I wonder where this might lead...

[4Jesus]

Note that God starts the conversation with Satan and mentions Job to him. . . .

Yeah, that should've been enough for the idiot...

 

[4Jesus]

Off the top of my head. I went through the Bible once to see when Satan turned up and who else was involved.

Nice.

 

[brakelite]

I don't think God's actions depend on what others think. What would the angels think if God behaved like that? I think God does what is best for His creation. That is what I have faith in if I don't understand something.

And yet almost half the angels themselves, despite seeing God face to face for however long, didn't trust Him.

 

[brakelite]

Okay, I can see this, but it's not Satan's justice that will be done. It's God's justice based on His law. IOW, Satan is not the judge. Actually, Jesus is the defense attorney as our High Priest.

If I may make a suggestion, correct me of course if you disagree. The death that is the result of sin is not all arbitrary judgement on the part of God... Nor is it a demonic judgement IMO. Sin separates us from God. God is the life giver. Without our connection to the only source of life, death is inevitable. Death therefore is the fruit of sin... Not just something God decided might be an appropriate punishment.

Note that God starts the conversation with Satan and mentions Job to him. . . .

God started the conversation by challenging Satan's right to be at the meeting.
What are you doing here?
Oh, I'm here because I represent earth...I just marked my territory walking backwards and forwards upon it.
Oh really? All the earth is yours you think? Have you considered My servant, Job?

 

[4Jesus]

And yet almost half the angels themselves, despite seeing God face to face for however long, didn't trust Him.

lol, no one said they were the smartest 1/3 (or half, or whatever number) of the angels...could've been the bottom of the barrel, as angels go of course

 

[brakelite]

lol, no one said they were the smartest 1/3 (or half, or whatever number) of the angels...could've been the bottom of the barrel, as angels go of course

LOL. Don't think we are any smarter though. I think most of us would be hard pressed to be chosen to even get into the barrel. At least based on intelligence anyway.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

We see in the case of Joshua the High Priest that Satan's accusation happened to be true. God's solution was to give him clean clothes. Then he wasn't "guilty" anymore.

Satan's accusations usually do have an element of truth to them, but it's still not HIS justice. Remember that Satan is a liar and the father of lies. Anything he says will be twisted in some way. The devil can't help but to lie, unless he can't lie when he's talking to God, LOL.

I'm still trying to figure out where you got the idea of "demonic justice."

Also, you said that God's justice always has mercy with it. I had asked you what you mean by this. God is a merciful God, to be sure. He is full of mercy and lovingkindness. Some people think that because He is merciful, he wouldn't exact eternal punishment on people, but I believe the Bible says He does. I don't mean to open a can of worms here. I'm sure there are other threads that debate this, I just mean to say that while you and I agree that God is merciful, He does sentence the unrepentant to eternal punishment.
.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I do not think however that Satan was cast down to the earth. That comes later. He was surely cast down out of the third heaven of Fire for the most part -- so he's now in the second heaven of Air. He will then be cast down into the lowest heaven of water; and then to the earth.

I wanted to revisit this, if that's okay with you. Especially the part where you say that you don't think Satan was cast down to the earth.

In the book of Job, we see that Satan is roaming the earth.

Job 1:7--And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

We see that Satan was allowed to afflict Job (who was on the earth, of course). I have read that Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible. I say this because you're saying that Satan being cast down to earth is a future event; however, we see that he was roaming the earth when the book of Job was written.

Also, how can Satan be the "god of this world" if he's not present on the earth? I think that I already quoted this.

2 Cor 4:4--In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And how is it that we wrestle against the devil and his demonic forces if they are not on this earth where we are? Paul calls these demonic forces the "rulers of the darkness of this world." There are plenty of verses that talk about the devil's influence on humans. Here are a few.

Eph 6:12--For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Tim 2:26--In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

John 8:44--Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[Giuliano]

And yet almost half the angels themselves, despite seeing God face to face for however long, didn't trust Him.

