So how are we seeing right now?

[amadeus]

Blessings, John. Glad to see you are feeling better.

Thank you my friend! Yes, the flesh of this old man is slower now and is probably quite close to its final stop, but it is quite another story for the "new man", is it not? Give God the glory!

About this question, my answer would be not without the gift of prophecy in full operation. This was the very means by which Paul said they were seeing themselves through a mirror, even as they existed back then. Since very few churches operate in prophecy at the current time, we see ourselves LESS clearly than they did back then, not more clearly.

When you speak of "very few churches" you speak of probably physical organized groups of people, is God limited by the boundaries of such groups? Did not Jesus say,

"Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matt 18:19-20

The gathering surely need not to be a physical one when the binding thread is the Holy Spirit within each of those gathering by yielding to that Spirit? How many agreed together to keep on walking with God to the Promised Land? Only two: Joshua and Caleb! Only two out of Egypt [sin] all the way into their momentary glory land. What did Joshua and Caleb see to which the other natural children of Jacob were blind? We can limit God, but if we do not, what will He not be able to do for us?

- Be zealous for the greater gifts, and yet I show a way in accordance with excellence. (1 Corinthians 12:31)

So then be zealous with all we have...not worrying about the other guy... and ask that He takes up any slack and leave us with no blank spaces in need of being filled:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

-

Here he is referring backwards to every member of the body operating in his or her own spiritual gifts, and therefore needing one another.

We cannot fix any shortcomings in the other guy. All we can do is all that we can and pray for the other guy. The rest is up to God, is it not?

This is why love is stressed in 13:1-7. Then he states your verse quoted in the OP:

- Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will be rendered useless. Whether there are tongues, they shall cease. Whether there is knowledge, it shall be rendered useless. For we know in part and we prophecy in part. But when that which is complete may come, that which is in part is rendered useless. [Then comes the analogy of us seeing ourselves as infants would now, but as adults would see themselves in eternity]...
For now we see through a mirror as in a riddle, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall recognize [myself] even as I have been recognized. (1 Corinthians 13:1-12).
- The whole passage is about accurately recognizing one's true spiritual state as GOD sees it, and I personally think this to be utterly impossible unless the Spirit of God speaks through congregations enabling Him to do so (as the context suggests, through prophetic utterance in particular).

Congregations consist of people. There will be tares among the wheat. Don't expect them all to suddenly become wheat. Some may... but some never will.

No time for talk. Too busy. Just thought I'd post a comment.

Thanks! Give God the glory! With us or without us, He will finish His work!

 

[amadeus]

Neither Christ or the Saints are spirit beings in eternity. They have bodies, glorified bodies.

And these bodies are according to which scriptures made from what? Dirt and water? I have heard of the doctrine you allude to but have not seen it myself in scripture.

 

[CoreIssue]

And these bodies are according to which scriptures made from what? Dirt and water? I have heard of the doctrine you allude to but have not seen it myself in scripture.

It says are flesh bodies made of the ground will be perfected, cleanse and in conformity with the glorified body of Jesus Christ.

His body is also made of the ground and was glorified and his ascension.

There simply is no room in the Bible for the Oneness doctrine concerning God.

We can see Christ praying to the father. He was not praying to himself.

We see Christ before the throne of God, showing two persons.

We see three people called God appearing to Abraham.

When Christ was baptized the father spoke from heaven and the Holy Spirit like it though. Clearly three persons,

 

[amadeus]

It says are flesh bodies made of the ground will be perfected, cleanse and in conformity with the glorified body of Jesus Christ.

His body is also made of the ground and was glorified and his ascension.

There simply is no room in the Bible for the Oneness doctrine concerning God.

We can see Christ praying to the father. He was not praying to himself.

We see Christ before the throne of God, showing two persons.

We see three people called God appearing to Abraham.

When Christ was baptized the father spoke from heaven and the Holy Spirit like it though. Clearly three persons,

Your argument seems to be dependent on a belief in the Trinity. I won't derail my own thread to discuss the nature of God here. I will only say that I am not a proponent of the Oneness Jesus only doctrine as per the UPCI nor do I embrace the Trinity doctrine.

