I wonder where this might lead...

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4Jesus

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The concept of the serpent is very misunderstood. People cannot explain why Moses put a brass serpent on a pole or why Jesus compared himself to that serpent. Perhaps more mysteriously (if I may go New Agey on people), Messiah and serpent both equal 358 using standard gematria.

Moses was instructed by God to put the brass serpent on a pole, in my view, because it was the serpents which bit them and poisoned them, and was now being used by God to heal them. God fixed them, like no other could.

Jesus compared Himself to that serpent, because He was linking their belief at the time of Moses, to Him now - healing them, from death, in this context. God gave a manner by which to be healed, with Jesus once-and-for-all, like back with Moses and the brass serpent on a pole. Serpents were big in Egypt, remember the serpent in Ezekiel 7:12 "For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods." To me, this is saying, that God outdoes what others think is greater (like the brass serpent being greater than serpents that bit Moses' people (healed their poison), like Jesus is greater than the brass serpent, etc).
 
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4Jesus

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Think about it. If antichrist was already in the world when John wrote that epistle, should we believe Revelation is predicting something that already happened? That doesn't make sense to me.

It says "antichrist shall come", which doesn't mean "was already in the world". It does say "many antichrists are come", meaning followers of the antichrist spirit, but not "the" antichrist, which was still to come.
 
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brakelite

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Sorry about that, like I said, I'm not very well versed in all of this. The vision Paul had in 95 A.D. was all written in Revelation and, when he wrote about the evil man coming, he only referred to him as the "false prophet". JMHO :)
Hi again. In Bible prophecy beasts depicted nations or empires...aka the four beasts of Daniel 7 all were empires... Babylon, meda Persia, Greece, Rome. Why would God change the hermeneutic for Revelation? In Revelation we have several beasts, but two specifically in revelation 13. The first one is a composite of the four beasts of Daniel, but is prominently Greek, the leopard. The second beast is a new one, which most Bible students recognise as the false prophet. Now why do people believe these beasts to be individuals? Why can they not be nations/empires like their forbears in the OT?
You will find that if you change your thinking from the expectation of an individual Antichrist to an institution, then things make much better sense, and the timelines become harmonious. I have gone into detail on other threads... Might have to repeat those posts here to give greater clarity. And when considered in conjunction with what had been said so far in this thread, even greater harmony is realised.
 
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Giuliano

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It says "antichrist shall come", which doesn't mean "was already in the world". It does say "many antichrists are come", meaning followers of the antichrist spirit, but not "the" antichrist, which was still to come.
That seems like a stretch to me; but I doubt I could change your mind.
 

Giuliano

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Moses was instructed by God to put the brass serpent on a pole, in my view, because it was the serpents which bit them and poisoned them, and was now being used by God to heal them. God fixed them, like no other could.

Jesus compared Himself to that serpent, because He was linking their belief at the time of Moses, to Him now - healing them, from death, in this context. God gave a manner by which to be healed, with Jesus once-and-for-all, like back with Moses and the brass serpent on a pole. Serpents were big in Egypt, remember the serpent in Ezekiel 7:12 "For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods." To me, this is saying, that God outdoes what others think is greater (like the brass serpent being greater than serpents that bit Moses' people (healed their poison), like Jesus is greater than the brass serpent, etc).
Ah, so serpents can be a good thing if subject to the authority of God. . . .
 
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brakelite

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Think about it. If antichrist was already in the world when John wrote that epistle, should we believe Revelation is predicting something that already happened? That doesn't make sense to me.
If you consider the Antichrist as an institution that began in John's day and is still with us today which is what scripture suggests, then a lot of difficulties are
solved. Many reformers believed the Antichrist to be an institution... Because only an institution could fulfill the criteria demand of the prophecies.
 

Giuliano

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If you consider the Antichrist as an institution that began in John's day and is still with us today which is what scripture suggests, then a lot of difficulties are
solved. Many reformers believed the Antichrist to be an institution... Because only an institution could fulfill the criteria demand of the prophecies.
I don't feel comfortable thinking of "antichrist" except in the context John used it.
 

