Reading but Never Seeing: Why Scripture Remains Hidden to the Lost

[Helen]

This is why arguments with those who reject the truth often go nowhere. They may be well-spoken, religious, and even knowledgeable, but if their eyes have not been opened by the Lord, they remain blind guides (Matthew 15:14). Just like the Pharisees who searched the Scriptures but missed the very Messiah those Scriptures pointed to (John 5:39-40), many today are reading, but not seeing.

So what does this mean for you? First, it means we must never approach the Bible casually. We must pray and ask God to teach us. We must spend time with Jesus, not just learning about Him, but knowing Him. “Open Thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy law” (Psalm 119:18). Second, when we stand for truth and meet resistance, we shouldn’t be surprised. Truth is not something people can understand unless God grants them light. That should keep us humble, dependent on prayer, and focused on pointing people to Christ, not just winning arguments.

The Bible is not just a religious book. It is the very Word of God. And only those who draw near to the Author will be given understanding. “The entrance of Thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple” (Psalm 119:130). Are you seeking that light, or just reading the words? Only one path leads to truth.

I know this was posted back in April ….but I’ve only just read it…so fresh to me.
is this your own , or a quote from someone? Not that it matters either way , just wonder .

I especially liked- “ The Bible is not just a religious book. It is the very Word of God. And only those who draw near to the Author will be given understanding. “The entrance of Thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple” (Psalm 119:130). Are you seeking that light, or just reading the words? Only one path leads to truth”.

You mention arguments on the forum which go nowhere …
I just wish that there were no arguments , Paul mentions how futile and unproductive they are .
They get us nowhere and breed negativity .
Discussions are good and one thing , and helpful in causing us to think on things , but I find arguments in threads grieving , as people get so frustrated . Sad . Plus most arguments are rooted in pride.

As young Christians back in the 60’s we cut our teeth on discussions around the Sunday lunch table when us kids ( as adults) and spouses , gathered together and my dad began asking us why we believed what we believed etc …a good discussion is a great tool .

Just my ramble …

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

Christian communities I've visited that are active always have arguments going.
Those that are dead or are barely active don't.

It's weird.

 

[PS95]

I know this was posted back in April ….but I’ve only just read it…so fresh to me.
is this your own , or a quote from someone? Not that it matters either way , just wonder .

I especially liked- “ The Bible is not just a religious book. It is the very Word of God. And only those who draw near to the Author will be given understanding. “The entrance of Thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple” (Psalm 119:130). Are you seeking that light, or just reading the words? Only one path leads to truth”.

You mention arguments on the forum which go nowhere …
I just wish that there were no arguments , Paul mentions how futile and unproductive they are .
They get us nowhere and breed negativity .
Discussions are good and one thing , and helpful in causing us to think on things , but I find arguments in threads grieving , as people get so frustrated . Sad . Plus most arguments are rooted in pride.

As young Christians back in the 60’s we cut our teeth on discussions around the Sunday lunch table when us kids ( as adults) and spouses , gathered together and my dad began asking us why we believed what we believed etc …a good discussion is a great tool .

Just my ramble …

I really appreciate His posts. It is always solid biblical advice. I have no idea why people chose to pull apart his every word and start arguing. I certainly don't think he intends that. It seems the bible offends to this day. I doubt there is a single thing that can be posted other than a joke that people wont attack over.

 

[Manasseh]

You mean these guys? Yes, I see these demons on the TV all the time.

View attachment 62826

Hoorah!

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, the Bible teaches that the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians 2:14), and that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44). But to say that only a predetermined group was chosen to receive eternal life, and that no one else can possibly respond, goes beyond what Scripture says.

Romans 11:32 says, “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.” This shows the universal condition of sin, but also God’s desire to show mercy to all. Titus 2:11 says, “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.” John 1:9 speaks of Jesus as the true Light, “which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.” The call of the Gospel is universal, “Repent, and believe the gospel” (Mark 1:15), and God holds people accountable for how they respond.

The Greek word for “draw” in John 6:44 is helkō, which means to pull or attract, not to force or override the will. Jesus also said, “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (helkō) all men unto me” (John 12:32). The drawing of God is not limited to a select few, it is extended to all, but not all respond. That’s why Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said, “Ye would not” (Matthew 23:37). The problem is not God’s failure to elect more people, it is man’s stubborn refusal to believe.