 

[CoreIssue]

Your argument seems to be dependent on a belief in the Trinity. I won't derail my own thread to discuss the nature of God here. I will only say that I am not a proponent of the Oneness Jesus only doctrine as per the UPCI nor do I embrace the Trinity doctrine.

My point was the nature of God is critical to your discussion. There's no escaping it

You are the one to try to make Christ in heaven due to your non-Trinitarian thinking.

And I stated my opinion concerning the mirror issue.

We are incapable of seeing everything clearly. All we can do is grasp pieces.

How much more clearly we will see in eternity I do not know. I just know it will never be with the clarity that God can see.

And from what I've read I believe the Angels could see more clearly than we can, but not as clearly as God.

 

[Enoch111]

...through prophetic utterance in particular)

Since Paul already made it clear -- within that context -- that prophecies would cease, then why would you be expecting prophetic utterances in contravention to what he said? "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail" [καταργηθήσονται (katargēthēsontai) = to cease, to render inoperative, abolish].

The last genuine prophet of God was the apostle-prophet John. He not only brought all genuine prophecies to an end in Revelation, but he ended the entire Bible with his last book around 96 AD. The reason there are no more GENUINE prophetic utterances in the churches is right here. Even the Apostolic Fathers would not presume to be either apostles or prophets.

God has given us a view of Christ in the Bible which is a reflection of who He is, what He has done, and what He is doing at present. But we know that when He shall appear, we shall be like Him, for we shall SEE HIM AS HE IS -- face-to-face (1 John 3:1-3).

 

[amadeus]

My point was the nature of God is critical to your discussion. There's no escaping it

I don't disagree completely that an understanding of all things may be necessary to be able to correctly even discuss all things. I am unable to discuss the whole of the scriptures on this thread. Probably you are also so limited... but the limits are ours, not God's, unless we limited Him:

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

You are the one to try to make Christ in heaven due to your non-Trinitarian thinking.

Your response here makes the discussion even more difficult because we differ on what heaven or heavens means. Ask @bbyrd009 what and where heaven is?

And I stated my opinion concerning the mirror issue.

We are incapable of seeing everything clearly. All we can do is grasp pieces.

Even if all we do is grasp pieces, cannot each touch of the Master's hand clarify our view! Don't limit God's ability to improve our vision! A negative faith will also accomplish things, but probably not the best of things:

"Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you." Matt 9:29

Consider the faith of the hypocrites as per Jesus here:

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matt 6:5

How much more clearly we will see in eternity I do not know. I just know it will never be with the clarity that God can see.

Again you limit God's ability to improve us here and now and/or you have decided that no one is or can be "in eternity" before some apparently precise [to you?] date or hour. Why is this so? Is God not able?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

Then again you declare that Jesus God so then...

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" Col 1:27

If He is God and He is within us, what it there that He cannot do within us?

And from what I've read I believe the Angels could see more clearly than we can, but not as clearly as God.

If you had read my recent reply to @bbyrd009 elsewhere on the forum in past couple of days you would realize that again you are not communicating well to me with regard to angels. When two people differ on too many different things as to what they know, or believe, or lean toward, communication can be nigh onto impossible.

 

[CoreIssue]

I don't disagree completely that an understanding of all things may be necessary to be able to correctly even discuss all things. I am unable to discuss the whole of the scriptures on this thread. Probably you are also so limited... but the limits are ours, not God's, unless we limited Him:
The Bible makes it clear if you have a different God, Christ and/or gospel you cannot be saved.

There is no way to understand God not understand the incarnation.

A non-Trinitarian God belief is incapable of understanding the God of the Bible. There is no understanding of Elohim, Trinity and the relationship of Christ with the father and the Holy Spirit.

Why, because of the belief in Modalism.

 

[friend of]

Now I realize that basically nobody understands what I'm talking about. But that is the way of it. The kingdom of God can be perceived by spiritual faculties...the most powerful of which is sight.

