I wonder where this might lead...

[4Jesus]

I mean what passages mention Satan by name?

He's in there a few times, perhaps Job is when he first is called by that name?

I see in Revelation 20:2 "2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

the link of "the dragon", "that old serpent", "which is the Devil, and Satan".

This could link back to Genesis via "that old serpent" (notice no capitalization, just a "serpent").

 

[Nancy]

Are you saying you believe Satan fell when the serpent was told he would crawl on the ground and eat dust?

No, when God saw what the serpent (Satan!) had done in tempting Adam and Eve, God punished him by taking away his wings, or legs so as to force him to "eat the dust of the ground". The timing of Satan being thrown out of the heaven-lies with his minions is not known as far as I can see. You would be placing "death" before "sin" if you are looking at this in a Pre-Adamic angle. There would not have been any reason for Christ to come down here and die. JMHO

 

[Giuliano]

He's in there a few times, perhaps Job is when he first is called by that name?

I see in Revelation 20:2 "2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"

the link of "the dragon", "that old serpent", "which is the Devil, and Satan".

This could link back to Genesis via "that old serpent" (notice no capitalization, just a "serpent").

Yes, Job. Then who's next?

 

[4Jesus]

Yes, Job. Then who's next?

In the gospels, a couple of times "Get behind me satan", "satan took Jesus up to the mountain"...

 

[Giuliano]

No, when God saw what the serpent (Satan!) had done in tempting Adam and Eve, God punished him by taking away his wings, or legs so as to force him to "eat the dust of the ground". The timing of Satan being thrown out of the heaven-lies with his minions is not known as far as I can see.

Why is Satan described later as Prince of the Air if he was cast to the earth? How did he show up in Heaven in the book of Job?

He's also described as being cast down to the earth in Revelation; and John says the things he's describing will come to pass in the future. It's odd to me that people don't believe that but think that is talking about a past event.

You would be placing "death" before "sin" if you are looking at this in a Pre-Adamic angle. There would not have been any reason for Christ to come down here and die. JMHO

I don't follow you there. Sorry.

 

[Nancy]

Why is Satan described later as Prince of the Air if he was cast to the earth? How did he show up in Heaven in the book of Job?

He's also described as being cast down to the earth in Revelation; and John says the things he's describing will come to pass in the future. It's odd to me that people don't believe that but think that is talking about a past event.
I don't follow you there. Sorry.

I'd say that Satan fell after creation, since everything God made, He deemed it "very good". Genesis 1:31
Satan enters the picture, through a serpent (he is a spirit and can enter other living beings, speak lie after lie, lead them in the wrong direction, away from God and His commands.) during a wonderful relationship between Adam Eve and God, and...we don't know how long they were walking in unison with The Creator God...could have been hundreds of years. Plenty of time for Satan to become very jealous indeed, of God's relationship with man. Lot's of people believe there was a world before Adam and Eve. Since there is several mentions of the phrase "In the BEGINNING" in the Word. Just because the earth was void and without form, does not mean God destroyed another creation before us. Doesn't mean He did not either. These are my musings and what I take away from what I read and can understand. There would not have been a reason for Jesus to come down here and set foot on this earth if Satan was NOT in the garden at the time Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. If the serpent was not Satan incarnate in a snake, then it was one of his demons which means the same thing to me. Evil is evil and it all started with Satan. JMHO

 

[bbyrd009]

Satan enters the picture, through a serpent (he is a spirit and can enter other living beings, speak lie after lie

pls Quote the lie? ty

 

[Nancy]

pls Quote the lie? ty

1 "Now the serpent…said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:1-5)

 

[bbyrd009]

my arg will be that satan does not lie, according to our lexicon anyway, but rather offers facts

 

[bbyrd009]

1 "Now the serpent…said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:1-5)

so iow it was Eve who was lying, not Satan, yeh?
Satan asks a Q,
Eve mis-speaks,
Satan tells a fact from the human pov which is functionally correct,
then tells another from the same pov,
etc

 

[Nancy]

my arg will be that satan does not lie, according to our lexicon anyway, but rather offers facts

He is the Father of Lies! There is NO truth in him...he is wily, he is cunning and he lies through any means possible like, putting doubts in our minds, twisting Gods Word, he lies by omission as well as any way he can, all to move us further and further from Truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

all know the difference in good and evil now, right?