The term “elect” (Greek: eklektos) in Scripture refers to those who are in Christ. Ephesians 1:4 says we are chosen “in Him” before the foundation of the world. This choosing is not arbitrary, it is based on foreknowledge (Romans 8:29). God foreknew who would respond to the Gospel in faith, and those are the ones He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. That’s not speculation, that’s exactly what Romans 8:29 says.

The Lamb’s Book of Life is referenced in Revelation 17:8, but Revelation 3:5 also says, “He that overcometh... I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.” This shows that names can be blotted out, which contradicts the idea that it is fixed from eternity past with no change possible.

God is not excluding people from salvation. He is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). To say otherwise misrepresents God's revealed will in Scripture. The Gospel is not just for an inner circle, it is offered to all, and whoever believes has eternal life (John 3:16, Romans 10:13).

So yes, only those who are truly in Christ will be saved. But anyone who hears the Gospel and believes is invited in. The idea that people are shut out from the beginning with no opportunity is not Sola Scriptura, it is an assumption layered onto Scripture, not drawn from it.

It does not go beyond scripture to say God foreknew His elect and only they are saved. I don't read about any others getting glorified.
Only the elect will have faith. The non elect don't believe and are without hope and without God in the world as they are of the world.


28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


Ephesians 2, Paul reminds the gentile believers of their former condition before they believed

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

Ephesians should quash any notion that there are non elect people being saved as it clearly talks of those God chose before time began are the ones who God saves

I have heard all sorts of lies about what this book means, it means what it says, not everyone was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. But the deniers here say all people were chosen in Him, because if they truly believed scripture, it would force them to change their minds. People don't want to change their mind, so they fight, deny, oppose the words, but the scriptures will convict them at the judgment.

Ephesians 1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Scott Downey]

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 8
19 Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

20 These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And 'cherry picked' verses are also true!
That accusation gets thrown around a lot.

I have actually heard some Christians say the words do not mean what it says.
And it does not pass the smell test.

 

[bdavidc]

It does not go beyond scripture to say God foreknew His elect and only they are saved. I don't read about any others getting glorified.
Only the elect will have faith. The non elect don't believe and are without hope and without God in the world as they are of the world.


28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


Ephesians 2, Paul reminds the gentile believers of their former condition before they believed

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

you’re quoting Scripture, but your conclusions go beyond what the text actually says. Yes, Romans 8:29–30 speaks of God foreknowing, predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying, but that chain applies to those who are in Christ, not to some secret group with no choice in the matter. The passage does not say God only foreknew a small group and excluded everyone else from ever believing.

In fact, Scripture says plainly that God “will have all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4) and that Jesus is “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). Salvation is offered to all, not just a few predetermined individuals. The gospel call goes out to “whosoever will” (Revelation 22:17). That includes the Gentiles who were formerly “without hope and without God” in Ephesians 2, but who were “brought near by the blood of Christ” when they believed. That doesn’t support the idea that only the elect can believe, it actually shows that people who were far off did believe.

Faith doesn’t come because someone is secretly chosen. Romans 10:17 says, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” The responsibility is on the hearer to respond. If someone perishes, it’s not because God withheld saving faith, it’s because they loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19).

So no, it's not biblical to say only the elect will have faith and all others have no hope. That’s not what Scripture teaches. The Bible says Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10). God foreknows everything, but He saves those who believe the gospel. If you're reading Scripture through a system that limits God's grace to a few, you're twisting Scripture instead of reading it the way God actually meant it.

 

[bdavidc]

Ephesians should quash any notion that there are non elect people being saved as it clearly talks of those God chose before time began are the ones who God saves

I have heard all sorts of lies about what this book means, it means what it says, not everyone was chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. But the deniers here say all people were chosen in Him, because if they truly believed scripture, it would force them to change their minds. People don't want to change their mind, so they fight, deny, oppose the words, but the scriptures will convict them at the judgment.

Ephesians 1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Redemption in Christ​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and [b]prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, [c]both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

You're quoting Ephesians 1, but you're making it say something it doesn’t say. The text speaks of believers being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4), but nowhere does it say that only a fixed, exclusive group was chosen while everyone else was predestined to be damned without any opportunity to be saved. That’s your system talking, not the Scriptures.

Let’s break this down according to the Word. Ephesians 1:4 says, “He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world.” That phrase “in Him” is key. God’s choice is not arbitrary, it is in connection with Christ. The original Greek says ἐν αὐτῷ, meaning “in Him.” God’s plan from the beginning was that all who are in Christ, those who believe, would be holy and blameless. The passage doesn’t say who gets placed in Christ, it describes the destiny of those who are. Verse 13 confirms this: “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.” So it is after hearing, after believing, that a person is sealed. That shows personal responsibility and response to the gospel.

