Forsaken

[bbyrd009]

May I suggest that you make your points in a new thread and link my name. I will then try to answer them. I think you're off-topic on this thread. But I will say this: if Christ has not saved me then I am not saved. Any works that I do in my own strength are inevitably flawed and unacceptable to a holy God.

so you have been taught Steve, but imo that is crap too bro, sorry. Now we would need to have a little discussion on the definition of "works" i guess, missionaries v natives kinda thing, and are deeds works or what, but that is, mostly, horse puckey imo bro, some yack some Esau Guy teaches us bc he doesnt know any better either. Trust that Yah delights in your good deeds, imo; missionaries i would light the fire under the pot myself though, yeh

 

[Steve Owen]

so you have been taught Steve,

Well this is cheap and easy, isn't it? You know nothing whatever about me or what I've been, or not been, taught. I could just say the exact same thing about you.

but imo that is crap too bro, sorry.

And if you can't keep a civil tongue in your head, I have no desire to debate with you. You didn't learn that anywhere, I think; that comes straight from the heart. 'For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts.....lewdness, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.' And foul language too.

 

[John Caldwell]

ok, bye Steve. No offense meant ok, im just done trying to get guys like you to address any points. Yes, Yah has given all judgement to the Son, and all will be judged by the Son, right?contracts for Jesus and is either you or teaching you is saying

well, cant sit in a person imo, but i agree anyway i guess.

1 Peter 1:17-19 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

 

[bbyrd009]

You know nothing whatever about me or wh

This is not true, I am aware of the statements you have made here, and I am replying based upon them?

 

[bbyrd009]

Any works that I do in my own strength are inevitably flawed and unacceptable to a holy God.

Case in point right here; you made a statement, and I replied? So I didn’t mean to say that I know anything more about you than that, But you have to grant me now that I am aware of that, correct? What you just told me?

 

[bbyrd009]

And if you can't keep a civil tongue in your head, I have no desire to debate with you.

No offense Steve but that last part is pretty obvious, and the first part is functionally irrelevant, I mean unless you are my mommy or the thread police? And I’m on data now, OK? So Have a nice day ok Steve, no offense meant ok?

wadr you are always free to apply that “Righteousness as filthy Rags“to your next post, your reply, right?

 

[bbyrd009]

1 Peter 1:17-19 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

“If” yeh?

 

[Steve Owen]

Any works that I do in my own strength are inevitably flawed and unacceptable to a holy God.

Case in point right here; you made a statement, and I replied? So I didn’t mean to say that I know anything more about you than that, But you have to grant me now that I am aware of that, correct? What you just told me?

You miss the point entirely. You have no idea whether that thought just popped into my head a moment before I wrote it; whether I was taught it as part of my PhD in theology or whether I find it very clearly taught in the Bible after detailed study. So where do you get off telling me that I was taught it?

 

[bbyrd009]

No offense Steve but that last part is pretty obvious, and the first part is functionally irrelevant, I mean unless you are my mommy or the thread police? And I’m on data now, OK? So Have a nice day ok Steve, no offense meant ok?

wadr you are always free to apply that “Righteousness as filthy Rags“to your next post, your reply, right?

Why don’t we ever do this, I wonder? All my righteousness is as filthy rags, right, but the next thing out of my mouth, that’s pure gold, huh
lol

 

[bbyrd009]

You miss the point entirely. You have no idea whether that thought just popped into my head a moment before I wrote it; whether I was taught it as part of my PhD in theology or whether I find it very clearly taught in the Bible after detailed study. So where do you get off telling me that I was taught it?

Well I guess I didn’t mean that like it sounded? Aren’t you taught everything that you know? Professors lectured You on the way to your ostensible PhD? Etc?

 

[Steve Owen]

Well I guess I didn’t mean that like it sounded? Aren’t you taught everything that you know?

Well I'll take that as an apology and accept it. I have had other people telling me that my beliefs are some tradition that I learned whereas their superior understanding comes from their own study. It's an obnoxious form of oneupmanship and I tend to react against it. Let's move on. If you want to start a new thread on whatever point you're trying to make, I'll join in.

BTW, I don't have a PhD in theology

 

[John Caldwell]

“If” yeh?

εἰ .

It would be more accurate to have rendered it "since you address as Father..." It is not conditional in the passage.

 

[mjrhealth]

I'm not going to argue with a Hebrew expert as you clearly are, but I will note that nowhere in the O.T. is sabach (Strongs 5442) used as a verb.

