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Featured I wonder where this might lead...

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by brakelite, Sep 27, 2019.

  1. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Why didn't God say man was good then? It's omitted just as it's omitted on Day Two. Nothing good was made on the second day, that's why.

    It is not illogical. If man did not have a real choice in the matter, he would not have been as worthy a creation. He would have been a robot.
    If there was no evil urge, how could they have acted on it? It's not evil if not acted on. It remains only a potential. More importantly, if not given a real choice, they could not love. God wanted creatures with a potential to love. He wanted them to be as much like Him as possible too; because that meant He could love them more.

    I did not say they were evil. I said they had evil urges balanced with good ones. Evil is an imaginary nothingness unless we act on it.

    We see God doing the same thing here:

    Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

    We were made to be rewarded when we made the right choices and punished when we chose evil. God wants us all to choose right and life. We all have the potential or urge for evil however.
     
  2. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Astrology - Wikipedia

    The word astrology comes from the early Latin word astrologia,[18] which derives from the Greek ἀστρολογία—from ἄστρον astron ("star") and -λογία -logia, ("study of"—"account of the stars"). Astrologia later passed into meaning 'star-divination' with astronomia used for the scientific term.[19]

    You might be surprised at what scientists practiced astrology. How about Isaac Newton or Johannes Kepler?

    Isaac Newton's occult studies - Wikipedia

    How Did the Skeptical Astrology of Johannes Kepler Contribute to Our View of the Cosmos?

    As for what passes today for science, I tend to scoff since "science" has fallen into materialism, largely denying spiritual reality. I laugh at some of it when they think everything has to be physical.
     
  3. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    If the sun was up, you could not see the stars in Virgo; and so far as I know, there are not twelve stars around the head of the woman in that constellation. Nor could that constellation fall to the earth and flee into the wilderness. It just doesn't add up.
    Occult means hidden or secret.

    Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
    .
    I know how to practice divination and do not do it. I'd also advise others not to do it. No doubt about it, playing with some things poses dangers. That being said, I will say it shocks me how people frequently look at prophecy in the Bible as if it was mere fortunetelling. They are curious about the future just like the person who consults a psychic, an astrologer or a Tarot card reader. Don't take it personally please since I don't mean you; but look around this forum -- there are some who are obsessed with trying to figure out the future. The book of Revelation says there is a blessing for those who read it and keep its sayings. People aren't interested in keeping the sayings or even trying to discern what the book may tell them to do. They just want to figure out the future.

    Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
     
  4. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Evil urges come from the sin nature, the fallen nature, that resulted from "the Fall." Adam and Eve did not have a sin nature until they disobeyed God. Prior to the Fall, they were free to choose to disobey, but they had not disobeyed. When they did disobey, their natures were corrupted by disobedience/sin; hence, they had a sin nature from that point on along with everyone else who has been born of Adam's seed. This includes every human being born since then, except Jesus, who was NOT born of Adam's seed.

    The devil, who had become evil when He challenged God's authority in heaven, was present one day as Eve looked at the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He tempted Eve to disobey God and eat the fruit. That's ALL we know for sure because that's ALL we are told! We're not told that the devil was present during creation or anything else that you're saying. (Now, I'm repeating myself....)

    It seems to me that you're going to great lengths to add to what God has said in order to incorporate your mystical/occult views. IOW, you're looking at the Bible through the lens of the occult rather than examining the occult through the lens of the Bible.
    .
     
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  5. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm not surprised. I knew this, and it's very disappointing that these scientists put any stock in the occult. This doesn't make the occult legit in any way! They were misguided....by the devil as we all can be deceived.

    Edit:
    Science has fallen into materialism?? LOL! True science IS the study of that which is made of matter! There are plenty of scientists who study matter and also believe in the spiritual. Christian scientists do.
    .
     
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  6. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    I don't know B.L, those scriptures are compelling...to me anyhow but, you know way more about eschatology than I do...one day we will all find out anyhow but, I think it is so important to know this subject yet, I find it way confusing what with everybody believing they have it down pat...who to believe?? :eek:
     
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  7. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    Like I said (going on 3 or 4 times now :confused:), this vision probably depicted BOTH literal and figurative things.

    I know that this is the basic meaning of the word, but "the occult" has a broader meaning.

    You're addressing several issues here. First, I'm so relieved to know that you don't practice divination and that you see it as dangerous! I don't expect you to understand this, but my heart was hurting for you, and I've been praying for you.

    Second, I believe that prophecy (including the spiritual gift) is speaking what God shows us to speak, not necessarily foretelling the future. Some Bible prophecy tells about future events, and some doesn't.

