Grace

[amadeus]

And it would appear that you did not understand how Episkopos tried to undermine the meaning of grace. So tell me what I did not understand? Or do you agree with him that grace is NOT divine favor?

I agree that you misunderstand what he means.

 

[Nancy]

Could it be that the flesh of the man, Jesus, really felt deserted? I know already the counter arguments that some will make here, but the ones that most insist on scripture will probably be hard put to support their ideas with scriptures. Rather simply more of this kind of response: "Believe because I do and because the majority of main stream Protestants do. No beliefs of cults [and anyone who disagrees is part of a cult] will be considered".

Hi John,
This is what I believe too...that it was the "human" part of Jesus that felt deserted. I used to say to myself, 'well, He had to experience what we should have and, I can sure see myself saying that , lol

 

[amadeus]

Hi John,
This is what I believe too...that it was the "human" part of Jesus that felt deserted. I used to say to myself, 'well, He had to experience what we should have and, I can sure see myself saying that , lol

The human part also did not want to suffer and die as we see when he prays in the garden of Gethsemene three times for His Father to remove the "cup" that would be his to drink.

 

[complete]

'This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation,
that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.
Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy,
that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering,
for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting.
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible,
the only wise God,
be honour and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.'
(1Timothy 1:15-17)

Hello there,@soul man & co.,

The shewing forth of all long-suffering, by God, towards Paul, was a pattern, and what it wished to convey is that if God could save one, whom, by his own admission, was considered to be 'the chief' of sinners, having persecuted the church of God, then He could save anyone. That Divine long-suffering shown towards Paul, is what God, in His mercy and grace, shows to all men.

* Paul also uses the word, 'pattern,' again, to Titus in (Titus 2:7-8):-

'In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works:
in doctrine shewing :-
.. un-corruptness,
.... gravity,
...... sincerity,
........ sound speech,
.......... that cannot be condemned;
that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed,
having no evil thing to say of you.'

* God's long-suffering and grace, shown towards Paul, and towards ourselves, should be reflected in the manner of life that we live, as those who have been raised from the dead, and now walk before the Father in newness of life, in Christ Jesus.

^ However the good works highlighted in the verse above is regarding doctrine particularly, isn't it? Those qualities listed are to be reflected in the doctrine we hold and seek to make known. Why? :-

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible,
the only wise God,
be honour and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.'

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yet it rains on the evil and the good, no?

I'm minded whenever i read some discourse on grace that we always seem to want to be applying it to ourselves, and rarely seek to extend it to others, not disagreeing with you here though. Ntmy btw :)

Ha! I'm minded every time I read a discourse on anything that we should always try very hard to keep trying to return to the simplicity of Christ.

If trying to explain what some word means, if you can do it in one word, just boil it down, that's exceedingly good. If you can do it in five or six, you've still nailed it.

I like epi's definition of grace - kindness and empowerment.

Faith can be got to one word in my opinion - trust.

If we can at all help to keep returning to the simplicity that is in Christ, I'm all for it!

Epi helped me the other day with a phrase I always heard but just sighed and moaned whenever I heard it: not my faith but the faith OF Christ. Eight words can bring my mind to chaos. No joke. At some point he said: the same radical trust Jesus had. He pinned it down from 8 to 6 words and for the first time , I grasped it!

 

[complete]

'And the angel came in unto her, and said,
"Hail, thou that art highly favoured,
the Lord is with thee:
blessed art thou among women."
(Luke 1:28)

Hello @Episkopos,

The word translated, 'highly favoured', in the verse above, is G5487 - Gr. 'charitoo', meaning 'to make accepted', or, 'to be highly favoured': it is found again only in Ephesians 1:6, in relation to those who have been saved by grace, and made - 'accepted' - in the Beloved:-

'To the praise of the glory of His grace,
wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.'
​

* How precious this is!

* So in regard to the application of the word GRACE, in relation to Mary (Luke 1:28), or to the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:26), it does not have the meaning that you have ascribed to it.

* To me, to be 'accepted in the Beloved' is the most wonderful gift to have been given: and I consider myself to be indeed 'highly favoured' or 'much graced', to have been so blessed.