I have no problems at all with you finding an allusion to Genesis 22 in the verses. Such things abound in the Scriptures. I do have a very serious problem with any suggestion that our Lord did not cry out, "My God, My God, Why have You forsaken Me" because that is what the Holy Spirit inspired Matthew and Mark to write.

Whole discussion on this topic

Did the Messiah Speak Aramaic or Hebrew? (Part 2) by E.A.Knapp

 

[mjrhealth]

I see it the same.

But I see this as God abandoning Christ to the Cross (withholding deliverance from death) rather than abandoning Christ while He was on the Cross (God withdrawing from Christ) as I do not view God as departing from Christ.

Do you believe that "forsaken" means that God withdrew from Christ?

We all know God cannot look upon a sinful person hence Christs sacrifice for us, hence when Jesus was on that Cross carrying the sins of " all men", God could not be with Him nor look upon Him, it is His Holiness and Righteousness, remember what He said to Moses,

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

One can only presume that if Christ was to look upon the father while in His " sinful" state he would have ended up the same way.

 

[bbyrd009]

εἰ .

It would be more accurate to have rendered it "since you address as Father..." It is not conditional in the passage.

Here I would be reflecting on the passages that say “don’t be calling anyone father,” And wondering if it is in fact conditional after all

 

[bbyrd009]

If you want to start a new thread on whatever point you're trying to make, I'll join in.

Why not just back up and answer the questions and join in now?
i think the last inferred Q was "all must come before the judgement seat?"
would you like to address that now

 

[John Caldwell]

We all know God cannot look upon a sinful person hence Christs sacrifice for us, hence when Jesus was on that Cross carrying the sins of " all men", God could not be with Him nor look upon Him, it is His Holiness and Righteousness, remember what He said to Moses,

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

One can only presume that if Christ was to look upon the father while in His " sinful" state he would have ended up the same way.

The problem, IMHO, is that we have to be very careful not to form a dichotomy between God and Jesus. If Jesus is God then he is immutable in His nature as well. Man looked upon Christ as He set aside that glory - but Scripture seems to indicate having do so He remained God.

It is a topic we probably cannot fully grasp (not being gods). But I think of it this way (just an illustration): If I were to set aside my sight and trust a friend for all guidance, obeying his every instruction rather than relying on my sight, my nature would not change. I could see, except I set aside that ability to trust in my friend.

I know it's just an illustration and can probably be easily dismissed. But that's how I think of it.

 

[John Caldwell]

Here I would be reflecting on the passages that say “don’t be calling anyone father,” And wondering if it is in fact conditional after all

I think "don't call anyone father" refers to men (we do not elevate man in the place of God). We have to keep in mind that Christ often spoke of God as Father, not only His but ours.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think "don't call anyone father" refers to men

excuse me?
Matthew 23:9 Lexicon: "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
who might "anyone on earth" be then, you lost me sry

(we do not elevate man in the place of God)

exc...what?
pls dont be ridic, of course we do
1 Samuel 8

We have to keep in mind that Christ often spoke of God as Father,

we do? why? In this context, i mean? Seems apropos of nothing, pls help. i think

we have to be very careful not to form a dichotomy between God and Jesus

like hell we do, jesus cults are for chumps bro, sry
why do you call Me good? No one is good but Yah

we have to be very careful with our statements made from satans dialectic maybe narf, but srsly bro and i know you wont like this but Jesus did not die for our sins, Bible Search: Jesus died for our sins that was just a cover story to get our bloodthirst little minds started on the path, a surface reading, the hidden from the wise part? and you can tell bc everything they say sounds like an Edict, Sent From Above or at the very least a Hard Fact, right? them wise guys? Who caint really state a single Absolute Truth least near as i can tell an ive been steadily relaxin the definition as i go too, not even close to "there are no round squares" anymore, would you like to try? again, i mean? Bc i dont think one "exists"

anyway, just since you brought it up

 

[John Caldwell]

excuse me?
Matthew 23:9 Lexicon: "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
who might "anyone on earth" be then, you lost me sry
exc...what?
pls dont be ridic, of course we do
we do? why? In this context, i mean? Seems apropos of nothing, pls help. i think
like hell we do, jesus cults are for chumps bro, sry
why do you call Me good? No one is good but Yah

You are agreeing with me (except the last part where you draw a distinction between Christ and God) while appearing not to agree with me. I like that. It's like a riddle that, when solved, makes you forget the initial question.