What Mormons Believe--according to a Former BYU Professor

[Prayer Warrior]

There you go. Our religions are different. If Adolph Hitler found Christ in his bunker at that last minute, you would be standing shoulder to shoulder with Him in the Highest Heaven.

Wow! What an off-the-wall hypothetical response. Is this what you do when you can't support your argument scripturally?

 

[Grailhunter]

Not at all. You say, that believers ARE seated IN Jesus Christ at the highest level already. My example is an extreme, we can back that off to murders or rapists....Does the Bible say that murders will be in Heaven?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Not at all. You say, that believers ARE seated IN Jesus Christ at the highest level already. My example is an extreme, we can back that off to murders or rapists....Does the Bible say that murders will be in Heaven?

Still hypothetical! Let's stick with what the Bible says. If these verses don't mean what they say, then what do they mean???

Ephesians 2:4-7--But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:34--Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Galatians 2:26-27--For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

 

[Giuliano]

The quote that Prayer Warrior is referencing and that subject arent in the Doctrine and Covenants.

LDS Christians readily acknowledge that many many non-LDS folks are indeed disciples of Christ (Christians) and will be rejoicing with Him in the eternities

(Sorry for short post, i’m on my phone and it’s awkward, will respond longer once back in my computer)

I'm still curious how things can be explained.

Prayer Warrior didn't quote from D&C, but the paraphrase seemed close to me, "And I'm talking about doctrines central to Mormonism, like the belief that God the Father was once as man (as human men are)." So what those D&C say?

Doctrine and Covenants 130:
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

That speculation isn't even an official LDS Christian doctrine, nor dwelt upon in LDS church, you'll find folks with all sorts of opinions on the manner, and none of them are what a Creedal Christian would think.

Okay, so how Prayer Warrior put it wasn't an exact quote; but I would think what is in D&C would be official LDS doctrine. Is there an explanation for this teaching that God has a body of flesh and bones?

 

[Grailhunter]

Still hypothetical! Let's stick with what the Bible says. If these verses don't mean what they say, then what do they mean???

Ephesians 2:4-7--But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:34--Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Galatians 2:26-27--For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

I am not going to assume you do not know the scriptures....you are just not quoting the scriptures that pertain to murder.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I am not going to assume you do not know the scriptures....you are just not quoting the scriptures that pertain to murder.

What??? Do you think that murderers cannot be saved?? I hope not because Jesus said whoever hates his brother has committed murder in his heart. I would think that would apply to all of us at some time or other!

Edit: That's a loose paraphrase of Jesus said. This is the scritpure:

Matt 5:21-22-- Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

 

[Giuliano]

Still hypothetical! Let's stick with what the Bible says. If these verses don't mean what they say, then what do they mean???

Ephesians 2:4-7--But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Paul doesn't explain things, does he? Neither did Jesus when he said the Son of Man was in two places at the same time.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[Grailhunter]

What??? Do you think that murderers cannot be saved?? I hope not because Jesus said whoever hates his brother has committed murder in his heart. I would think that would apply to all of us at some time or other!

Again that is the point. I believe that murders can be saved from hell. What does the Bible say about murders in heaven?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Again that is the point. I believe that murders can be saved from hell. What does the Bible say about murders in heaven?

You mean what does the Bible say about murderers in heaven? I don't believe that God differentiates between types of sin when it comes to salvation. Do you think that murderers are less forgiven than adulterers or liars when they confess their sins??

1 John 1:9--If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Paul doesn't explain things, does he? Neither did Jesus when he said the Son of Man was in two places at the same time.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Paul explains a lot. I believe that he explains what we need to know in order to live godly lives as believers here and now. But like he said in 1 Cor 13:12, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

[Grailhunter]

You mean what does the Bible say about murderers in heaven? I don't believe that God differentiates between types of sin when it comes to salvation. Do you think that murderers are less forgiven than adulterers or liars when they confess their sins??

