I wonder where this might lead...

[brakelite]

Sorry but I don't buy into Augustine's concept of inherited guilt. His idea of original sin was not part of Christianity until he invented it and the Catholic Church adopted it.

BTW, I No-one inherits the guilt of their forbears. What we inherit is a fallen nature, whereby we receive inherited weaknesses and a proclivity toward sin and the 'easy way out', but all sin is a choice. Even for the unsaved.

 

[Giuliano]

Yes, Paul said that he would turn a man's body over to Satan so that the man's soul might be saved. (1 Cor. 5:5)



Jesus was tempted to sin in every way that we are, yet without sin. (Heb 4:15)



You've GOT to be kidding me! I'm arguing against the falsehoods that you are spewing out!

Edit: You said that "demonic justice demands death for sin."

You can call it a falsehood, but tell me if God has only Justice without Mercy. I stand by what I said, "The demonic justice demands death for sin, failing to see the Wisdom of God for having Mercy."

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Why are you disagreeing about this? Why are you accusing me of "spewing out" "falsehoods"?

 

[Giuliano]

Ye shall not surely die. A&E died. Also, he was intimating that God lied. That insinuation is a lie.

No. He came to take back that which was His. This planet. Satan, through enticing A&E to disbelieve disobey God, and believe Satan, he won the legal title to the planet because he had taken Adam's dominion. The only way to take it back was for the 'second Adam' to go over the same ground, but not fall for the devil's lies and temptations, and Jesus did that. The earth is now legally and rightfully His. And soon He is returning to take possession.
As for Satan's fall. Jesus said when He was here, I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven. That therefore would have taken place previously to the incarnation. Jesus in His pre-incarnate state witnessed this event. In heaven, before that fall, he managed to convince one third of the angels to side with him. That was some mighty successful political campaign right there. Using slander, he managed to incite doubt and suspicion among the angels, until open war broke out, and he and his mob were cast out. We don't know how long a time period this took place. But I can imagine that there would have been politicking on both sides. Of course, God could have swatted His adversary into deepest space where he would have smacked hard up into a burning comet, never to be seen again. But what would that have accomplished? The ideas that Satan had planted would have remained. It was the idea that God wasn't worthy to rule, that Satan could do better, that needed to be dealt with. This needed time. And in order to prove Satan's attempt at insurrection was based on lies and innuendo and slander, God needed to give the ideas a testing ground. So He created man, and put man in an environment whereby Satan could see how successfully he could bring mankind into his fold. He succeeded with A&E, and legally took control of the planet. But only this planet.
When the rulers of other worlds, the 'sons of God' summoned in Job 1, as the ruler of this world Satan was permitted to attend the council. During this conversation, and with the events that followed, God proved Satan wasn't in complete charge. Job, by his righteous and faithful living, and despite Satan's best efforts to convince him otherwise, remained faithful. As God says elsewhere, there shall always be a remnant.
When Satan enticed the Sanhedrin to murder Jesus, this was the final nail in Satan's coffin. Any lingering doubts among the angels who chose to remain faithful to God were banished. It was then, when all of heaven was convinced of Satan's true motives and absolute wickedness, that heaven was forever shut to him. And why then is Satan still permitted to cause havoc on earth? Because not all people are convinced. When the whole world is finally and irrevocably convinced that Satan's ways are folly, and God's ways are true and good, then Satan and his angels will be destroyed and the ideas...the slanders...and doubts...that Satan sowed into the thinking and psyche of mankind, will be forever settled and dealt with.

I do not think God feels the need to prove anything. I do not attribute human weaknesses to God.

As for Job, I think Job benefited from the experience. I am sure he did. He found out some things for sure, things that had bothered him. God is Love. When Job was strong enough to face it, God allowed the test to set Job mind at ease.

Notice too that after this test, something changed. Job's prayers earlier were not answered. He prayed for his children and they all died. At the end, God tells him to pray for his friends, and that prayer was answered.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

You can call it a falsehood, but tell me if God has only Justice without Mercy. I stand by what I said, "The demonic justice demands death for sin, failing to see the Wisdom of God for having Mercy."

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Why are you disagreeing about this? Why are you accusing me of "spewing out" "falsehoods"?

Right. You said "demonic justice demands death for sin." And I said that it's God's justice that demands death for sin.

I quoted this verse:

Romans 6:23--For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God told Adam that if they ate from the tree... that they would surely die. God's justice demands death for sin. That's why Jesus died for us.

Gen 2:17--And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

How is it that you don't understand my objection to your saying that it's demonic justice that demands death?
.

 

[Giuliano]

Right. You said "demonic justice demands death for sin." And I said that it's God's justice that demands death for sin.

I quoted this verse:

Romans 6:23--For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God told Adam that if they ate from the tree... that they would surely die. God's justice demands death for sin. That's why Jesus died for us.

