I wonder where this might lead...

[4Jesus]

The "he" in the above verse is the Messiah...it is after all a Messianic prophecy...the covenant was confirmed by Jesus for a prophetic week...7 years...3 1/2 in person...3 1/2 through the His disciples until the stoning of Stephen after which the gospel was taken to the Gentiles. That final week completed the 490 years of Israel's probation from that very same chapter you quoted.

I don't know about this conclusively. Look at the previous two verses in Daniel 9: "25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

In verse 25, it states "Messiah the Prince", in reference to Jesus. In verse 26, we see that Messiah is cut off.

Then, it states the "people of the prince", in lowercase. Why would the same being just within the last verse and the current one, have different capitalization and titling? If they're the same being, wouldn't verse 26 state "people of the Prince", just as "Messiah" is captalized in the same verse?

Also, look at the verbiage used, after the Messiah is cut off, the "people of the prince" "that shall come", meaning later on.

Then in verse 27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate", it continues talking about the last being referenced, in verse 26, which is the "prince"; it doesn't switch again to talk of the "Prince".

So while I agree that verse 25 and the beginning of verse 26 is discussing the "Messiah the Prince" which is Jesus, I still think in verse 26 it talks of a different "prince", one that is like "the Prince", but is only a "prince".

The stoning of Stephen was the Sannhedrin's final rejection of Messiah and they represented the nation. From that time on, Iarael ceased to be God's vessel for taking the gospel to the world. The "vineyard was taken over by the King and give to another who would give the King its fruits in due season".
Jesus, through His death, caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. Regardless of the continuing vain attempts to continue the practice by the rulers. It was Jesus Himself who said to the Sannhedrin, "behold, your house is left unto you desolate".

This, to me, does not negate that there are two different beings discussed in verse 26.

 

[4Jesus]

Yeah, I have no doubt other world leaders have been possessed. Hitler was a Satan worshipper.

I usually hear two possibilities for the man often called the antichrist. He could be a human who is possessed by Satan, or he could be Satan incarnate. I lean toward the second possibility, but I don't really have strong views about this. I'm sure some Christians do.

I'm not sure either, of how specifically it will occur. I do know, that in his infinite pride, satan won't want to miss out on being worshipped publicly, especially with God's permission lol.

In Revelation, we do see three "players" and their fates once Our King comes to save us again - in Revelation 19:20 "20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.",

the beast and false prophet go to the lake of fire, while in Revelation 20:2-3 "'
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.",

satan is thrown into the bottomless pit right after the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

How will the mechanics of the beast and satan work - will they be intertwined, so to speak, will satan just influence the beast and remain separate, I don't know, nor do I think scripture gives us enough info to determine.

Even if satan does possess the beast, God can undo the possession, to dispose of them into two separate places anyway.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I'm not sure either, of how specifically it will occur. I do know, that in his infinite pride, satan won't want to miss out on being worshipped publicly, especially with God's permission lol.

In Revelation, we do see three "players" and their fates once Our King comes to save us again - in Revelation 19:20 "20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.",

the beast and false prophet go to the lake of fire, while in Revelation 20:2-3 "'
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.",

satan is thrown into the bottomless pit right after the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire.

How will the mechanics of the beast and satan work - will they be intertwined, so to speak, will satan just influence the beast and remain separate, I don't know, nor do I think scripture gives us enough info to determine.

Even if satan does possess the beast, God can undo the possession, to dispose of them into two separate places anyway.

I don't know either.

To be honest, I don't really feel like I have to know. It seems like there are more men interested in understanding the finer points of eschatology than women. Not sure why that is. I'm more interested in how to walk by the Spirit here and now, even though, I know that we shouldn't be ignorant about End Times prophecies because I do believe that we are close to the end of the end.
.

 

[Giuliano]

God tests people, to give them opportunity to show faith and fidelity. When we fail the test, it means we did not remain in trust, and so fell into sin. But that's not God's desire. His desire is for us to remain in faith, and therefore fidelity.

Much love!

Would that it could be so simple. The word in Hebrew for "test" also means "tempt" or "prove."