1 John 1:9--If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Now you are trying to convince me that you do not know the scriptures about murderers. They make no distinction between saved or not saved.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Now you are trying to convince me that you do not know the scriptures about murderers. They make no distinction between saved or not saved.

So, murderers cannot confess their sin of murder, repent, and be forgiven?? Where do you find this idea in the NT?

 

[Grailhunter]

So, murderers cannot confess their sin of murder, repent, and be forgiven?? Where do you find this idea in the NT?

Really!


Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1st John 3:15
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

No distinction between saved or not saved in these scriptures.

Now your next argument should be...what about Paul?

 

[Giuliano]

Paul explains a lot. I believe that he explains what we need to know in order to live godly lives as believers here and now. But like he said in 1 Cor 13:12, "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

That's pleading ignorance. . . . I'd say he's right too. We should admit it when we don't know.

What he did not explain (so far as I can see) is how we can be here on the earth and still at the same time be seated in heavenly places.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Really!


Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1st John 3:15
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

No distinction between saved or not saved in these scriptures.

Now your next argument should be...what about Paul?

In Galatians 5, Paul is saying that those who "practice" these sins will not inherit the kingdom of God. A person who repents is no longer practicing these sins. And look at that list! Are you saying that people who ever COMMIT any of these sins will not inherit God's kingdom?? I think this would rule ALL of us out.

Jesus said that ALL manner of sin will be forgiven, except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Matt 12:31-- Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

That's pleading ignorance. . . . I'd say he's right too. We should admit it when we don't know.

What he did not explain (so far as I can see) is how we can be here on the earth and still at the same time be seated in heavenly places.

No idea what that first comment means, but no, I don't think Paul explains this anywhere. This doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't understand it. But I don't think we need to understand how this works in order to live the Christian life.

 

[Giuliano]

No idea what that first comment means, but no, I don't think Paul explains this anywhere. I don't think we NEED to understand how this works in order to live the Christian life.

If we are looking a mirror with spots on it to see what is going on, we'll miss seeing some things so we'll be ignorant of the things we can't see. There is nothing wrong with not knowing it all. It's worse to think we know if we don't.

I think maybe Paul wrote about being in heavenly places to try to get his readers to "imagine" it in their minds eyes if they could.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

If we are looking a mirror with spots on it to see what is going on, we'll miss seeing some things so we'll be ignorant of the things we can't see. There is nothing wrong with not knowing it all. It's worse to think we know if we don't.

I think maybe Paul wrote about being in heavenly places to try to get his readers to "imagine" it in their minds eyes if they could.

Hmm, I think he would have said as much. "Now try to imagine that you are seated in heaven with Jesus...."

This is not what he said at all. He's pretty straightforward about it. God "has raised us up." He "has made us to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:4-7--But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

I don't think our minds can necessarily grasp this, but I believe it is the way it is. I don't think we need to understand this fully. There's a lot that I don't understand fully, like salvation. I know what the Bible says about it, but I don't understand all that takes place within the human spirit and soul when we are born again....
.

 

[Grailhunter]

So, murderers cannot confess their sin of murder, repent, and be forgiven?? Where do you find this idea in the NT?

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1st John 3:15
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

No distinction between saved or not saved in these scriptures.

In both instances they are writing to Christians.

Now you know why I believe;
1. Saved is an instant in time, based on faith alone, and it is saved from hell not a ticket to heaven.
2. Why I believe in the levels of spiritual destinations.
3. Why I believe so strongly regarding hate...no hate....it fuels Satan and is paramount to murder.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1st John 3:15
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

No distinction between saved or not saved in these scriptures.

In both instances they are writing to Christians.

Now you know why I believe;
1. Saved is an instant in time, based on faith alone, and it is saved from hell not a ticket to heaven.
2. Why I believe in the levels of spiritual destinations.
3. Why I believe so strongly regarding hate...no hate....it fuels Satan and is paramount to murder.

You didn't answer my question. Do you believe that murderers cannot be forgiven and go to heaven?

Or are you saying that no one can go to heaven?