Gen 2:17--And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”

How is it that you don't understand my objection to your saying that it's demonic justice that demands death?
.

You took half of what I said. . . . God's Justice may demand death for sin, but it is always tempered with Mercy. Always. God is Love. Therefore we cannot separate His Justice from His Love. Trying to separate the two is satanic, a denial of God's Mercy.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

You took half of what I said. . . . God's Justice may demand death for sin, but it is always tempered with Mercy. Always. God is Love. Therefore we cannot separate His Justice from His Love. Trying to separate the two is satanic, a denial of God's Mercy.

I was objecting to your idea of "demonic justice." There is no such thing! Satan does not have a right to demand justice. God pronounced the death penalty for disobedience, not Satan. Adam and Eve sinned against God.

Satan is completely unjust. If there is any justice I him, it's warped justice, not true justice. There is nothing good in the devil!

God's Justice may demand death for sin, but it is always tempered with Mercy.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

​

 

[Prayer Warrior]

BTW, I No-one inherits the guilt of their forbears. What we inherit is a fallen nature, whereby we receive inherited weaknesses and a proclivity toward sin and the 'easy way out', but all sin is a choice. Even for the unsaved.

Just wondering about what you said in light of this verse. Maybe I'm not understanding your comment.

Ex 20:5-6--You must not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the fathers’ sin, to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing faithful love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commands.

 

[Giuliano]

I was objecting to your idea of "demonic justice." There is not such thing! Satan does not have a right to demand justice. God pronounced the death penalty for disobedience, not Satan. Adam and Eve sinned against God.

Satan is completely unjust. If there is any justice I him, it's warped justice, not true justice. There is nothing good in the devil!

Satan is depicted as the prosecuting attorney in the Divine Court. The prosecution is called "satan" in Hebrew. Consult how he's depicted with Job and Joshua the High Priest. God Himself acts as Defense Attorney.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

​

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Satan is depicted as the prosecuting attorney in the Divine Court. The prosecution is called "satan" in Hebrew. Consult how he's depicted with Job and Joshua the High Priest. God Himself acts as Defense Attorney.

Okay, I can see this, but it's not Satan's justice that will be done. It's God's justice based on His law. IOW, Satan is not the judge. Actually, Jesus is the defense attorney as our High Priest.

Romans 2:12--All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

 

[Giuliano]

Okay, I can see this, but it's not Satan's justice that will be done. It's God's justice based on His law. IOW, Satan is not the judge. Actually, Jesus is the defense attorney as our High Priest.

Romans 2:12--All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law.

We see in the case of Joshua the High Priest that Satan's accusation happened to be true. God's solution was to give him clean clothes. Then he wasn't "guilty" anymore.

 

[brakelite]

LOL, just thinking again about the title to this thread...yep, going all sorts of places...yet interesting thoughts from everyone whatever the direction the conversation headed.

Just as a lead in to some thoughts on the Antichrist, I want to share something about our true Christ; Who He is, and what He claimed to be.
Mathew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple...

The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system including all the ceremonies, the sacrifices, and the law of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the law itself, because He was the lawgiver.

….38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here…

Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted the entire city of Nineveh of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater than Jonah.

…42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater even than Solomon.

He claimed to be a greater priest than the current high priest of Israel, He claimed to be a greater prophet than Jonah, and He claimed to be a greater King than Solomon. In these three startling claims, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus.

Priest, prophet, and King.

In the preceding thread, we have been discussing the new age cosmic Christ, Krishna to some, the Matreya according to some, Madi according to others, and there is a common theme between this future new age Christ, and the real, in as much as the new age Christ also reflects a desire for priesthood, religious authority, and secular power. In essence, the spirit behind this movement, is Antichrist in every way. How is that? Because the very word "Antichrist" means instead of Christ. Anti– as in antichrist, according to Strong’s concordance, and like other words having the prefix ‘anti’, means at it’s most basic form “in the room of”, “instead of”, or “in the place of”.
In other words, ‘antichrist’ stands as a substitute. Any thoughts on this before I take this to its next step?

Before I go further on the subject of the Antichrist, if you haven't read the above quoted post, please do because it offers a great deal of context to what is coming.