May I ask your source for this? Revelation following the seventh trump?

God started the conversation by challenging Satan's right to be at the meeting.
What are you doing here?

I don't read that as a challenge. It was not "What are you doing here," but rather "where have you come from"?

Oh, I'm here because I represent earth...I just marked my territory walking backwards and forwards upon it.

I read it as a simple answer. I'd say he was walking to and fro, seeking people to devour.

Oh really? All the earth is yours you think? Have you considered My servant, Job?

Then it's Satan who gives the challenge and makes the accusation.

 

[brakelite]

Just continuing the main thrust of the thread, in case you've forgotten...linking Freemasonry...the Catholic Church...UN etc

 

[Giuliano]

Satan's accusations usually do have an element of truth to them, but it's still not HIS justice. Remember that Satan is a liar and the father of lies. Anything he says will be twisted in some way. The devil can't help but to lie.

I'm still trying to figure out where you got the idea of "demonic justice."

Also, you said that God's justice always has mercy with it. I had asked you what you mean by this. God is a merciful God, to be sure. He is full of mercy and lovingkindness. Some people think that because He is merciful, he wouldn't exact eternal punishment on people, but I believe the Bible says He does. I don't mean to open a can of worms here. I'm sure there are other threads that debate this, I just mean to say that while you and I agree that God is merciful, He does sentence the unrepentant to eternal punishment.
.

Because Satan demands the death penalty for sin no matter what. That's his idea of justice.

I wanted to revisit this, if that's okay with you.

In the book of Job, we see that Satan is roaming the earth.

Job 1:7--And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

I have read that Job is one of the oldest books in the Bible. I say this because you're saying that Satan being cast down to earth is a future event; however, we see that he was roaming the earth when the book of Job was written.

Also, how can Satan be the "god of this world" if he's not present on the earth?

Think about it. Angels can come down to the earth too. That doesn't mean they were cast down. If Satan had been cast down to the earth, he couldn't get back up into Heaven. I assure you that there are areas of Heaven he's not allowed in.

I think that I already quoted this.

2 Cor 4:4--In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And how is it that we wrestle against the devil and his demonic forces if they are not on this earth where we are? Paul calls these demonic forces the "rulers of the darkness of this world." There are plenty of verses that talk about the devil's influence on humans. Here are a few.

Eph 6:12--For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

2 Tim 2:26--In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

John 8:44--Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
.

I did not say the devil could not operate on the earth. I said he hadn't yet been cast out of all three heavens. That means he's free to go, up and down in the heavens he's allowed in.

I think he was thrown out of the Third Heaven at the time of Noah along with several archdemons. Many of those had violated the Law of Free Will and were put in spiritual prison. Those who hadn't violated that law were not imprisoned.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Other things got changed then too. A barrier was put up between the lowest heaven (lower waters) and the earth. That lowest heaven is also what many call the astral plane. Prior to that, man on the earth could see everything on the astral plane. Demonic beings would appear on the astral plane and communicate easily with people. That's what made evil increase so much before Noah. Other cultures preserve similar traditions. The Chinese say that their ancestors used to appear to the eldest son at the north side of the house. They offered them incense and food. This is where some of the stories of the Greek gods (so-called) came from too. How easily the fallen ones could chat with humans. There had already been a barrier between upper and lower waters to stop the free flow of demons so easily between those two heavens; and then in the time of Noah, a similar firmament was put in place between the astral plane and the earth.

At that point too, mankind lost its direct access to the greater and lesser lights and the stars that were in the firmament. Thereafter mankind in general has access to the Divine Light only through the "rainbow".

Someone born of water has access to both those heavens of water. Others do not but try to break in. This is where necromancy comes in, people trying to talk to people "on the other side."

Someone born of the Spirit has access to the earth and all three heavens -- although not necessarily to every place in them.