Praise God! - Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[bbyrd009]

But where the word came from and what people use it for now are hardly the same, are they? To be in a cult now is according to the way many bearing the name "Christian" use it is an evil place to be. Of course, when we consider how many bearing the name "Christian" manifest themselves [in un-Christ-like manners?], we could have a problem with that usage [Christian label] as well.

the illustration of Esau literally inheriting and Jacob returning as supplicant to him, and then only being destroyed later for not allowing Jacob to pass through, made no sense to me anyway for the longest time, but now it is starting to clarify i think. It's a problem i guess if we let it be a problem, but there's um gold in them thar hills too i guess right. When a believer uses "cult" like that you pretty much know right away right.

So, many will be deceived but at the same time if we didn't have Mithraism in Christianity i doubt i would even be here! What did you go out into the wilderness to see? plays into that i guess. What first led (you) to attend a cong iow?

I should learn your shorthand my friend as it may turn out to be a better means of communication.

ah, ha. I guess it comes off as an affectation sometimes, and sometimes it comes out wrong, like with fhii the other day, but despite the fact that i actually can write complete, legible English sentences, this works better as a rule for some weird reason.

It actually takes longer and requires more review though, it's a pain sometimes tbh, ok all the time, but then it also works as a kind of buffer, if the other is not fam with some pertinent snip that i am using see i would usually just as soon not engage with them anyway, meaning that they would prolly just as soon not engage with me anyway i guess, and i get to find out if they have eaten what is it? yet by their initial response usually?

 

[bbyrd009]

* So in regard to the application of the word GRACE, in relation to Mary (Luke 1:28), or to the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:26), it does not have the meaning that you have ascribed to it.

* To me, to be 'accepted in the Beloved' is the most wonderful gift to have been given: and I consider myself to be indeed 'highly favoured' or 'much graced', to have been so blessed.

ha well i guess i got in that other line like twice or something charity lol, grace is not one of my strong points i guess huh, which is why i've learned to not talk in public if i can help it, and i try to keep sincere apologies handy in her too, but i tagged you to say that Epi makes a very good observation at that passage imo, in which grace will like change up on one at some point, which can even be teased out of the passage by applying the um "stay here for the present" principle is the only way i know how to say it? By reading from another pov iow? Grace turns, from a gift that has been bestowed on us "for free," into the reason we are "highly favored," because we have found grace?

Which i guess can still be phrased as "a gift" Bc it is so difficult to find, but at the same time as you say you have it and i already know i lack it it might be mostly a like claiming thing, dunno. Seems like not, but that is a grey area to me

So anyway my point was that you say it does not have that meaning, but i wouldn't be chipping that onto a tablet just yet lol, i mean unless you're sure and you know? For a um fact?

 

[soul man]

'And the angel came in unto her, and said,
"Hail, thou that art highly favoured,
the Lord is with thee:
blessed art thou among women."
(Luke 1:28)

Hello @Episkopos,

The word translated, 'highly favoured', in the verse above, is G5487 - Gr. 'charitoo', meaning 'to make accepted', or, 'to be highly favoured': it is found again only in Ephesians 1:6, in relation to those who have been saved by grace, and made - 'accepted' - in the Beloved:-

'To the praise of the glory of His grace,
wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.'
​

* How precious this is!

* So in regard to the application of the word GRACE, in relation to Mary (Luke 1:28), or to the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:26), it does not have the meaning that you have ascribed to it.

* To me, to be 'accepted in the Beloved' is the most wonderful gift to have been given: and I consider myself to be indeed 'highly favoured' or 'much graced', to have been so blessed.

Praise God! - Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

The ultimate of God's grace can be defined in time as we grow to understand all the things grace is. Grace will be seen as a person, for example; as you so eloquently quoted out of Ephesians 1 and being "in the beloved." Being in Christ now as christians, we can see verses like these and know they are in Christ statements. So being in the beloved is more than just belonging to a group, it all has come about by Christ or by being in Christ now. Nothing can be seperated from the in Christ statement, Paul uses some form of it over two hundred times, by Christ, through Christ, in whom, by whom, and so on. It is a literal placement brought about by a birthing (born again), there is no Christianity if there is no "birthing."

Ok said all that to say now we see grace the same way, as a person, and that person is in you, Christ in you the hope of glory, would be the ultimate understanding of the grace of God. Seeing Christ alive in you and every born again believer. That cuts through everything, my doctrine your doctrine, Paul was so simple in his definition "if I live it's Christ."