IN Revelation 13:1-8 we read...
1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I would like to offer one or two general observations before I go into more detail. First, we must recognise that this is a beast, and it is a composite beast of four others who we are familiar with from Daniel 7. The vast majority of Bible scholars recognise those four beasts in Daniel 7 represented four empires... Babylon, Meda/Persia, Greece, and Rome. The angel Gabriel named the first three, and the fourth was too obvious to be anything else. The composite beast in Revelation , and in order to be prophetically consistent, and to ensure that His readers wouldn't be confused or left in ignorance, God must surely fully intend that we understand must also be a kingdom, or an empire of some description...not an individual person as some commentators suggest. This I think is where so many modern pundits go off track, and we have ended up going down so many rabbit trails over the past 60 years or so, that we have thus far been entertained with the names of dozens of candidates for the antichrist, including Anwar Sadat, Kissinger, Reagan, various heads of communism such as Gorbachev, heads of capitalism such as Prince Philip, and Charles, Obama and other notaries such as heads of the PLO, ISIS, and I think you know full well what I'm talking about. Is this God's fault because He wasn't clear enough in His description of this enemy to Christ? No. it is man's fault we are so confused because we have taken up the practice of clairvoyance instead of just taking God at His word and expecting a clear answer to our questions. The beast of Revelation 13, like the composite beasts he is comprised of, is a kingdom. And like all kingdoms, it has a king, a spokesman, who stands as its head representing the members of that kingdom.
Further, being a composite, we must assume from that this Revelation 13 beast has inherited the characteristics and/or possesses the same characteristics of those 4 former empires. Some of those characteristics they had in common, some were unique to themselves. One thing that had in common was their paganism...they were all, to some degree or another, unions of religion and state power. Either the state at times ruled over the religion but was greatly influenced by religion, or the religion, through its priestly class, ruled over the state. The beast of Revel.13 as can be seen from the above verses, is heavily influenced by the dragon, Satan, and thus its nature is intimately religious ways that affect not only its followers, but as we shall see later, the entire planet through force of its legislative efforts, 'speaking' like a dragon.
My next post will look into how this particular beast, this institution which is technically a kingdom, is not just very Antichrist, but the very Antichrist, and remembering the former post above, taking upon itself the very prerogatives of Christ as priest, prophet, and king.
Please bear in mind also the topics we have been dealing with in this thread...the occult influences in the UN...the global intents of certain interests to establish a global religion...the means by which this globalism is being implemented right now through the education even your own children are now being subject to through new age curricula...and who are the guiding powers behind these initiatives.

 

[brakelite]

Just wondering about what you said in light of this verse. Maybe I'm not understanding your comment.

Ex 20:5-6--You must not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the fathers’ sin, to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing faithful love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commands.

I do not think that God punishes our children for our sins. That I believe is a poor translation, likely influenced by Catholic interests to retain the concept of original sin. Passages in Ezekiel and elsewhere directly refute what you are suggesting.
The KJV I believe has it about right, where it says,
visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Visiting the iniquity to my mind means that sin has its ill effects generationally. My family for several generations has been afflicted by the alcoholism of my great grandparents. A niece of mine died from alcohol poisoning. Many relatives of mine suffered through mental and physical illness. I escaped but only because of the next part of that verse, which says, of them that hate me. I believe my faith saved me from that iniquity, in that when I was converted, my hunger/thirst for alcohol was removed from me, both mentally and physically. Until that time, I was a ripe candidate for continuing the trend. I believe that same concept is true for most sin. If you are born into a family of thieves, the likelihood of you becoming a thief is exponentially increased. The same for drug addicts...atheists...witches...whoremongers...homosexuals...etc etc. It is what we inherited from Adam. Not the guilt of the sin, but the proclivity and propensity to repeat it.

 

[brakelite]

I do not think God feels the need to prove anything. I do not attribute human weaknesses to God.

This touches upon the thread topic I have been discussing elsewhere, Verdict...guilty. The rebellion is real.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. This also speaks of the final judgement against Satan...I don't have the research at hand at the moment, but I can show from other texts that the traffic spoken of here are the lies and slanders of the entity spoken about. Those lies and slanders may not have to be proved wrong to those who are fooled by them, but let me ask you a question. If God had destroyed Satan the moment the rebellion began, what would the angels have thought? Those ideas were still around. It was the ideas that caused so many to fall. If those fallen angels and Satan had been destroyed, what would the remaining angels have thought? Would they have not considered the possibility that the devil was right? That God is not fit to rule because He is arbitrary and doesn't give anyone the opportunity to protest...object...in other words what He says goes, and everyone must just put up or shut up? They would have then served God out of fear, not love. But God is love. Love demands that those upon whom the love is bestowed, the right to reject that love. God desires we love Him because we appreciate the love He has for us, we appreciate the freedom to love, and we appreciate Him for who He is. We don't serve Him because we fear to be punished if we don't. But in order to do that, we need to fully understand all the motives, and lies, and the slanders of the enemy in the controversy. That spiritual warfare we are intimately witnesses to, requires more than just passive observation. And to get involved we need to understand the dynamics of the debate...which means God has had to allow the controversy to play out in order for all the true facts of the debate to be made manifest that all mey come to a fully informed and justified decision as to what side we are going to support.

As for Job, I think Job benefited from the experience. I am sure he did. He found out some things for sure, things that had bothered him. God is Love. When Job was strong enough to face it, God allowed the test to set Job mind at ease.

