Why evil?
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If I didn't know she was with Jesus . . . well, I'm so glad she is!
I've learned too . . . suffering is an amazing tool in God's hand.
Why evil? I don't know. Just that man is corrupt at heart.
Suffering, on the other hand, which is to say, evil's impact on our lives, seems to have a clear purpose in proving to the believer who they are in Christ.
Much love!
Mark
Note that the passages you cite are all from the OT. The Hebrews were accustomed to thinking that their relationship with God INCLUDED physical salvation from danger, foes and calamity--IN THIS LIFE. When it didn't happen, it was usually because of sin among them. They were promised that they would prosper in the Land--IF they obeyed. When they did not, they suffered the terrible consequences.
We, in the Church were given no such guarantees. Jesus told us that we would have trouble in this life. He also said that if even He was not spared, why would we think we should be? God has mercy on whoever He has mercy. That is a principle stated very early in Torah. We can (and should) pray always for mercy--but it is still God's sovereign will which decides the fate of every single human soul. In general, those who are God's children, enjoy His favor. Even a Communist Chinese professor (a few years ago now) wrote a paper on how beneficial Christianity had been in the Western nations--in terms of strength and prosperity. He only looked at the material blessings to be obtained in this world, but we know that the promises given to the Church are infinitely better in the life after this life is over. God told the Apostle Paul, when he complained about his "thorn in the flesh" that salvation was enough of a blessing. If Christians would concentrate not on this world, we would likely be much better off. Yes?
I have heard or read this previously. Presuming the state of Israel which exists today is the same one mentioned in prophecy it might fit, but I haven't fitted together enough of the pieces of the puzzle yet to make any definite statement.
What God allows may not be understood, especially by people who have recently lost a loved one. There is understanding to be had, and God sometimes shares it, but I would never call a seemingly early death evil. We all know that death of the flesh is coming to us. We should also know that each has only a certain allotted period of time.
Why does a baby or teenager die while another lives to be 110? God does know and to call it evil because someone was not given more time is unfathomable unless God has let us know more...
Our time with God on a basis to face basis [if we attain to it] is not to be limited to 70 or 80 or even 120 years. That period of time or any other one, of greater or lesser duration, given to a person is what it is and is determined by God. Should we tempt God with rationales as to why He is wrong? Job wanted to do that but at the end he shut his mouth.
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Excellent post, Lady. I did a half hour search with the words evil, wickedness, harm, and others to see if I could uncover Scriptures in the NT that state the same thing as Psalms. What I noticed were promises to care for us as Jesus does the birds and lillies if we decide not to take thought for those things. If two or more agree on anything, we are encouraged to ask what we will and it shall be done for us. We can say to a mountain to be removed. If we abide in Him we can ask what we will and it shall be done for us....all of which are prosperity gospel references we've all heard countless times which have been refuted by much of the earliest followers of that line of thinking.
You do make a very interesting point which bears consideration. Thanks for sharing the differences you see between the OT and NT passages. It does tempt one to toss out OT promises, which I won't do until my view is built on more searching.
So are you going say that man's definition of "good" will overlay God's? God's definition is God Himself. How well do we know Him and understand Him. Are you or am I past where Paul was when he spoke of seeing as through a glass darkly now with the face to face being then? How is it that we are to go about killing the "old man"? Are we not then to kill in spite of the verse you cited about not murdering?
"Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:" Col 3:5
To mortify means to put to death! Until we have killed him completely are we not at rick to succumbing to temptation and sinning again...? But:
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." Rom 8:13
It sounds to me like it through the Holy Spirit in us that we are to kill the "old man".
When we have then perhaps we also know all of the answers to questions as to what good is and what evil is? We should know that the "good" is God. Anything without God...?
That's not to say that some OT passages were/are not binding on both Old Covenant people AND New Covenant people of God. There really isn't anything new in terms of what God considers to be sin. Sin is still doing things which He has declared to be sin from a long time ago.
Hi amadeus,
I'm not sure what you mean with this question. I wasn't planning on writing those words, no.
On this I can give you a more certain answer, Scripture tells us.
Galatians 2:19-20 “For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
Romans 6:6-7 "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin."
God is teaching here of our baptism into Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. As Jesus raised from the dead, so we walk in newness of life.
Having been crucified with Him.
Notice here though, you've put 'killed him' where the Bible says 'your members'. I personally pay close attention to these things in the Bible. We should not
Oh. I just figured out why my Bible quotes didn't read right . . . their the NIV. So be it.
We should not think of our old man - the man of Adam's line - as still living. We have crucifed the old man of flesh already, and now we are to put off it's behaviors and thoughts and all. We have been reborn from God, righteous and holy, without any bond or tie or obligation or anything to that old man, to whom we are dead.
Alas! I think we're getting a little off the OP!
Much love!
VictoryinJesus
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I’m so sorry to read of your sister’s sufferings. Her quote you shared says a lot and while I do not understand why all the suffering is...meaning sometimes I ask Him how He endures seeing all of the pain His children go through...there is great Hope in the promise that your sister has not perished. Without Him we would all perish as the outward and the world does so quickly pass away. The Hope is cancer did not have its victory over Christ in your(our) Sister but instead His is the victory over death and is the Hope of better things that do not pass away but remain unshakable. Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
VictoryinJesus
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Thank you for the link. Her trust in Christ was a comfort to read.