    Third, I agree that God guarantees a blessing to those who read Revelation... I think you're generalizing about what people think about it, though. I think that many of us don't understand all of it, and I'm not convinced preachers who teach on it don't understand it all. I figure I'll understand what I need to understand when I need to understand it. :cool: But you're right that perhaps a lot of Christians avoid the book altogether, but shouldn't.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
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  8. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I have read about your view here, and elsewhere as well. And, yes I do see the "beast" as an institution or Nations. Yet, how do you reconcile the "man" of sin/perdition/ 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 ...'Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.'

    I believe Satan will fully possess a male human being...'showing signs and wonders to deceive even the very elect...if were possible'
    I see this man as the small horn with eyes. "This horn had eyes like those of a man and a mouth that spoke words of arrogance."
    Just mulling over but, have to get moving here...lots to do...having a chili fest at a friends home :)
     
  9. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    And, I will read and take them to heart ❤
     
  10. Keraz

    Keraz Well-Known Member

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    All of mens machinations and actions like you mention, are of no consequence to God's Plans.
    The trigger for the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, will be the Islamic peoples commencing their long threatened attack onto Israel.
    Wait for the Day!
     
  11. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    In one way, all men are children of God and can be called gods. Do you not believe that being in the image and likeness of God counts for anything?

    It is also written -- and Jesus quoted it:

    Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    The word can mean different things depending on context. Have you any idea how to read this?

    Exodus 7:1 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

    Or this?

    Micah 4:5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever.

    My idea on "god" is very close to what the Orthodox Church teaches. I won't quote from it, here's a link if you're interested.

    Theosis: Partaking of the Divine Nature | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese
    I've already done so twice.
     
  12. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    I understand everything you're saying because I spent many hours studying mysticism. IOW, nothing you're saying to me is new stuff.

    This is why I reject what you're saying. One of the most basic beliefs in biblical Christianity is, and has been, that God, who is not a created being, transcends His creation. We are created; He is not. We have a beginning; He does not. He breathed His Spirit into Adam to make him a living being, but Adam was not God and did not become God. Adam was OF GOD, but he was not God. Our life comes from God, but we are not who He is. He is the great "I Am," we are not, and never will be....

    When I was looking for info on "Christian mysticism," I read the Catholic Encyclopedia to learn about it. They say something very interesting in their explanation of mysticism. They explain various aspects of mysticism from the Eastern religions, etc. Then, they explain the following:

    With Christianity, the history of Mysticism enters into a new period. The Fathers recognized indeed the partial truth of the pagan system, but they pointed out also its fundamental errors. They made a distinction between reason and faith, philosophy and theology; they acknowledged the aspirations of the soul, but, at the same time, they emphasized its essential inability to penetrate the mysteries of Divine life.

    Source:
    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Mysticism
    The early Catholic Church recognized that mysticism was part of the pagan system. Well, the pagan system involved worship of nature.... I believe this was an early form of pantheism, the belief that all that exists is God. So, the CC recognized the errors, but they used some of the ideas anyway. They tried to FUSE pagan beliefs with Bible truth, putting poison in the well.

    When the "schism" happened, the Orthodox Church rejected certain errors in the CC (such as infallibility of the pope), but not this error. When they split, they took the CC's pagan ideas of mysticism with them. And I believe that this is the basis for their beliefs about theosis.

    Please hear what I'm saying. When we are born again, we come into a union with God through Jesus Christ. This union is truly a wonderful mystery that our human minds can't comprehend. HOWEVER, I do not believe that this union is anything like what is called the "divine Unity" of pantheism, whereby humans reach the consciousness that we are God....

    When Paul talks about marriage representing our union with Christ, keep in mind that the married couple retain their individual identities in this union. They do not become one another. The union is very real between two distinct individuals. This is what I believe our union with Christ is like. It is an intimate union, to be sure, but He retains His identity as God the Son, and we retain our identity as created beings. And He will be God forever, and we will be human beings forever. Of course, those of us who are born again will become everything God created us to be--completely free from the corruption that sin brought to all of creation....

    I sense such a spiritual battle over your soul! I have spent so much time praying in the Spirit for you. As my heart has been so burdened, I can't help but to pray!
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
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  13. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    You are worried over nothing.

    Actually I think nothing except God exists. We exist only because He continues to wish it so. We may exist then in a certain way; but it's not as "real" as the way God exists. Paul quotes a pagan poet:

    Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    I will ask you what I have asked many others when they talk about "born again." Why did Jesus say that those born of the Spirit can move like the wind?

    John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
     
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  14. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    I didn't say worried. I said burdened, and the burden that I "feel" is not from me, but from God.

    Well, what else is there to say?? This is pantheism, pure and simple. I'm glad that you just came out with what you believe, but I feel so sad for you.

    Many who venture into mysticism and other occult practices end up where you have ended up--believing that all that exists is God. But it ain't the truth! You will never be God!

    I've seen the verses you quoted used to support your pantheistic ideas, but they do not reflect the whole counsel of God. Paul wasn't telling the pagans that we are all God's children.

