elect will hear God and believe the message, all of them come to Christ as they are of God.
They have an anointing from God to know the truth.

The others, well, what does Ephesians 1 and 2 teach you about the others who do not believe?

1 Peter 2

Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow [a]thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People​

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,

“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who [b]are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”
8 and

“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here again is the election in 1 John 2, as the anointing is what the elect have received from God, while the ones who left Christ, they DID NOT HAVE the anointing from the Father to know the truth. So they left, same teaching as Jesus taught in John 6

Deceptions of the Last Hour​

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You​

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to [f]deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you [g]will abide in Him.

 

[Scott Downey]

I should not have to say these things, but some have grown hard of hearing and become opponents of the Word.
I am stirring up your minds by way of reminder about what our Savior and His apostles taught about our salvation.
That some still refuse to hear is sad, but is not my problem, it is theirs.

 

[PS95]

Here again is the election in 1 John 2, as the anointing is what the elect have received from God, while the ones who left Christ, they DID NOT HAVE the anointing from the Father to know the truth. So they left, same teaching as Jesus taught in John 6

Deceptions of the Last Hour​

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[d] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you[e] know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You​

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to [f]deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you [g]will abide in Him.

Thanks Scott, for the replies. I'm familiar with all of the verse you've offered.
I am still wondering though, how Eternally Grateful's statement is incorrect? You say it's bogus and I would hope so, but I see that as the end result as well. I may word this wrong- but here goes-
Some are called and they cant resist the call. Others wont be called and will be punished in hell for it? I think that's how it sounds. I think that's how eternally grateful heard it too. What am I missing?

and by your words here. You are saying God forced the elect to believe and keeps the others from even having the ability to believe

 

[Scott Downey]

Thanks Scott, for the replies. I'm familiar with all of the verse you've offered.
I am still wondering though, how Eternally Grateful's statement is incorrect? You say it's bogus and I would hope so, but I see that as the end result as well. I may word this wrong- but here goes-
Some are called and they cant resist the call. Others wont be called and will be punished in hell for it? I think that's how it sounds. I think that's how eternally grateful heard it too. What am I missing?

It is not my words, it is the word of the Father.
The issue is are you going to be spiritually minded? Or fall back too being carnally minded.
When you read the New Testament, start looking for the election, and see what you find.

Let's say God is the righteous judge of all the earth, He always does what is right.
When God called and chose Noah, what happened to all the others who did not find favor with God?
All of them were destroyed.
And what about Lot and the people of Sodom? The same thing.
What people miss is the natural man is evil minded in his heart from his youth.
Since scripture says no one seek for God, and all have turned away from the Lord and are unprofitable, it then falls on God to do what He will according to His own purposes.

Genesis 8
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination[a] of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

It is up to the LORD GOD to choose to show mercy and compassion on whom HE will, and we are not God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

 

[Scott Downey]

And do not forget, God has enemies, there is a devil and demons and fallen angels, there was a fall in Eden and it affected all of the created order including the angels in heaven who left their proper abode. So, things changed from being very good as God said of His creation before the fall into what we see today in the world. And we do not see all the evil things of the world as we cannot see into the spiritual realms. God sees it all.

 

[PS95]

It is not my words, it is the word of the Father.
The issue is are you going to be spiritually minded? Or fall back too being carnally minded.
When you read the New Testament, start looking for the election, and see what you find.

Let's say God is the righteous judge of all the earth, He always does what is right.
When God called and chose Noah, what happened to all the others who did not find favor with God?
All of them were destroyed.
And what about Lot and the people of Sodom? The same thing.
What people miss is the natural man is evil minded in his heart from his youth.
Since scripture says no one seek for God, and all have turned away from the Lord and are unprofitable, it then falls on God to do what He will according to His own purposes.

Genesis 8
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination[a] of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

It is up to the LORD GOD to choose to show mercy and compassion on whom HE will, and we are not God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

Scott, Thanks for your time. I'm sensing anger from you for some reason. I do know there are 2 sides that disagree vehemently. I tend not to read those since the spirit is all wrong. I've had to deal with my own issues that most don't ever face being raised Jw- pretty much re-learning the entire bible in it's context while fighting against brainwash rote learning wiring. So this teaching was of no importance to me. They have their own elect ideas which are just plain silly now.
I hate to see believers fight. There are real false teachers out there. I just don't see this as salvational. I do see it as a tad confusing.