You said this passage “quashes” any idea that non-elect people can be saved, but that’s not what Paul wrote. He’s speaking to saints who believed the gospel (v. 1, v. 13). You’re reading determinism into a passage that never mentions it. Nowhere in this chapter, or anywhere else, does the Bible say God prevents people from believing or that He created some only to destroy them. In fact, Scripture says plainly, “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13). That offer is universal. If someone rejects it, they perish because they refuse the truth, not because God never gave them a chance (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

You also said, “Not everyone was chosen in Him,” as if people are being locked out of salvation before they ever live or hear the gospel. But the Bible says God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) and that Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6). That’s not meaningless language. You’re trying to use Ephesians to teach a limitation the rest of Scripture rejects.

Yes, the Scriptures will convict. That’s why we need to let them speak for themselves, not force them into theological systems. If you’re going to quote Ephesians 1, quote it in context and be honest about what it says. It describes the spiritual blessings of believers, not the eternal destiny of the unbelieving world. And it doesn’t say people are born reprobate with no hope, it says those who trust Christ are sealed. That’s the message.

 

[bdavidc]

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John 8
19 Then they said to Him, “Where is Your Father?”

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”

20 These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And 'cherry picked' verses are also true!
That accusation gets thrown around a lot.

I have actually heard some Christians say the words do not mean what it says.
And it does not pass the smell test.

You're quoting both Ephesians 1:13–14 and John 8, but you're trying to force them into a framework the Bible doesn’t actually teach. Let’s stick to what the text says in context, using only Scripture.

Ephesians 1:13 says plainly, “In Him ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.” The order is clear: first comes hearing the gospel, then comes believing, and then comes the sealing of the Holy Spirit. The Greek word for “believed” is pisteuō (πιστεύω), which means to have faith, to entrust, to place confidence in. This verse absolutely affirms human responsibility and a real response to the gospel. It does not teach that people are sealed before believing, or that belief is impossible unless God secretly chooses you beforehand. The Spirit seals those who believe, not those who were sealed without believing.

Now, John 8:47 says, “He that is of God heareth God's words, ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” This is not about some hidden, predetermined group. Jesus is speaking to people who refused to hear. Throughout John 8, He rebukes their unbelief, their sin, and their rejection of the truth. He says in verse 45, “Because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.” They are not “not of God” because they were predestined to be lost, they are “not of God” because they rejected God's Word. They hardened their hearts. John 3:19 makes it clear, “Men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

You’re right that even so-called “cherry-picked” verses are true. But they must still be read in full biblical context. Isolating a verse and then building a theology that contradicts the rest of Scripture is not sound doctrine. The whole counsel of God must be heard. That includes verses like 1 Timothy 2:4, which says God “will have all men to be saved,” and 2 Peter 3:9, which says He is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

So no, the Word doesn’t need to “pass the smell test,” it needs to be rightly divided (2 Timothy 2:15). We don’t judge Scripture by how it feels or sounds to us, we submit to what it actually says in context. And in context, both Ephesians 1 and John 8 affirm that hearing, believing, and responding to truth matters, and those who reject it are judged because they reject it, not because they were never given the opportunity.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

So no, it's not biblical to say only the elect will have faith and all others have no hope. That’s not what Scripture teaches. The Bible says Jesus is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10). God foreknows everything, but He saves those who believe the gospel. If you're reading Scripture through a system that limits God's grace to a few, you're twisting Scripture instead of reading it the way God actually meant it.

You just described 80 - 90% of the so-called "Christian churches" in the U.S. currently. A TON of protestant variations all beyond lost..
The overwhelming majority of modern “Christian” churches in the U.S. — including countless Protestant denominations — have abandoned the biblical Gospel in favor of:

Human-centered theology (“God is here to make your life better”)
Easy-believism and false assurance (“Just say a prayer and you’re saved forever no matter what”)
Hyper-grace or universalism (where even Satan might get saved eventually…)
Zionist heresy (treating the unbelieving, Rothschild/UN, manufactured False Israel™ as “God’s chosen” even when they reject Christ)
Scofieldism/Dispensationalism (splitting the people of God into Jews and Christians instead of seeing the Church as the true Israel)
Prosperity gospel and self-help preaching (no repentance, no cross, no Holy Spirit conviction)
Seeker-sensitive entertainment instead of Spirit-led discipleship
Woke theology and LGBTQ-affirming false teachers
No teaching on sin, hell, holiness, or the fear of the Lord

And most churches aren’t just off by a little; they are full blown apostate.