“This doesn't necessarily mean what is in the Spirit is obligated to overflow to the flesh. Is that what you mean?” Not sure what you are asking...if I understand correctly I would say no. The outward which is perishing; that which was and is crucified and put under His feet and under subjection is not the focus. Yes...the inward is renewed daily.
I was just reading last night in Hebrews 12, this word yet once more signifies the removal of that which can be shaken, that is, things that are made. As opposed to . . . those who were born.
All of the original creation removed, only that which is born of God remaining. And then a new creation.
My way of thinking about God and the human condition, well, God is the One Who subjected creation to futility, meaninglessness. And He did this so that we would fear Him.
As you've mentioned, the present time is only that, not to be compared. So what happens here should not be regarded as what happens there.
A father takes his son into the mountains, backpacking 2 weeks in, 2 weeks out, but, the son falls, his arm breaks. The father splints his son's arm, and gets him off the mountain. It still takes a week, and the arm has begun to set, but crookedly. What has to happen, to prevent this boy from being crippled? The man takes his son to the doctor, who breaks the boys arm, but not for evil, instead, to reset the break, to bring healing.
Is the evil in my life my loving Father making me whole? I believe so.
There was a time I had severe and untractable nerve pain. And I had to ask myself, is this truly for my good? Did I really believe that?
I realized that this was just a fraction of the pain I suppose that Jesus endured on the cross. And if I could have stopped it, I would have. Jesus could have, but He didn't, because of His love for me. I learned, in my pain, the meaning of His pain. It proves His love for me.
To take up my cross and follow Him is to obey even though it bring suffering, up to and including death.
Much love!
@marks
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18
To me that means that anyone who really is good in a measure has in the measure some of God in him. God is good and that which he created is good.
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31
Men moved away from God and misused what He created "good" making many things, including themselves, fall short of God's desire for them.
Have we been crucified with Him already [past tense ]or are we being crucified with Him now [present tense]? The work of Jesus in himself as a man in order to be the Head of the Body of Christ is done, but is ours complete before we have completed our course and before we have overcome the world? Jesus overcame only his world, the world of his flesh which tempted him to sin. We continue to be tempted and all of those temptations must be overcome in each of us [our world] as well. Jesus and the Holy Ghost made that a possibility where it had been an impossibility.
"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1
"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16
The old man is NOT living even as all the people who have not met Jesus and received Life are not living... but still the walk around like the zombies that they are seeking to regain the mastery over that was lost in the measure that any of us have overcome. The old man cannot win against the power of God in us... but if we quench the Holy Spirit in us, we will lose and return to the vomit of our old ways of sin.
A person who makes habit of quenching the Holy Spirit in him is a fool.
"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly." Prov 26:11
That happens sometimes.
Give God the glory!
What I meant was many people presume that the definition that they or other people have put on the word, good, are exactly the same as God's. They most certainly are not. In the scripture it is written that only God is good. As I see man in general does not believe that and too often "Christians" use a man's definition and end up going on a tangent from the right pathway.
"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18
To me that means that anyone who really is good in a measure has in the measure some of God in him. God is good and that which he created is good.
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31
Men moved away from God and misused what He created "good" making many things, including themselves, fall short of God's desire for them.
Have we been crucified with Him already [past tense ]or are we being crucified with Him now [present tense]? The work of Jesus in himself as a man in order to be the Head of the Body of Christ is done, but is ours complete before we have completed our course and before we have overcome the world? Jesus overcame only his world, the world of his flesh which tempted him to sin. We continue to be tempted and all of those temptations must be overcome in each of us [our world] as well. Jesus and the Holy Ghost made that a possibility where it had been an impossibility.
We still have battles going on within us until all of the members making up the old man have been finally defeated [killed and/or burned up]. This is what is seen in the type or shadow of the three Hebrews thrown into Nebuchanezzar's fiery furnace [Daniel 3] where the Hebrews survived but the ropes that bound them were gone.
"From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?" James 4:1
"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16
The old man is NOT living even as all the people who have not met Jesus and received Life are not living... but still the walk around like the zombies that they are seeking to regain the mastery over that was lost in the measure that any of us have overcome. The old man cannot win against the power of God in us... but if we quench the Holy Spirit in us, we will lose and return to the vomit of our old ways of sin.
A person who makes habit of quenching the Holy Spirit in him is a fool.
"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly." Prov 26:11
That happens sometimes.
Give God the glory!
The passage gives this as a past tense, so I'm good with that.
I think we need to pay attention to these things, lest we drift from our course of understanding, lest we find that where we've arrived isn't where the Bible was leading us.
On a practical level, I really here to discuss what the Bible says, and I think first we need to agree on what it does say, and then move on to what it means.
"crucified together with", Galatians 2:19, is the Perfect Tense Passive Voice, so this is saying that it is something that has happened, once for all time, done to us.