Prayer Warrior

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That seems like a stretch to me; but I doubt I could change your mind.
Haha, I'm sure you could't. ;) (Nothing against you, 4Jesus.)

I'm very interested to know how you define "astrology."

Ah, so serpents can be a good thing if subject to the authority of God. . . .
The devil is subject to God's authority, but this doesn't make him a "good thing" at all.
 
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Giuliano

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Haha, I'm sure you could't. ;) (Northing against you, 4Jesus.)

I'm very interested to know how you define "astrology."
The lights in Genesis were given for signs and seasons. Studying the constellations can also be constructive. Studying the patterns of signs and seasons can also be constructive. I think understanding the various natures of the sun, moon and planets helps explain things like why the moon is shown under the woman's feet in Revelation. Astrology also helps understand the cherubim and the locusts with odd features in Revelation. Someone with a knowledge of and astrology has a big advantage. It might provide a clue about what "give him the morning star" means.
The devil is subject to God's authority, but this doesn't make him a "good thing" at all.
He serves a purpose. He may not be "good" on his own account; but remember the totality of Eden was pronounced "very good." That would include the serpent, would it not?
 

Prayer Warrior

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The lights in Genesis were given for signs and seasons. Studying the constellations can also be constructive. Studying the patterns of signs and seasons can also be constructive. I think understanding the various natures of the sun, moon and planets helps explain things like why the moon is shown under the woman's feet in Revelation. Astrology also helps understand the cherubim and the locusts with odd features in Revelation. Someone with a knowledge of and astrology has a big advantage. It might provide a clue about what "give him the morning star" means.

The study of the heavens (meaning sun, moon, planets, stars, etc.) as far as God has used them as signs is straight from the Bible. I don't consider this to be astrology. Maybe some people use the term this way. I think this would cause way too much confusion because modern astrology is mystical/occult.

Like I said before, I believe that what John saw and described in Revelation--the woman clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet, etc.--were literal heavenly bodies. He saw what was literally happening in the sky. Of course, this scene had figurative meaning as well.

You really didn't define astrology as you're using it. I assume you accept the New Age/occult emphasis of modern astrology.

So, how do you define "astrology"?
 

Prayer Warrior

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He serves a purpose. He may not be "good" on his own account; but remember the totality of Eden was pronounced "very good." That would include the serpent, would it not?

God didn't "make" the devil in his evil state. God made him good as He made all things good. How do you know the devil was in the Garden when God pronounced all that He had made "good"? (Actually, God said that man was "very good.")
 

Giuliano

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God didn't "make" the devil in his evil state. God made him good as He made all things good. How do you know the devil was in the Garden when God pronounced all that He had made "good"?
Surely the serpent was in the Garden. You don't think he sneaked in without God's knowing it, do you?

Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

(Actually, God said that man was "very good.")
Did God say man was "very good"? My Bible doesn't even have God saying he was "good." He wasn't. Man was created with both good and evil urges.

The phrase "very good" occurs when God looks at everything He had made in its totality.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Some things can be poisons by themselves. Take chlorine and sodium. Either one is highly poisonous separately; but together, they form salt, a compound necessary for life and a sacred symbol.
 

Prayer Warrior

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Surely the serpent was in the Garden. You don't think he sneaked in without God's knowing it, do you?

Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.


According to the verse you quoted, when God pronounced all that he made as good, He was clearly referring to His material (meaning physical) creation, not FALLEN SPIRITS. While some form of a creature that became a snake was part of God's material creation, the devil was not.
 

Giuliano

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The study of the heavens (meaning sun, moon, planets, stars, etc.) as far as God has used them as signs is straight from the Bible. I don't consider this to be astrology.
What do most people know about it? They're afraid to look into it.
Maybe some people use the term this way. I think this would cause way too much confusion because modern astrology is mystical/occult.