As Paul warned:
“For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”
— 2 Timothy 4:3

And Jesus made it clear:
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.”
— Matthew 7:13–14

Only a few find it.
Not everyone. Not most. Not even “many.”

 

[Scott Downey]

You're quoting both Ephesians 1:13–14 and John 8, but you're trying to force them into a framework the Bible doesn’t actually teach. Let’s stick to what the text says in context, using only Scripture.

Ephesians 1:13 says plainly, “In Him ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.” The order is clear: first comes hearing the gospel, then comes believing, and then comes the sealing of the Holy Spirit. The Greek word for “believed” is pisteuō (πιστεύω), which means to have faith, to entrust, to place confidence in. This verse absolutely affirms human responsibility and a real response to the gospel. It does not teach that people are sealed before believing, or that belief is impossible unless God secretly chooses you beforehand. The Spirit seals those who believe, not those who were sealed without believing.

Now, John 8:47 says, “He that is of God heareth God's words, ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.” This is not about some hidden, predetermined group. Jesus is speaking to people who refused to hear. Throughout John 8, He rebukes their unbelief, their sin, and their rejection of the truth. He says in verse 45, “Because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.” They are not “not of God” because they were predestined to be lost, they are “not of God” because they rejected God's Word. They hardened their hearts. John 3:19 makes it clear, “Men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

You’re right that even so-called “cherry-picked” verses are true. But they must still be read in full biblical context. Isolating a verse and then building a theology that contradicts the rest of Scripture is not sound doctrine. The whole counsel of God must be heard. That includes verses like 1 Timothy 2:4, which says God “will have all men to be saved,” and 2 Peter 3:9, which says He is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”

So no, the Word doesn’t need to “pass the smell test,” it needs to be rightly divided (2 Timothy 2:15). We don’t judge Scripture by how it feels or sounds to us, we submit to what it actually says in context. And in context, both Ephesians 1 and John 8 affirm that hearing, believing, and responding to truth matters, and those who reject it are judged because they reject it, not because they were never given the opportunity.

Yes He the Spirit seals believers,
But I think your do not believe that God granted to you your very faith in Christ, or you would not have taken the approach to the word you have done.

Philippians 1 also clearly states about your belief in v29 that you are granted to believe in Him, which is why you believed in Him

27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

 

[Scott Downey]

See that dividing the word shows the election of God for those whom He chose.

2 Thessalonians 2 contrasts the unbelieving, with their minds blinded by Satan who REFUSE to love the truth, to those God has chosen in Him for salvation from the beginning (agrees with Ephesians 1), whom he says are loved by God, also agrees with Ephesians 1 and many other scriptures.

13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.

From the beginning of WHAT exactly?

Take a read here

2 Timothy 1

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

*********************
There is a lot of good truth in these scriptures

 

[Scott Downey]

AND 1 Peter 1 says the same things
These are the apostles' and Christ's doctrines being exposed here

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Praise to God for a Living Hope​

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

 

[Scott Downey]

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

Now why would God do such a thing on behalf of His Son?

Romans 8 tells us a reason why, that Christ would have a family of brothers and sisters, have children of God, the following verses from the NIV, but all versions say the same about His brethren.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

As does Hebrews 2 say the same things about the family of God

10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. 11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.[g] 12 He says,

“I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises.”[h]
13 And again,

“I will put my trust in him.”[i]
And again he says,

“Here am I, and the children God has given me.”[j]

14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes, ONLY the elect will have faith, no one else will believe in Christ
Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—

NKJV
Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,

 

[bdavidc]

I know this was posted back in April ….but I’ve only just read it…so fresh to me.
is this your own , or a quote from someone?

Yes, that’s mine, I wrote it for my website know-the-bible.com. I’m glad it resonated with you. That line you quoted sums up a deep conviction I hold, without drawing near to the Author, Scripture becomes just words to people. But when we approach it with a heart to know Him, it changes everything.

I agree with you about the state of many forum arguments. It’s sad to watch truth get buried under pride and frustration. A good, honest discussion, especially when it leads us to examine Scripture more closely, is always valuable. Appreciate your thoughtful response.

 

[Scott Downey]

When people compete against scriptures with their own manmade theological philosophies about the nature of God and our salvation, then they will never come to the knowledge of the truth except in a limited way, and they will never be understanding the scriptures, except through their own misshapen blurry theological lens.