 

[bbyrd009]

Ha! I'm minded every time I read a discourse on anything that we should always try very hard to keep trying to return to the simplicity of Christ.

Hmm. You'd think so, huh? But wadr I came that you might have life, more abundantly is...causes a lot of problems for believers, imo? Dunno how to illustrate except what did you go out into the wilderness to see? keeps coming up, third time today for me and been coming up a couple times a week? We don't apply this Q to ourselves much do we

 

[Nancy]

Ha! I'm minded every time I read a discourse on anything that we should always try very hard to keep trying to return to the simplicity of Christ.

If trying to explain what some word means, if you can do it in one word, just boil it down, that's exceedingly good. If you can do it in five or six, you've still nailed it.

I like epi's definition of grace - kindness and empowerment.

Faith can be got to one word in my opinion - trust.

If we can at all help to keep returning to the simplicity that is in Christ, I'm all for it!

Epi helped me the other day with a phrase I always heard but just sighed and moaned whenever I heard it: not my faith but the faith OF Christ. Eight words can bring my mind to chaos. No joke. At some point he said: the same radical trust Jesus had. He pinned it down from 8 to 6 words and for the first time , I grasped it!

Oh you gotta be kidding me!! "not my faith but the faith OF Christ." I read this last night and did the inner head shake and just moved on because I did not understand it!
I say faith and trust are pretty much the same thing too.

 

[bbyrd009]

Its Jane actually.

Ah, hmm. I guess God could be characterized as a "She" too, but i would prefer to stick with no male or female in the kingdom and John wadr at least in forums, even for you, so as not to run into translation or interp probs later? If that makes any sense

 

[bbyrd009]

Oh you gotta be kidding me!! "not my faith but the faith OF Christ." I read this last night and did the inner head shake and just moved on because I did not understand it!
I say faith and trust are pretty much the same thing too.

thing is imo they do start that way, but...um, they don't finish that way, imo. See Bc you can say that you know you are going up to heaven when you die, and i can maybe still trust you just fine? But i have no faith in that any more. Not a very good example i guess, sorry, i'll hopefully be back with a better one

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, perhaps representing what a true believer in God should be doing... loving God seemingly without the presence of God as a witness. Everyone wants the advertised rewards without being willing to give or even to be the necessary sacrifice.

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." Rom 12:1

nice, i agree. A way to point to Nehushtan worship covertly, that can be and i guess is even deliberately constructed to be misinterpreted should one prefer? And i mean you can't even see it until it just like appears one day, huh? I read that passage the same way everyone else did for like forty years lol, then alla sudden a light bulb went off or something, dunno. My bs meter just pegged one day, reading that, and i guess recollecting now it messed me up pretty good for a while, like more than a month

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh you gotta be kidding me!! "not my faith but the faith OF Christ." I read this last night and did the inner head shake and just moved on because I did not understand it!
I say faith and trust are pretty much the same thing too.

I know, right?? Like all that time of struggling to understand what it meant and then just wanting to barf every time I heard the phrase, and then one person puts it in their own words and will spend the time trying to explain it and bang, you understand what is meant when the phrase is used.

And this is weird, but something odd happens in reverse, sort of. You can post a verse and people nod their heads in agreement and say, oh yep, uh huh, sure sure!

But don't post the verse and rather put it in your own words and they will argue with you...!

But in the case of: the faith OF Christ, it is actually a verse, but it does me no good unless I can understand what it means! And I think some repeat it without understanding it...

 

[bbyrd009]

And it would appear that you did not understand how Episkopos tried to undermine the meaning of grace. So tell me what I did not understand? Or do you agree with him that grace is NOT divine favor?

I get why you say that and i would maybe suggest that you forgive Epi the less than perfect presentation, which might be perceived as trashing your current def of grace, in order to arrive at a more complete understanding of the term?

Bc who really "gets" grace anyway right? Did you "get" it? Did Charity? I can't tell, and wouldn't hardly know the diff myself, Bc "grace" is a like a social thing that ppl do that i just do not..."get" at all, i guess obviously, prolly seems deliberate a lot huh? but it isn't.