I would have thought faith would be more powerful a spiritual faculty than sight tbh.

Also, why are you the only one capable of understanding what you're talking about?

2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.

 

[CoreIssue]

I would have thought faith would be more powerful a spiritual faculty than sight tbh.

Also, why are you the only one capable of understanding what you're talking about?

2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.

Because he has let it slip before he sees himself as a prophet was six gifts of the Holy Spirit.

He talks a lot of Gnosticism. Meaning he understands things no one else does.

A total avoidance that everybody has at least one gift of the Spirit without any single gift given to every.

And that there can be people on this forum with more than one gift of the Holy Spirit.

Such people do not go around bragging popping themselves up as elites.

 

[Episkopos]

I would have thought faith would be more powerful a spiritual faculty than sight tbh.

Also, why are you the only one capable of understanding what you're talking about?

2 Peter 1:20
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things.

Faith sees. That is what faith does.

I'm not the only one that has seen by the Spirit...but it is very rare since nobody is talking about it. And the resistance to real faith is very pronounced in this time of lawlessness.
There is more to eternal life than just reading about it in the bible.

 

[CoreIssue]

Faith sees. That is what faith does.

I'm not the only one that has seen by the Spirit...but it is very rare since nobody is talking about it. And the resistance to real faith is very pronounced in this time of lawlessness.
There is more to eternal life than just reading about it in the bible.

Eternal life requires no more than faith.

Why do you pile on works?

Faith does not see. It trusts.

Gifts of the Holy Spirit allow us to see. But not everyone sees the same way because no gift is given to everyone.

 

[friend of]

I'm not the only one that has seen by the Spirit...but it is very rare since nobody is talking about it.

Maybe we have but you're just overcomplicating things? Idk. I can't say I understand for certain what you mean here.

 

[amadeus]

@CoreIssue

CoreIssue said: The Bible makes it clear if you have a different God, Christ and/or gospel you cannot be saved.

If your beliefs were completely right according to God then you might be right, but you have already admitted that both you and I have an incomplete grasp. While it is incomplete, only God is always able to exactly and correctly fill in any gaps as per:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

There is no way to understand God not understand the incarnation.

And you are certain that this understanding of yours is not part of your incompleteness in your understanding of God? How so?

A non-Trinitarian God belief is incapable of understanding the God of the Bible. There is no understanding of Elohim, Trinity and the relationship of Christ with the father and the Holy Spirit.

And you know this because God gave or personal revelation or did you draw such a conclusion based on sensory perceptions and studies of a man? Jesus told where the truth is to be encountered... and it is NOT through study:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

Why, because of the belief in Modalism.

And is this even a scriptural statement or conclusion based on what men have decided over the centuries? Does the Holy Ghost take a back seat to the conclusions of a well studied Bible student?

 

[CoreIssue]

@CoreIssue

If your beliefs were completely right according to God then you might be right, but you have already admitted that both you and I have an incomplete grasp. While it is incomplete, only God is always able to exactly and correctly fill in any gaps as per:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33


And you are certain that this understanding of yours is not part of your incompleteness in your understanding of God? How so?


And you know this because God gave or personal revelation or did you draw such a conclusion based on sensory perceptions and studies of a man? Jesus told where the truth is to be encountered... and it is NOT through study:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26


And is this even a scriptural statement or conclusion based on what men have decided over the centuries? Does the Holy Ghost take a back seat to the conclusions of a well studied Bible student?

Of course my knowledge is incomplete. Everyone's is.

There are things the Bible spell out clearly that there is no excuse to pretend it is not clear.

You cannot show me anyone in the Bible that depended 100% on the Holy Spirit because we are commanded to study the Bible as well as pray and listen to the Holy Spirit.

 

[amadeus]

Of course my knowledge is incomplete. Everyone's is.

There are things the Bible spell out clearly that there is no excuse to pretend it is not clear.

You cannot show me anyone in the Bible that depended 100% on the Holy Spirit because we are commanded to study the Bible as well as pray and listen to the Holy Spirit.