Now, you can assert that Paul only describes himself in this, but that argument cannot be used in Romans 6:
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Our old man is crucified with Him. In this passage, "crucified together with Him", aorist, passive, alread happened, done to us. This passage clarifies that this speaking of those who have been baptized into Christ.
So since these are in the past tense, does this affect your conclusions?
Much love!
No, as my conclusions are not based on grammar or the proper versus improper tenses or translations. I have
studied both Spanish and German with three semesters of Latin thrown in for good measure. I have been reading my Bibles daily in Spanish, German and English for many years to keep up the languages and for perspective, but grammatical knowledge and in depth knowledge of the original languages, while useful, will NOT answer all of our questions nor will it alone give us God's message(s) to us. The Holy Spirit has to be involved or we will never progress toward God.
But with your tense problem what is that to a God for whom time, as I believe it, has no hold. You should read some of the posts on this forum by our friend @Scott A about these things... or ask him about God and time. Time is for men and men writing even under the anointing of God are limited by the languages of men because none of those languages will tell us anything about God if we pursue the information in the wrong spirit or for the wrong reasons. Every language of man is a mess and communication is at times between people who supposedly speak the same languages is quite difficult if not impossible. That is common occurrence on this forum.
But again with the tense if you want to check it more closely than you are already able check with someone on here with a real knowledge of the original languages and do go on from there if you believe it would matter to you. There is more than one such person on the forum and probably they will be reading some of these posts. I have talked to them but my mind doesn't work well in remembering for sure who they are. One I have heard about more recently is @Episkopos
Hi amadeus,
I don't actually see this as a tense problem. I find that when I accept the Bible for what it says, I find not only that I draw so much closer to God, and to remain in the walk in the Spirit, but my worldview becomes informed, my relationships are improved, all good things result.
And I wonder that God would be so intent to connect with His creation as to not only step into it Himself, to live among us, but organized the writing of over so many years a Book, unlike any other book, why?
So that we can endlessly bicker over who's got this spiritual interpretation, or who has that revelation, because everyone knows, it's spiritually discerned, and that means, well, quite frankly, what _________ says it means it means, even if someone else says their revelation is different, and who can know?
Or did He write us a Book, indeed, only understood in the Holy Spirit, just the same, written to be understood, over and over and over, just the same, by all people?
If only we would hold to the Word of God, revealed to us in the Bible! I don't discount what God may say to any one of us. Far be it from me to question whether you've had a vision, or an experience.
But did God not write a Book that can, in print, guide us all into the same knowledge and the same faith, if we conform that faith and that knowledge to what this Book says?
And if not, why not?
Much love!
Sometimes for my own clarification on a doubtful point I will look deeper into the tense or translation, but usually not. Probably even when we do that kind of thing, there is guidance from the Holy Spirit involved if our hearts are right. It is like using a Bible commentary written by some man or men. Much of what they wrote may be correct as God guided their writing. Who am I to reject it all out of hand. Some good people, I believe, simply have not yet learned that simple lesson. We don't suddenly change over to the other guy's way of thinking or believing, but neither should we necessarily reject it all out of hand. However, there is certainly no harm in putting it up on the shelf. One day God may bring it down and hand it to us for our renewed consideration.
All of it is part of His plan. How well do we understand His plan? This understanding that we do have is a part of our vision without which we perish [Prov 29:18]. Is our vision better than as through the darkened glass of which Paul wrote? The clarity will be improving as we grow or darkening as we too often quench His Spirit in us. All the answers are before us, in the Bible, and elsewhere in His creation but what do we see?
"I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see." Rev 3:18
Keep going back to the writings of Solomon in which is one place we can find wisdom from God when it is needed.
"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2
True believers disagree with each other because every one of them, including me, is a mixed bag of the what God has really given him and what he has concluded on his own is also from God. That last may be from God as well... but from the left hand rather than the right hand of God. Everyone that continues to grow in God will come to fit better with others who are also growing in the same directions. We are at different levels in this growth and we are to be different parts of the Body of Christ with different functions which makes a difference to what we need. God always know. Often we do not know ourselves what we need... but we are able to ask of Him and to trust Him.
A whole bunch of people working together in unknown confusion on the tower at Babel were confused by God in order to allow them the opportunity to come to where He wanted them to be. They presumed they were right until He intervened enough to renew their opportunity. How well to you understand all of what is written in scripture? How well do I understand it? Hopefully we are both growing in our understanding but this is not done by study alone. Study alone is another tower of Babel.
He certainly did, but how many Bible scholars have disagreed on what some people name as essential points according to written scripture? Which one should we follow? Back to the lowest room one more time!
I agree that it was written by men as inspired by God, but I also believe that is only correctly understand in every point by men who similarly inspired by the same God in them [the Holy Spirit] on every point of their understanding. Disagreements occur as I have already said due to the mixed bags believers are holding... Again I do not exclude myself from this failing.
I'm amazed how many ppl claim to be able to add to the Word of God through their own experiences and visions!
Psalm 119.105; Psalm 119.89; John 17.17.
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