 

[bbyrd009]

I know, right?? Like all that time of struggling to understand what it meant and then just wanting to barf every time I heard the phrase, and then one person puts it in their own words and will spend the time trying to explain it and bang, you understand what is meant when the phrase is used.

just as lightning flashes from east to west...

And this is weird, but something odd happens in reverse, sort of. You can post a verse and people nod their heads in agreement and say, oh yep, uh huh, sure sure!

But don't post the verse and rather put it in your own words and they will argue with you...!

But in the case of: the faith OF Christ, it is actually a verse, but it does me no good unless I can understand what it means! And I think some repeat it without understanding it...

if they can't put it in their own words prolly not, huh. But that's how kids learn i guess too, that's how i'm learning right now iow, etc

and i guess if you get a "no" after you put it in your own words, well then you have a clear sign of where you are, at?

"heart poked" lol, guess if he keeps arguing with women and don't learn that's gonna be = to a Love Tap here pretty soon huh lol

 

[Episkopos]

And it would appear that you did not understand how Episkopos tried to undermine the meaning of grace. So tell me what I did not understand? Or do you agree with him that grace is NOT divine favor?

I am upholding true grace by seeking to eliminate the human pitfalls associated with a misappropriation of grace....a grace that serves the carnal fallen man...as opposed to the true grace that lifts mankind out of the pit and the miry clay. True grace lets a man walk as He was created to walk...and now restored in Christ Jesus.

​

People can easily get things wrong. It says so in the bible. In your case you are doing all the obvious things...taking everything at face value...but judging from appearances. Spiritual things go deeper than human thoughts and what humans can formulate in themselves. So you are trying to understand in too many dimensions with your 4 pound brain...and then throwing a hizzy fit when you can't fathom the depth of God's work.​

There is a way that SEEMS right to a man...but that is the way of death.

If you had more patience (which of course would mean more grace on your part) you could look deeper into what you only have a very superficial grasp upon.

Of course grace is an empowerment from God.

But what are we going to DO with it. Assuming of course we have any idea what grace from heaven is like. This life is like a big training course. MOST will fail the harder judgment of being an intimate of God. It takes some teamwork (Body ministry) to get through the training in fine form.

Many more will be saved, apart from the narrow holiness walk, because they fear the Lord, they trust, they allow the Lord to do His will. To be saved in the good sense (without shame) means that we have to stop judging from ourselves.

But you can only do that...judge from yourself. Judges will be judged very hard. The wise leave the judgment to God. So I am asking you, for your sake, to stop judging everything I am writing so quickly. Compare the bible with the bible...and even spiritual with spiritual. Stop getting angry at me for posting bible verses you don't like. Go after the bible verses themselves...not me.

As Jesus said, let he that is without sin cast the first stone.

So you aren't paying attention here. You assume and presume. Without patience, love, grace or any kind of obedience to the bible you say you follow.

Grace seeks to bring others into the same blessings as himself/herself. NOT the same doctrinal bent. That's religion. You know like the Pharisees...as you are doing in spades.

 

[Nancy]

I know, right?? Like all that time of struggling to understand what it meant and then just wanting to barf every time I heard the phrase, and then one person puts it in their own words and will spend the time trying to explain it and bang, you understand what is meant when the phrase is used.

And this is weird, but something odd happens in reverse, sort of. You can post a verse and people nod their heads in agreement and say, oh yep, uh huh, sure sure!

But don't post the verse and rather put it in your own words and they will argue with you...!

But in the case of: the faith OF Christ, it is actually a verse, but it does me no good unless I can understand what it means! And I think some repeat it without understanding it...

Oh for sure, some just want to be right all the time. And we KNOW they are NOT, lol. There is so very much to decipher in His Word! It is like a treasure hunt, and when the light-bulb comes on....amazing ♥

 

[Nancy]

thing is imo they do start that way, but...um, they don't finish that way, imo. See Bc you can say that you know you are going up to heaven when you die, and i can maybe still trust you just fine? But i have no faith in that any more. Not a very good example i guess, sorry, i'll hopefully be back with a better one

I'm thinking that we just might be allowed to SEE and VISIT heaven at least once when we "come back" with Jesus on white horses - and that is biblical...do think it is not literal maybe? I could def have the wrong interp. there. I do believe in an afterlife for Christians to be on the New Earth. Dunno for sure but, it is where time has lead my thoughts and beliefs.