Like I said before, I believe that what John saw and described in Revelation--the woman clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet, etc.--were literal heavenly bodies. He saw what was literally happening in the sky. Of course, this scene had figurative meaning as well.
No one is clothed in the physical sun, and no one is standing on the physical moon. Neither is there a physical dragon chasing her around in the physical sky. These are things he saw in his vision but they represent spiritual realities, not physical ones. A knowledge of what is meant by the three heavens is helpful. There is one of fire, one of air, and one of water. Then there is the earth -- our physical plane. A prophet has to use human words to describe things, and the objects he sees spiritually informs me of the spiritual reality. Sometimes this can seem strange. Why did Jeremiah see an almond tree?

11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond tree.
12 Then said the Lord unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten my word to perform it.

The explanation is that almond tree is "shaqed" in Hebrew and "hasten" is "shaqad." This occurs in other places too. This kind of word play occurs in Revelation since the word "virgin" and "city" are related in Hebrew -- both were protected by walls.

You really didn't define astrology as you're using it. I assume you accept the New Age/occult emphasis of modern astrology.

So, how do you define "astrology"?
It means the study of the stars.
 

Giuliano

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According to the verse you quoted, when God pronounced all that he made as good, He was clearly referring to His material (meaning physical) creation, not FALLEN SPIRITS. While some form of a creature that became a snake was part of God's material creation, the devil was not.
I know of no reason to believe Genesis 1 is describing a material creation. None. People can assume it, but they should know better after reading Revelation. They should also know better after reading that Jesus told the thief he would be with him that day in the garden.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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Did God say man was "very good"? My Bible doesn't even have God saying he was "good." He wasn't. Man was created with both good and evil urges.

The phrase "very good" occurs when God looks at everything He had made in its totality.

I stand corrected. God said that His creation was "very good" after He created humans, not before.

How is it that God created Adam with evil urges when He said that ALL He created was "very good"? This is illogical and unbiblical. God created Adam and Eve with a free will to choose to obey Him or not. This is not the same thing as being created with evil urges. IOW, what you're saying is a HUGE stretch!

To give you an analogy, my children are free to obey me or disobey when I tell them to do something. They have not done anything wrong or bad until they choose to disobey. Having the will to choose didn't make Adam and Eve evil in any way.
 

Prayer Warrior

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What do most people know about it? They're afraid to look into it.

Why do you assume fear? I have looked into it and rejected it as being occult and, therefore, evil.

No one is clothed in the physical sun, and no one is standing on the physical moon. Neither is there a physical dragon chasing her around in the physical sky. These are things he saw in his vision but they represent spiritual realities, not physical ones. A knowledge of what is meant by the three heavens is helpful. There is one of fire, one of air, and one of water. Then there is the earth -- our physical plane. A prophet has to use human words to describe things, and the objects he sees spiritually informs me of the spiritual reality. Sometimes this can seem strange. Why did Jeremiah see an almond tree?

Think of it this way. The constellation that possibly represents the Virgin Mary (the woman) is on the eastern horizon with the sun shining behind her and the moon rising at the bottom of her feet. Can you picture it?

It could be that John saw literal stars, sun, and moon. Like I said before, we know that the constellation probably represents the virgin in some way, so this vision has both literal and figurative meaning.

I'm not against knowledge!!! I took several Bible classes in college and learned about the terms and history of the Bible--like who the Pharisees and Sadducees were. I'm glad that I learned this, because I understand certain passages in the Bible better.

What you're talking about is not factual knowledge, but occult knowledge. BIG difference! Occult knowledge doesn't have its basis in the truth. It hides the truth. You have to dig for it using practices that God has told us NOT to employ, like divination, etc.
.
 

Prayer Warrior

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It means the study of the stars.

The study of the stars is the SCIENCE called astronomy. From what I've read, the two disciplines tended to be mixed at first, but true scientists split from those who studied the heavenly bodies from a mystical standpoint.