He is the Father of Lies! There is NO truth in him...he is wily, he is cunning and he lies through any means possible like, putting doubts in our minds, twisting Gods Word, he lies by omission as well as any way he can, all to move us further and further from Truth.

not disagreeing, but again Quote the lie, if you can.
Eve lied, from our pov, not satan!

 

[Giuliano]

I'd say that Satan fell after creation, since everything God made, He deemed it "very good". Genesis 1:31
Satan enters the picture, through a serpent (he is a spirit and can enter other living beings, speak lie after lie, lead them in the wrong direction, away from God and His commands.) during a wonderful relationship between Adam Eve and God, and...we don't know how long they were walking in unison with The Creator God...could have been hundreds of years. Plenty of time for Satan to become very jealous indeed, of God's relationship with man. Lot's of people believe there was a world before Adam and Eve. Since there is several mentions of the phrase "In the BEGINNING" in the Word. Just because the earth was void and without form, does not mean God destroyed another creation before us. Doesn't mean He did not either. These are my musings and what I take away from what I read and can understand. There would not have been a reason for Jesus to come down here and set foot on this earth if Satan was NOT in the garden at the time Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. If the serpent was not Satan incarnate in a snake, then it was one of his demons which means the same thing to me. Evil is evil and it all started with Satan. JMHO

Thanks for rewording it for me, but sorry I still don't understand. That's okay, I guess.

 

[Nancy]

so iow it was Eve who was lying, not Satan, yeh?
Satan asks a Q,
Eve mis-speaks,
Satan tells a fact from the human pov which is functionally correct,
then tells another from the same pov,
etc

Eve might have mis spoken about the touching of the tree but, I do not see that as a lie. And, for all we know, God DID tell them not to touch it. Just because it is not written in there does not mean He did not say that.

 

[Nancy]

my arg will be that satan does not lie, according to our lexicon anyway, but rather offers facts

Well then, I suppose we should all cross out the scripture calling Satan the Father of ALL lies?

 

[Giuliano]

In the gospels, a couple of times "Get behind me satan", "satan took Jesus up to the mountain"...

And David and Joshua the High Priest. These were not "bad" people. They were saintly people.

 

[marks]

Would that it could be so simple. The word in Hebrew for "test" also means "tempt" or "prove."

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)


Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

So tell me more about why you think God tests people. Is God trying to find out something? Why did this happen:

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

You could think of it this way. It's a test if you endure it. It's a temptation if you don't. Same word, two applications.

You are presented with a difficult or painful or threatening situation, or something that entices you towards itself.

This is peirasmos, test/tempt. Put something to the test to show what it is.

Peter wrote that as we endure our temptations/testings, it proves our faith is genuine.

God allowed Satan to tempt/test Jesus to prove Him sinless, and impeccable in the theological sense.

Jesus told Satan to get away. Jesus proved His Nature by His enduring through testing/tempting.

God never tempts/tests us beyond what we are able to endure, but with the testing/temptation provide a way out.

In the Greek, this way out speaks of a safe haven out of the sea, in this case, God, with every testing/tempting, provides a particular way out, that is, a certain destination where you will be safe.

He has in mind what He wants this testing/tempting to do towards changing your character and building your faith, and if we endure and look to Him, these things happen in the way He wants them to.

At the end of the day, I echo the prayer Jesus taught, "Lead me not into temptation/testing, but deliver me from evil". Testing/tempting is to prompt endurance in the face of hardship, in order to accomplish a certain improvement in us. So I pray, "Don't put me into that difficulty or enticement, just deliver me from the evil this is meant to lead me away from."

Much love!

 

[farouk]

God tests people, to give them opportunity to show faith and fidelity. When we fail the test, it means we did not remain in trust, and so fell into sin. But that's not God's desire. His desire is for us to remain in faith, and therefore fidelity.

Much love!

We need to keep 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2).

 

[bbyrd009]

Eve might have mis spoken about the touching of the tree but, I do not see that as a lie. And, for all we know, God DID tell them not to touch it. Just because it is not written in there does not mean He did not say that.

ok then, you gotta go with what seems right to you i guess, at the time
just food for thought

 

[bbyrd009]

Well then, I suppose we should all cross out the scripture calling Satan the Father of ALL lies?

i did not mean that at all, but i would take it differently, yes.
Bc in a sense, outright and obvious lies are really not lies at all! weird as that sounds.
and, you cannot Quote Satan lying in the passage, pure and simple, yes

facts are the "father of lies" too, imo, and
to state a "fact" is a way of saying that we "know..." something, right.
so i suggest that "facts" miht be the, a culprit here, maybe