Prior to the Flood, hybrid creatures were also generated by the coupling of the fallen ones with women. At that time, they could grant their offspring immortality. Some of these creatures, neither human nor angel, are still around. I'd say David got rid of a lot of them in his day. He called them the "wicked ones." They were born in human bodies -- and David said they were evil from birth. So they were -- they were not really human. The decree went forth then that no individual angel could immortalize any soul; and it was enforced. I do not know the ins and outs of it for sure; but my guess is it's Jesus' call if a soul can be made immortal, made in consultation with all the angels. I know it's under the control of Heaven now. I don't know how many of these hybrid offspring are still around. It's briefly mentioned in the Bible; but pagan cultures knew about the "gods" mating with humans and producing hybrids.

Satan is called the "god of this world" because so many people in this world unwittingly worship him -- not because he's limited to walking the earth.

The dragon is cast out of the Second Heaven (that of air) at the Seventh Trump. The trumpets show it's air. He loses his spot as "prince of the air" then and is cast to the earth. I know many people may be tempted to think Revelation 12 is old history -- but it isn't. John says at the beginning and end of the book, that he's describing future events. I take him at his word. Satan lost his footing in the Third Heaven long ago; but he remains in the Air -- and falls again at the Seventh Trump, this time to the earth. After that, events in the lowest heaven, of water, are described. The astral plane is cleaned up. Notice that events in the Trumps are similar to those in the Vials. (Vials are a clue that it has to do with liquids.) The plane of air was already cleaned up; next it's the plane of water. Note too that Our Lady of Babylon "sits" on waters. It's the astral plane with all its unclean creatures. Level by level, moving downwards, what is true already in God's heaven (the Third and Highest) is being made true below. When all three are cleansed, it's time to deal with the earth. Satan is rounded up, and that's that, at least for a thousand years.

 

[Giuliano]

Just continuing the main thrust of the thread, in case you've forgotten...linking Freemasonry...the Catholic Church...UN etc

I thought Catholics weren't allowed to be Freemasons, so what is Georgetown University doing?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Think about it. Angels can come down to the earth too. That doesn't mean they were cast down. If Satan had been cast down to the earth, he couldn't get back up into Heaven. I assure you that there are areas of Heaven he's not allowed in.

Why wouldn't he be able to get back up to heaven?? This is faulty human logic.

Other things got changed then too. A barrier was put up between the lowest heaven (lower waters) and the earth. That lowest heaven is also what many call the astral plane. Prior to that, man on the earth could see everything on the astral plane. Demonic beings would appear on the astral plane and communicate easily with people. That's what made evil increase so much before Noah. Other cultures preserve similar traditions. The Chinese say that their ancestors used to appear to the eldest son at the north side of the house. They offered them incense and food. This is where some of the stories of the Greek gods (so-called) came from too. How easily the fallen ones could chat with humans. There had already been a barrier between upper and lower waters to stop the free flow of demons so easily between those two heavens; and then in the time of Noah, a similar firmament was put in place between the astral plane and the earth.

At that point too, mankind lost its direct access to the greater and lesser lights and the stars that were in the firmament. Thereafter mankind in general has access to the Divine Light only through the "rainbow".

Someone born of water has access to both those heavens of water. Others do not but try to break in. This is where necromancy comes in, people trying to talk to people "on the other side."

Someone born of the Spirit has access to the earth and all three heavens -- although not necessarily to every place in them.

Prior to the Flood, hybrid creatures were also generated by the coupling of the fallen ones with women. At that time, they could grant their offspring immortality. Some of these creatures, neither human nor angel, are still around. I'd say David got rid of a lot of them in his day. He called them the "wicked ones." They were born in human bodies -- and David said they were evil from birth. So they were -- they were not really human. The decree went forth then that no individual angel could immortalize any soul; and it was enforced. I do not know the ins and outs of it for sure; but my guess is it's Jesus' call if a soul can be made immortal, made in consultation with all the angels. I know it's under the control of Heaven now. I don't know how many of these hybrid offspring are still around. It's briefly mentioned in the Bible; but pagan cultures knew about the "gods" mating with humans and producing hybrids.