See I have posted many scriptural truths over many years on various forums, and perhaps some few have truly believed the scriptures, while the others promote a man centered view which is not of God, but which is of delusions and deceptions and false teaching.

It is comically sad that the false teachers argue among themselves about their own delusions, they are all fully convinced and locked into their various theological fancies.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. ...

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

Now why would God do such a thing on behalf of His Son?

Romans 8 tells us a reason why, that Christ would have a family of brothers and sisters, have children of God, the following verses from the NIV, but all versions say the same about His brethren.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

As does Hebrews 2 say the same things about the family of God

10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. 11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.[g] 12 He says,

“I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises.”[h]
13 And again,

“I will put my trust in him.”[i]
And again he says,

“Here am I, and the children God has given me.”[j]

14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

I appreciate your reverence for Scripture and the way you’re grounding your view in passages like Ephesians 1, Philippians 1:29, 2 Thessalonians 2, and Titus 1:1 — all of which affirm that election and saving faith are not random, but divinely granted.

But here’s where I think the disconnect is happening between you and bdavidc — and it’s not a small thing:

You're right that saving faith is granted by God (Phil. 1:29), that election is real (Eph. 1, 2 Thess. 2), and that no one comes unless drawn (John 6:44). But bdavidc isn’t denying those verses — he's emphasizing the human response to the Gospel, which Scripture also teaches alongside God’s sovereignty.

The key is:
Election and responsibility are not mutually exclusive.
The Bible teaches both:

God chooses (Eph. 1, Rom. 9)
Man responds (Rom. 10:9, Acts 17:30, John 1:12)

The mistake would be to pit them against each other as if they cancel out.

Also, when bdavidc quotes verses like 1 Tim 2:4 (“God desires all men to be saved”) and 2 Pet 3:9 (“not willing that any should perish”), he’s not wrong to raise them — the text does say that. The question is: how do we reconcile those verses with the ones you're quoting? The answer is not to flatten one side or the other, but to hold both truths in tension — God’s sovereign grace and man’s accountable response.

What he’s missing is that faith itself is a gift — granted by grace.
What you’re at risk of missing is that the invitation to believe is still real, and the human response still matters.

This isn’t Arminianism vs. Calvinism — this is Scripture holding sovereignty and responsibility together without apology.

So yes — only the elect will ultimately believe.
But yes — all are called to repent and believe.
Both are true. And the true sheep will respond, because they were granted ears to hear. (John 10, Acts 13:48)

 

[Scott Downey]

I appreciate your reverence for Scripture and the way you’re grounding your view in passages like Ephesians 1, Philippians 1:29, 2 Thessalonians 2, and Titus 1:1 — all of which affirm that election and saving faith are not random, but divinely granted.

But here’s where I think the disconnect is happening between you and bdavidc — and it’s not a small thing:

You're right that saving faith is granted by God (Phil. 1:29), that election is real (Eph. 1, 2 Thess. 2), and that no one comes unless drawn (John 6:44). But bdavidc isn’t denying those verses — he's emphasizing the human response to the Gospel, which Scripture also teaches alongside God’s sovereignty.

The key is:
Election and responsibility are not mutually exclusive.
The Bible teaches both:

God chooses (Eph. 1, Rom. 9)
Man responds (Rom. 10:9, Acts 17:30, John 1:12)

The mistake would be to pit them against each other as if they cancel out.

Also, when bdavidc quotes verses like 1 Tim 2:4 (“God desires all men to be saved”) and 2 Pet 3:9 (“not willing that any should perish”), he’s not wrong to raise them — the text does say that. The question is: how do we reconcile those verses with the ones you're quoting? The answer is not to flatten one side or the other, but to hold both truths in tension — God’s sovereign grace and man’s accountable response.

What he’s missing is that faith itself is a gift — granted by grace.
What you’re at risk of missing is that the invitation to believe is still real, and the human response still matters.

This isn’t Arminianism vs. Calvinism — this is Scripture holding sovereignty and responsibility together without apology.

So yes — only the elect will ultimately believe.
But yes — all are called to repent and believe.
Both are true. And the true sheep will respond, because they were granted ears to hear. (John 10, Acts 13:48)

Christ genuinely says to all to come and drink freely, but we know those not elect, they refuse Him.
Unless God reveals to them the truth, they will not believe in Christ.

The end is the same, only the elect will have faith in His Son.

For the elect, each one has a time in their life when God will reveal His Son within them.
Then they believe and are sealed for salvation.

We who believe were born as elect, but we are not born saved.

Galatians 1

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

v15, was the time when God chose to save Paul, one of His elect.