Without dependence upon the Holy Spirit who will ever be an overcomer qualified to partake of the Tree of Life? You deny the power of God to do anything in and through us as we permit Him to work. We must permit Him to work because He gave us with what man calls "free will", the ability to disagree with or disbelieve God Himself. When we do, we quench the Holy Spirit which means the very power of God within us...

 

[CoreIssue]

Without dependence upon the Holy Spirit who will ever be an overcomer qualified to partake of the Tree of Life? You deny the power of God to do anything in and through us as we permit Him to work. We must permit Him to work because He gave us with what man calls "free will", the ability to disagree with or disbelieve God Himself. When we do, we quench the Holy Spirit which means the very power of God within us...

When did I ever say to disregard the Holy Spirit? Never.

The problem is you are disregarding commands for us to study the Scriptures.

 

[amadeus]

When did I ever say to disregard the Holy Spirit? Never.

The problem is you are disregarding commands for us to study the Scriptures.

I do not disregard any such commands if there are any. On the contrary, I continue to seek God's will in everything. I continue to strive to immerse myself in the Holy Spirit all of the time. That is to say 24/7!

I thought that I did explain to you previously my belief with regard to studying. The consequences of study, even of the scriptures, for a man NOT led by the Holy Spirit are found here:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

The verse you and others lean on in support of studying is usually this one:

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

Notice the reason given to study is NOT in order to learn, but rather to obtain God's approval. This is the "eating of His Flesh" mentioned by Jesus here:

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you" John 6:53

His Flesh is the dry dead scriptures which when studied without the Holy Spirit bring into play the result according to Ecc 12:12. Anyone who has read with difficulty some parts of scripture understand that it may be hard or even impossible to focus for long on what is written. But, in the John 6:53 verse quoted it also says "drink his blood". The blood is the life giving and keeping fluid of the physical bodies of men and the lower animals. The Holy Spirit is the Life giving [quickening] Blood of Jesus within the connected members of the Body of Christ. Without it no member may be a member. Without it no member will have real Life, the Life which Jesus brought in abundance. Studying the scriptures without the quickening power of the Holy Spirit working in a person, the person will NOT learn God's message. Too many people study the scriptures leaning heavily on themselves and their own intellect instead of on God. This is the quenching of the Spirit of which Paul warns for the best of reasons. That most church groups [all of them perhaps in some measure] practice quenching the Spirit, causes the disagreements and the break-ups into new splinter groups or denominations. People here, a small group compared to the entirety of Christendom [so-called by men] are an easy to see sample of radically different and sometime seemingly diametrically opposed doctrines supported by those calling themselves followers of Christ or Christians.

Along with those verses also consider what Solomon wrote here:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones." Prov 3:5-8

A man studying alone by his own brainpower alone is lost and cannot find himself anywhere but in delusion.

 

[bbyrd009]

There are things the Bible spell out clearly that there is no excuse to pretend it is not clear.

amen
No Son of MAn may die for another's sins
There is only One Immortal
No one has ever gone up to heaven
which of these is not clear? The first one, maybe? Isnt Christ a "Father" to us?

The problem is you are disregarding commands for us to study the Scriptures.

the problem is there is no such command i guess, but you are welcome to try and Quote it. Fwiw i'd start at Paul's "all..." and go from there maybe. "all" what? When you answer "Scripture," you are off the rails I guess, pretty weird huh. i'm gathering this is not for you now, but wadr you cannot Quote that just like "to be absent from the body..." cannot be Quoted? And these end up more or less defining our walk, right?

We come here to mostly in this venue talk about our various hallucinations about tomorrow I guess, but see you are quite liable to find yourself humming When We All Get to Heaven today right?

 

[bbyrd009]

A man studying alone by his own brainpower alone is lost and cannot find himself anywhere but in delusion.

ya, you can only make God in your own image that way i guess. What a shocking hypocrisy it is to call yourself a literalist and then go read the Bible in English only imo