    Romans 5:10 says that we were God's enemies before being reconciled to Him....

    For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

    James 4:4

    Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
    Romans 8:7

    Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
    I don't believe that He was saying that we can move like the wind in this verse. Here's a different translation that I think is clearer.

    "The wind blows where it pleases, and you hear its sound, but you don’t know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” (HCSB)

    I believe that He was explaining to Nicodemus that we don't understand how someone is born of the Spirit any more than we understand where the wind comes from and where it goes.... Being born of the Spirit is a mystery.




     
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  15. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    You can think that, but I still think you're worried over nothing.
    I never said I could be God. I am like a tiny spark compared to the infinitude of God. I don't even exist on my own.

    But we are, we just don't know it. We act like the devil when we don't recognize God as the origin of all that is.
    Therein lies the problem. People see themselves as carnal creatures, like beasts of the field. Some seem to think that all that exists is the material world.

    I've no objection to that translation. It says the same thing to me. The word "so" means something there. Nicodemus was convinced Jesus was Messiah after hearing what Jesus said. I don't think Nicodemus needed it explained to him. He was testing Jesus to see if he was Messiah or not, and part of that was his playing dumb.

    Flesh is flesh, and spirit is spirit. Most people do not know the difference since they're trapped in their physical bodies. Things need to separated before the difference can be seen.

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    Here is another clue about someone called "son of man" in the Old Testament. Ezekiel could move around like the wind, without his physical body. John was also "caught up" to heaven, and Paul wrote about it. Some may be born of water, but until the "Word" separates them, they are not fully born of the Spirit yet.

     
  16. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

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    The wrath is brought about by Anti-Christ because they reject God and or they are Anti-Christ as the gods they look to are idols.

    Islam is Anti-Christ in fact, yes they talk about a Jesus but it is not Jesus Christ at all, for if they knew him they would know him.

    The Jews never knew God and they are in fact Anti-Christ in fact and no Christian could be so stupid not to understand that fact.

    There is only one plan and that's Jesus Christ, you abide in him or you don't, end of story.

    The Jews are under a curse, just as is Islam and anyone who rejects Jesus Christ and that's a fact, because they have false idols and idolise mans works and that's a curse. Mans works are but filthy rags.

    If one rejects Jesus Christ they are a Curse and as such all such as are a blight on the world.

    Every truly born again Christian knows that they themselves are in fact an Israel and it is only they who are truly born again that truly only serve Jesus Christ, because they truly know that he is the King of Israel ? the King of his servants and the word Israel means that they are the servants of God, so he is the King of the Servants of God in fact ?
    Not to mention that Nathaniel knew who Christ was directly and not to mention that all of Jesus disciples came to know that Jesus was the Christ and that means that they knew for a fact that he is the king of Israel and it points out the fact that his disciples were truly Israel, now Jesus said to Nathaniel that Nathaniel was in fact a true Israelite indeed and much more than that remember ? and what would Nathaniel see ? and if you do not remember what Jesus said that Nathaniel was going to see, such a one who does not understand this must be at a loss to truly understand who Jesus truly is in fact and that's why they like a dog return to their own vomit, because it's a dog and knows no better than the Law, because such has no Grace.

    All they who claim to be Jews nowadays are not worthy of Holy Moses at all, because if they were they would be Christian born again Israel in fact and not some pack of dupes led by the Golden Calf mob who only tried to undermine and kill him. Jesus Christ pointed this mob out for what they truly were and they are known as the Talmud nowadays and this mob have been undermining the Jews from the beginning, they are a whore or a Vampire that sucks the Spiritual life blood out of all they come in contact with.
     
  17. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    We are not divine sparks. We are not drops in the vast ocean that is supposedly God. Those who are born again by His Spirit are God's sons and daughters, individuals created by our personal God who calls Himself our Father, as we are no longer His enemies!

    We are not "trapped" in our physical bodies. This idea is based on Gnostic heresy, refuted by John in 1 John 4:2. We will have our physical bodies at the resurrection. Jesus had His physical body at the resurrection and ate fish with his disciples.

    All people who are not born again because they refuse God's provisions for salvation will exist as individuals apart from God in a place of torment forever. Think about the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. The rich man, who ended up in hell, asked if he could go warn his brothers. When he died, he did not cease to exist as the person that he was before his death.

    All who are born again are fully born of God's Spirit as the individuals God created us to be. We have been made alive together with Christ. We have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of Jesus Christ. We have been raised up and seated in the heavens in Christ Jesus. This is reality for the believer right now.

    Ephesians 2:4-7--But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love that He had for us, made us alive with the Messiah even though we were dead in trespasses. You are saved by grace! Together with Christ Jesus He also raised us up and seated us in the heavens, so that in the coming ages He might display the immeasurable riches of His grace through His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2019
  18. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    It should be the reality for believers here and now, but is it? How can you be seated in heavenly places if you deny the spirit can leave the body and move on its own?