Notice too that after this test, something changed. Job's prayers earlier were not answered. He prayed for his children and they all died. At the end, God tells him to pray for his friends, and that prayer was answered.

No doubt Job benefited by the experience. I would hope his wife did to. She had more to learn.

 

[4Jesus]

This touches upon the thread topic I have been discussing elsewhere, Verdict...guilty. The rebellion is real.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. This also speaks of the final judgement against Satan...I don't have the research at hand at the moment, but I can show from other texts that the traffic spoken of here are the lies and slanders of the entity spoken about. Those lies and slanders may not have to be proved wrong to those who are fooled by them, but let me ask you a question. If God had destroyed Satan the moment the rebellion began, what would the angels have thought? Those ideas were still around. It was the ideas that caused so many to fall. If those fallen angels and Satan had been destroyed, what would the remaining angels have thought? Would they have not considered the possibility that the devil was right? That God is not fit to rule because He is arbitrary and doesn't give anyone the opportunity to protest...object...in other words what He says goes, and everyone must just put up or shut up? They would have then served God out of fear, not love. But God is love. Love demands that those upon whom the love is bestowed, the right to reject that love. God desires we love Him because we appreciate the love He has for us, we appreciate the freedom to love, and we appreciate Him for who He is. We don't serve Him because we fear to be punished if we don't. But in order to do that, we need to fully understand all the motives, and lies, and the slanders of the enemy in the controversy. That spiritual warfare we are intimately witnesses to, requires more than just passive observation. And to get involved we need to understand the dynamics of the debate...which means God has had to allow the controversy to play out in order for all the true facts of the debate to be made manifest that all mey come to a fully informed and justified decision as to what side we are going to support.

No doubt Job benefited by the experience. I would hope his wife did to. She had more to learn.

Or, or, just an or here, satan is an imbecile who's imagination wasn't worth entertaining, just because he said what he was saying was valid...lol. But, here we are...

 

[Giuliano]

If God had destroyed Satan the moment the rebellion began, what would the angels have thought? Those ideas were still around. It was the ideas that caused so many to fall. If those fallen angels and Satan had been destroyed, what would the remaining angels have thought? Would they have not considered the possibility that the devil was right? That God is not fit to rule because He is arbitrary and doesn't give anyone the opportunity to protest...object...in other words what He says goes, and everyone must just put up or shut up? They would have then served God out of fear, not love. But God is love.

I don't think God's actions depend on what others think. What would the angels think if God behaved like that? I think God does what is best for His creation. That is what I have faith in if I don't understand something.

 

[4Jesus]

Here it is.

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Then to complicate matters, we have this too:

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Nice find. Quick question for you: did you remember this (and about Joshua the High Priest) off the top of your head or did you need to look it up? I'm not saying it's bad if you did look it up, just more hats off to you if it was from memory.

I didn't want to appear as if I knew the answer by looking it up when I didn't know it when you asked. I did remember Job as the first time he was called "satan" though

 

[4Jesus]

I don't think God's actions depend on what others think. What would the angels think if God behaved like that? I think God does what is best for His creation. That is what I have faith in if I don't understand something.

Eh, Job was tortured because satan stated an opposing, false, view, that was purely an opinion - obviously he was wrong but would Job had been tortured if satan hadn't said anything?

 

[Giuliano]

Eh, Job was tortured because satan stated an opposing, false, view, that was purely an opinion - obviously he was wrong but would Job had been tortured if satan hadn't said anything?

Note that God starts the conversation with Satan and mentions Job to him. . . .

 

[Giuliano]

Nice find. Quick question for you: did you remember this (and about Joshua the High Priest) off the top of your head or did you need to look it up? I'm not saying it's bad if you did look it up, just more hats off to you if it was from memory.

I didn't want to appear as if I knew the answer by looking it up when I didn't know it when you asked. I did remember Job as the first time he was called "satan" though

Off the top of my head. I went through the Bible once to see when Satan turned up and who else was involved.

 

[4Jesus]

Hello 4Jesus,

And can the daily sacrifice he puts an end to be any other than this:

Mal 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its setting, my name is great among the nations; And everywhere they bring sacrifice to my name, and a pure offering; For great is my name among the nations, says the LORD of hosts.

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

Jesus The Messiah is supposed to have (has for believers); non-Messianic Jews still haven't received that message though (not that they're still sacrificing animals or offering burnt...offerings).

That being said, the Jews to this day are still waiting for their messiah, which they rejected Jesus as. Could verse 26 compound the messiah they're supposed to receive, "the prince"...

Once the beast shows up publicly, in Revelation 13, they'll believe their messiah has come, and I'm presuming they'll restart their sacrifices to/for him, since they haven't believed that a new covenant has been made by God-the-Father, and in this case, "the beast" who does away with the sacrifices, mirroring God-the-Father sending God-the-Son as sufficient for payment of sins.