I do see election in the scriptures. However I do not see it being limited to only certain people. Instead I see things such as this-
1 Timothy 2:4: “[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
2 Peter 3:9: “[God is] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

So, while I see the point you are making, I also see those and well- that's a problem.

Predestination I do see, but I also but I also see God's foreknowledge which is a big difference-
Romans 8:29: “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.”
1 Peter 1:2: “…elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.”

While I personally found God's calling to be irresistible, I also learned that I can resist the Spirit if I choose to in my daily life-
Acts 7:51: “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit.”
Matthew 23:37: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… How often I wanted to gather your children together… but you were not willing!”

Anyway, I will look deeper into this since the bible can't be teaching two contradictory views. It appears that way to me right now, so I will have to dig deeper and pray. Paul can be hard at times, so I tend to look for confirmation elsewhere in scriptures before concluding.

Thanks again for your time. Much appreciated.

 

[Scott Downey]

Scott, Thanks for your time. I'm sensing anger from you for some reason. I do know there are 2 sides that disagree vehemently. I tend not to read those since the spirit is all wrong. I've had to deal with my own issues that most don't ever face being raised Jw- pretty much re-learning the entire bible in it's context while fighting against brainwash rote learning wiring. So this teaching was of no importance to me. They have their own elect ideas which are just plain silly now.
I hate to see believers fight. There are real false teachers out there. I just don't see this as salvational. I do see it as a tad confusing.

I do see election in the scriptures. However I do not see it being limited to only certain people. Instead I see things such as this-
1 Timothy 2:4: “[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
2 Peter 3:9: “[God is] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

So, while I see the point you are making, I also see those and well- that's a problem.

Predestination I do see, but I also but I also see God's foreknowledge which is a big difference-
Romans 8:29: “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.”
1 Peter 1:2: “…elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.”

While I personally found God's calling to be irresistible, I also learned that I can resist the Spirit if I choose to in my daily life-
Acts 7:51: “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit.”
Matthew 23:37: “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… How often I wanted to gather your children together… but you were not willing!”

Anyway, I will look deeper into this since the bible can't be teaching two contradictory views. It appears that way to me right now, so I will have to dig deeper and pray. Paul can be hard at times, so I tend to look for confirmation elsewhere in scriptures before concluding.

Thanks again for your time. Much appreciated.

I have heard it before in people's testimonies, how God called them, but then they deny election as taught in scripture.
When you read of that God would rather people repent and believe, doctrine of election is not at odds with that.
God commands all people all over to repent and believe. But they continually won't listen, rejecting the message.
Unless God does His work in them they will not believe.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

You read how Jesus and the apostles shared the gospel with the unbelieving Jews and they continually rejected it.
Noah was a preacher of righteousness to his world, and still zero results.
The Doctrine of election describes how God saves us and even why He does.

Acts 13
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us:

‘I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

49 And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. 50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Eternally Grateful's statement is completely bogus.

whatever

As you can see I showed in the scriptures the truth about the election and it made some people angry.

No one is angry, You take to much pride in yourself my friend.

people who know the truth are not angry when someone does not get it..

Now we may be angry in how you treat God.. but no one is angry at you. Maybe we feel sorry for you?

They are not being spiritually minded, but they are being carnally minded.

Or are you being carnally minded?

IF you made an honest study, you would have noticed this is not forced as the opponents of God are saying.

Yet that's what you preach

a non elect person is forced to not believe.. why? According to you. God will not open their minds to let them see. so they have no choice

The elect on the other hand are pretty much forced to believe.

God opens their minds. and even though they would never even see let alone believe before. they will never turn Down Gods plan of salvation but now will receive it no matter what.

when you do not have a choice in the matter, this is called being forced..

there are many reasons we are forced.

circumstances beyond out control force us to do one thing or another. or force us not to do something

no matter what. If you have no choice, you are in essence forced because you have no ability to chose

ps. next time you want to reference me, Please speak to me directly