    Have you ever known of a physical body that could appear and disappear at will? Jesus could do that with his body after the resurrection.

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
    48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
    49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
     
  19. Prayer Warrior

    Prayer Warrior Well-Known Member

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    It IS reality that believers are seated with Christ in the heavens, or in the heavenly places, in Him whether we understand it or not. We believe it by faith because His word says so.

    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you believe that all matter is evil, so physical bodies are evil? Are you saying that Jesus' resurrected body didn't have physical properties? If not, now did he eat fish?

    Luke 24:40-43--Having said this, He showed them His hands and feet. But while they still were amazed and unbelieving because of their joy, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish, and He took it and ate in their presence.

    Edit:
    You seem to be implying Gnosticism, so I'll just paste this article from GotQuestions.org.

    What is Christian Gnosticism?

    Question:
    "What is Christian Gnosticism?"

    Answer: There is actually no such thing as Christian Gnosticism, because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive systems of belief. The principles of Gnosticism contradict what it means to be a Christian. Therefore, while some forms of Gnosticism may claim to be Christian, they are in fact decidedly non-Christian.

    Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises. First, it espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.

    Second, Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plane of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.

    To discredit the idea of any compatibility between Christianity and Gnosticism, one has only to compare their teachings on the main doctrines of the faith. On the matter of salvation, Gnosticism teaches that salvation is gained through the acquisition of divine knowledge which frees one from the illusions of darkness. Although they claim to follow Jesus Christ and His original teachings, Gnostics contradict Him at every turn. Jesus said nothing about salvation through knowledge, but by faith in Him as Savior from sin. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Furthermore, the salvation Christ offers is free and available to everyone (John 3:16), not just a select few who have acquired a special revelation.

    Christianity asserts that there is one source of Truth and that is the Bible, the inspired, inerrant Word of the living God, the only infallible rule of faith and practice (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Hebrews 4:12). It is God’s written revelation to mankind and is never superseded by man’s thoughts, ideas, writings, or visions. The Gnostics, on the other hand, use a variety of early heretical writings known as the Gnostic gospels, a collection of forgeries claiming to be “lost books of the Bible.” Thankfully, the early church fathers were nearly unanimous in recognizing these Gnostic scrolls as fraudulent forgeries that espouse false doctrines about Jesus Christ, salvation, God, and every other crucial Christian truth. There are countless contradictions between the Gnostic “gospels” and the Bible. Even when the so-called Christian Gnostics quote from the Bible, they rewrite verses and parts of verses to harmonize with their philosophy, a practice that is strictly forbidden and warned against by Scripture (Deuteronomy 4:2; 12:32; Proverbs 30:6; Revelation 22:18-19).

    Source: What is Christian Gnosticism? | GotQuestions.org
     
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  20. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Then why express incredulity about the spirit leaving the body?

    His resurrected body was completely under his control. It was spirit and obeyed the Spirit. Our physical bodies are carnal and disobedient. He could make that body as solid as a physical body. He could make it disappear. It did whatever he wanted it to do.

    The physical body in and of itself is not evil; but it needs to be changed. Those who are Jesus' servants are given the power to do it. God does it but it is done through each of His servants.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    This can be done daily. The carnal nature is defeated here a little and there a little and transformed. So Paul said he died daily. Some can even "attain" the resurrected state without the death of the physical body. It's very rare. Only a "few" find that strait gate and narrow way (Matthew 7), but "many" will sit down with Abraham (Matthew 8). Paul wrote that he had not attained it.

    Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
    11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
    12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.


    Those who do attain completely look to mortal eyes as if nothing has changed. The glory in their bodies, since they have been glorified, is hidden from the gaze of idle eyes; but after the Judgment, they will shine as the stars in the firmament. That being said, every saint has accomplished this in part. Note that Jesus appeared only to the righteous after his resurrection. Many things are concealed from most men.

    God is not going to "create" new spiritual bodies for people for the most part. The corruptible is changed to the incorruptible by crucifying self.

    Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    Paul was not writing to you or me when he wrote this:

    1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


    It was true for them -- the "we" is Paul and the people in the church at Corinth. It can also be true today. It will be true in the future too.

    How many were "changed" at Mount Sinai when the trumpet waxed strong? That case is interesting since Israel could see Moses' face shining. It was not concealed from them. Do not ask me since I do not know if he attained fully while alive. I rather think not however since there was a dispute about it between Michael and Satan.

    Elijah did attain; and he was able to appear with Moses and Jesus. He was also able to write a letter and have it delivered. He could make his body as solid as he wanted; and he could appear and disappear just as Jesus could after the resurrection.
     
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