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)


Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

So tell me more about why you think God tests people. Is God trying to find out something? Why did this happen:

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

 

[Giuliano]

So you are of the belief that the garden of Eden and the story of Adam and Eve was just a parable?

Absolutely not. I think it describes the establishing the patterns of things in heaven. That template is like a picture on a jigsaw puzzle -- and the pieces on earth need to be put together the way the picture has things. Various spiritual beings control various forces of nature and the species of plants and animals. The previous spiritual hierarchy had been corrupted, so Eden was established to get life back on track on earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth "became" <not "was> without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Take the problem of the thorns and thistles. The same curse that produced those on the vegetation also cursed Adam to death. There is a part of man that can be called a vegetable. Without soul and spirit, the human body can still exist -- in a "vegetative state." We see this curse being reversed by Jesus when he took the "crown of thorns" placed on his head and making it into a "crown of life." The occultists, Hindus and Buddhists would call that the "crown chakra" that is usually missing in most people.

Any idea about how many times Satan falls?

 

[Giuliano]

But how do you explain the part about being in the Garden of Eden? Obviously, the king of Tyre never was.

I'm referring to verse 13 that says, "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God...."

I think it's sarcasm. Prophets can be sarcastic at times. Remember how Elijah mocked the prophets of Baal? I laugh when I read that. It's said God laughs at some things.

Psalm 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.

 

[Giuliano]

Just to chime in here, do either of you (PW and Guiliano) deny that spiritual/demonic possession occurs in humans, literally? Meaning, can not the Prince of Tyre have been possessed by satan himself? Thus, the comparison, and actions, would be one and the same because they were united, literally.

I'm pretty sure I know where PW stands on this (but didn't want to assume, so that's why I asked you both), but curious if you do Guiliano.

Why would Satan bother to possess him personally when a lesser demon could do the job?

Think about when Satan shows up in the Bible. He doesn't bother himself with the average sinner or even bad sinners.

 

[Giuliano]

@Giuliano Just wondering why you believe that Satan was not the one who tempted Eve in the Garden. Is your belief from something you read? Is it part of an overall belief system?

BTW, I hope you haven't felt too ganged up on in this thread. (I know what that's like, believe me.) I appreciate you hanging in there with me.

The text doesn't say that; and I can't believe God would let him into the Garden. The serpent however served a purpose and needed to be there.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Why would Satan bother to possess him personally when a lesser demon could do the job?

Well, I just think he might, knowing that he could throw all of God's creation into darkness and corruption and death. This is what the devil does best! He kills, steals, destroys all that he touches, everyone he influences... IF he can.

When I was teaching English in a public school, I had a student who was in such darkness. You could see it on his face as he kept his head down and listened to imaginary music playing in his mind.... One day I said something about "the Lord" in class, and he perked up and said, "The devil takes care of his children." Without time to think, I said, "The devil EATS his children." And that's the truth!

 

[Giuliano]

Not tempt...test.

The word in Hebrew is the same.

Lucifer, before his fall, was the covering cherub. Or one of them. The other was Gabriel.

I never use the word "lucifer" since it is a word that doesn't belong in the Bible. It should read "morning star" -- another parallel with Jesus who is also called that. The "malicious" morning star fell from Heaven, and Jesus took his place.

As for Gabriel? I thought he was an archangel, not a cherub.

 

[Giuliano]

I don't know either.

To be honest, I don't really feel like I have to know. It seems like there are more men interested in understanding the finer points of eschatology than women. Not sure why that is. I'm more interested in how to walk by the Spirit here and now, even though, I know that we shouldn't be ignorant about End Times prophecies because I do believe that we are close to the end of the end.
.

I think I could tell you why men do that, but you might believe it. I think it goes back to the "desire of woman" in a way. Men can get horribly distracted by "intellectual" stuff that doesn't amount to a hill of beans. They can devote more "passion" into sports than into their marriages. If you ever knew a woman who hated how much her husband watched sports, you know what I mean. I think she's correctly disturbed. I think men are far more apt to engage in relatively meaningless, repetitive or obsessive behavior like that.