Satan is called the "god of this world" because so many people in this world unwittingly worship him -- not because he's limited to walking the earth.

The dragon is cast out of the Second Heaven (that of air) at the Seventh Trump. The trumpets show it's air. He loses his spot as "prince of the air" then and is cast to the earth. I know many people may be tempted to think Revelation 12 is old history -- but it isn't. John says at the beginning and end of the book, that he's describing future events. I take him at his word. Satan lost his footing in the Third Heaven long ago; but he remains in the Air -- and falls again at the Seventh Trump, this time to the earth. After that, events in the lowest heaven, of water, are described. The astral plane is cleaned up. Notice that events in the Trumps are similar to those in the Vials. (Vials are a clue that it has to do with liquids.) The plane of air was already cleaned up; next it's the plane of water. Note too that Our Lady of Babylon "sits" on waters. It's the astral plane with all its unclean creatures. Level by level, moving downwards, what is true already in God's heaven (the Third and Highest) is being made true below. When all three are cleansed, it's time to deal with the earth. Satan is rounded up, and that's that, at least for a thousand years.

I see a lot of conjecture in the things you're saying here, but I don't have time to discuss them right at this moment. Later....
.

 

[Giuliano]

Why wouldn't he be able to get back up to heaven?? This is faulty human logic.

You reduce being cast down out of heaven to nothing of much importance then. Why are we even discussing it if you think he would be still free to come and go as he pleases after being cast down?

So God does something, and Satan says, "So what? I can get back up there?"

I'm not sure I'm interested in continuing this conversation. You say I'm using faulty human logic? I think you're being silly imagining Satan can get around God so easily.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

You reduce being cast down out of heaven to nothing of much importance then. Why are we even discussing it if you think he would be still free to come and go as he pleases after being cast down?

Again, this is faulty logic. Of course, I see the importance of the devil being cast out of heaven, AND I believe that he is still allowed access to heaven as we see in Job. But the devil no longer has a place of prominence at God's throne.

 

[bbyrd009]

"but the devil no longer has a place of prominence at God's throne" is a quite interesting fact, though, see, and i'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, however, how might you prove this fact? Being as how Satan can apparently freely approach God's throne and you nor i (ostensibly...supposedly) cannot?
Not meaning to use this against you, as i do agree in sporit ok, but it was too handy an illustration, if you will forgive me

The serpent was indeed cunning. He could get his idea across without actually telling a lie himself. Say something true and let Eve's mind go wild and come up with something on its own.

the "father" of lies, yeh!
my current theory is "facts"

 

[bbyrd009]

Ye shall not surely die. A&E died.

we know that with hindsight, yes, however a pertinent observation remains that from their pov they did not die literally, right then, as they might have expected from the warning. The same thing we experience, imo, when we founded the world; we die spiritually

Also, he was intimating that God lied. That insinuation is a lie.

yet from their pov his fact was completely true, the same as it is for us, yeh? A point being that facts can easily be taken for truth, and logically even demonstrated as such, imo

 

[Philip James]

I thought Catholics weren't allowed to be Freemasons,

They are not. The masons have been plotting the destruction of the Catholic church for at least 100 years...
As far as I know, an automatic penalty of excommunication still applies to any Catholic who joins them.

Peace!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

They are not. The masons have been plotting the destruction of the Catholic church for at least 100 years...
As far as I know, an automatic penalty of excommunication still applies to any Catholic who joins them.

Peace!

View attachment 7432[/QUOTE]

I'm not speaking for Giuliano, but this pic at Georgetown University (the oldest Catholic university in America, according to Wikipedia) shows the main Masonic symbol on the wall.

 

[bbyrd009]

And yet almost half the angels themselves, despite seeing God face to face for however long, didn't trust Him.

hmm, not sure "trust" is the...thing they did not do...James 2:19 Lexicon: You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. wherein "believe" turns to "have faith in" in the orig. So i dunno there