 

[Giuliano]

Well, I just think he might, knowing that he could throw all of God's creation into darkness and corruption and death. This is what the devil does best! He kills, steals, destroys all that he touches, everyone he influences... IF he can.

When I was teaching English in a public school, I had a student who was in such darkness. You could see it on his face as he kept his head down and listened to imaginary music playing in his mind.... One day I said something about "the Lord" in class, and he perked up and said, "The devil takes care of his children." Without time to think, I said, "The devil EATS his children." And that's the truth!

Think though of when Satan shows up in the Scriptures.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The word in Hebrew is the same.

I never use the word "lucifer" since it is a word that doesn't belong in the Bible. It should read "morning star" -- another parallel with Jesus who is also called that. The "malicious" morning star fell from Heaven, and Jesus took his place.

As for Gabriel? I thought he was an archangel, not a cherub.

I've always heard that Lucifer means "light bearer."

How is it that Jesus, who is God, took a fallen angel's place?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Think though of when Satan shows up in the Scriptures.

Yeah, we've been through this. His first appearance in the Bible is in the Garden where he lied and deceived Eve, which brought destruction and death to the whole universe.

 

[Giuliano]

I've always heard that Lucifer means "light bearer."

Here's a link to various translations of that verse. I think the word "Lucifer" confuses the verse. It comes from another word that means "bright".
Isaiah 14:12 - Bible Gateway

Young's Literal has it: "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

How is it that Jesus, who is God, took a fallen angel's place?

I think the fallen spiritual hierarchy needed to replaced.

Thus Esau was aligned with that fallen hierarchy -- Jacob with the unfallen one that was to replace or "supplant" it. Jacob did what he did, not to steal anything from Esau, but for the future salvation of the Edomites. Esau was the firstborn with the birthright since the fallen hierarchy was still in place -- that birthright was properly his. All authority is derived from God originally -- even wicked authority -- but when it becomes wicked, God finds a way to take that authority away and replace it.

 

[Giuliano]

Yeah, we've been through this. His first appearance in the Bible is in the Garden where he lied and deceived Eve, which brought destruction and death to the whole universe.

I don't think we have. Explicitly by name, when does Satan show up and to whom? I was surprised when I researched the matter.

 

[Nancy]

Absolutely not. I think it describes the establishing the patterns of things in heaven. That template is like a picture on a jigsaw puzzle -- and the pieces on earth need to be put together the way the picture has things. Various spiritual beings control various forces of nature and the species of plants and animals. The previous spiritual hierarchy had been corrupted, so Eden was established to get life back on track on earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth "became" <not "was> without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Take the problem of the thorns and thistles. The same curse that produced those on the vegetation also cursed Adam to death. There is a part of man that can be called a vegetable. Without soul and spirit, the human body can still exist -- in a "vegetative state." We see this curse being reversed by Jesus when he took the "crown of thorns" placed on his head and making it into a "crown of life." The occultists, Hindus and Buddhists would call that the "crown chakra" that is usually missing in most people.

Any idea about how many times Satan falls?

Satan fell once. I'd say he was already in the garden when Adam and Eve were formed/created. And he was also the most beautiful angel, and a cherub who was perfect in his ways until God found sin in him. His pride gave him visions of grandeur, ha! There would be no death had Adam not sinned through Satan's tempting.

 

[Giuliano]

Satan fell once. I'd say he was already in the garden when Adam and Eve were formed/created. And he was also the most beautiful angel, and a cherub who was perfect in his ways until God found sin in him. His pride gave him visions of grandeur, ha! There would be no death had Adam not sinned through Satan's tempting.

Are you saying you believe Satan fell when the serpent was told he would crawl on the ground and eat dust?

 

[4Jesus]

Why would Satan bother to possess him personally when a lesser demon could do the job?

Think about when Satan shows up in the Bible. He doesn't bother himself with the average sinner or even bad sinners.

For the worship of the leaders that he possesses.

I agree that he doesn't bother with the average sinners; no need to handle what his servants can.

 

[Giuliano]

For the worship of the leaders that he possesses.

I mean what passages mention Satan by name?