Romans 7 and 8 without confusing verses

[CharismaticLady]

One problem I see with many who relate themselves to the struggle with sin of Romans 7 is there is a chapter break before they see that Romans 8:2 is freedom from the struggle with sin. They even believe chapter 7 is Paul's constant struggle with sin as an apostle! But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was. But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh, without the Spirit of Christ in him. Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.

I've taken the liberty to just show a condensed rearranged version of Romans 7 and 8 without the chapter break and the confusing misinterpreted description of the life of struggle under the law. I have not changed wording, just dropped verses and rearranged verses to show the true power of Spirit. I hope this edit of Scripture will help those who have twisted this portion of Scripture to mean a Christian will always struggle with sin, even with the Holy Spirit in them, a total heresy.

Romans 7 and 8 without the struggle of those under the law

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

 

[amadeus]

@CharismaticLady

Give God the glory!

 

[Enoch111]

But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh, without the Spirit of Christ in him.

You have either totally MISUNDERSTOOD Romans 7:18-23, or you have DELIBERATELY MISREPRESENTED THAT PASSAGE.

Paul is speaking as a regenerated (born-again) Christian where his "inward man" is his new nature indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And it is on that basis that he says this:

THE OLD NATURE (THE FLESH) HAS NOT BEEN ERADICATED
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

THE FLESH RESISTS THE SPIRIT
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

THE SIN NATURE REMAINS IN THE BELIEVER
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

THE NEW NATURE DELIGHTS IN THE LAW OF GOD
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

THE FLESH WARS AGAINST THE SPIRIT
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul is not giving Christians an excuse to sin, or an excuse to struggle, since the Holy Spirit can overcome the flesh, as long as the believer mortifies (puts to death) the flesh. He is simply presenting the reality of what is within the Christian, and no Christian can claim -- even with the best of intentions -- that he or she is sinlessly perfect. The apostle John makes that perfectly clear.

CharismaticLady, you and a couple of others, are falsely claiming sinless perfection, and deceiving yourselves by making God a liar. So be careful what you post, since you will be held accountable for promoting false doctrine.

 

[Candidus]

You have either totally MISUNDERSTOOD Romans 7:18-23, or you have DELIBERATELY MISREPRESENTED THAT PASSAGE.

Paul is speaking as a regenerated (born-again) Christian where his "inward man" is his new nature indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And it is on that basis that he says this:

THE OLD NATURE (THE FLESH) HAS NOT BEEN ERADICATED
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

THE FLESH RESISTS THE SPIRIT
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

THE SIN NATURE REMAINS IN THE BELIEVER
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

THE NEW NATURE DELIGHTS IN THE LAW OF GOD
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

THE FLESH WARS AGAINST THE SPIRIT
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul is not giving Christians an excuse to sin, or an excuse to struggle, since the Holy Spirit can overcome the flesh, as long as the believer mortifies (puts to death) the flesh. He is simply presenting the reality of what is within the Christian, and no Christian can claim -- even with the best of intentions -- that he or she is sinlessly perfect. The apostle John makes that perfectly clear.

CharismaticLady, you and a couple of others, are falsely claiming sinless perfection, and deceiving yourselves by making God a liar. So be careful what you post, since you will be held accountable for promoting false doctrine.

If that's describing the new nature, give me the old! Statistics of this man from verses 5-24: He uses "I" 28 times; "Law" 21 times; "sin" 16 times; "Me" and "My" 17 times; "Dead" 8 times; "Death" 5 times, AND NOTHING OF CHRIST. When he finds Christ in verse 25, he moves on to 8:1 and finds "no condemnation". When you have nothing but "yourself", the "law", and the end result, "death", you can see why Paul never again glories in himself! In Romans seven Paul is self centered, and in Romans eight he is Christ Centered.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You have either totally MISUNDERSTOOD Romans 7:18-23, or you have DELIBERATELY MISREPRESENTED THAT PASSAGE.

Paul is speaking as a regenerated (born-again) Christian where his "inward man" is his new nature indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And it is on that basis that he says this:

THE OLD NATURE (THE FLESH) HAS NOT BEEN ERADICATED
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

THE FLESH RESISTS THE SPIRIT
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

THE SIN NATURE REMAINS IN THE BELIEVER
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

THE NEW NATURE DELIGHTS IN THE LAW OF GOD
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

THE FLESH WARS AGAINST THE SPIRIT
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul is not giving Christians an excuse to sin, or an excuse to struggle, since the Holy Spirit can overcome the flesh, as long as the believer mortifies (puts to death) the flesh. He is simply presenting the reality of what is within the Christian, and no Christian can claim -- even with the best of intentions -- that he or she is sinlessly perfect. The apostle John makes that perfectly clear.

CharismaticLady, you and a couple of others, are falsely claiming sinless perfection, and deceiving yourselves by making God a liar. So be careful what you post, since you will be held accountable for promoting false doctrine.

Do you not see the Romans 8:2 is the conclusion of Romans 7-8-23, and that we are free from that struggle? I don't know why you are against sinless perfection when it is Jesus who gave us the power through His Own Spirit.

 

[Dcopymope]

Do you not see the Romans 8:2 is the conclusion of Romans 7-8-23, and that we are free from that struggle? I don't know why you are against sinless perfection when it is Jesus who gave us the power through His Own Spirit.

When Peter speaks of "sinless perfection", he tells the believer not to look for it in this world, but in the world to come.

(2 Peter 3:10-13) "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. {11} Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, {12} Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? {13} Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

If we can be brought into sinless perfection in this life, then why does Paul say we still need Jesus as our intercessor?

(Romans 8:26-27) "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. {27} And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

 

[Paul Christensen]

You have either totally MISUNDERSTOOD Romans 7:18-23, or you have DELIBERATELY MISREPRESENTED THAT PASSAGE.

Paul is speaking as a regenerated (born-again) Christian where his "inward man" is his new nature indwelt by the Holy Spirit. And it is on that basis that he says this:

THE OLD NATURE (THE FLESH) HAS NOT BEEN ERADICATED
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

THE FLESH RESISTS THE SPIRIT
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

THE SIN NATURE REMAINS IN THE BELIEVER
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

THE NEW NATURE DELIGHTS IN THE LAW OF GOD
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

THE FLESH WARS AGAINST THE SPIRIT
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul is not giving Christians an excuse to sin, or an excuse to struggle, since the Holy Spirit can overcome the flesh, as long as the believer mortifies (puts to death) the flesh. He is simply presenting the reality of what is within the Christian, and no Christian can claim -- even with the best of intentions -- that he or she is sinlessly perfect. The apostle John makes that perfectly clear.

CharismaticLady, you and a couple of others, are falsely claiming sinless perfection, and deceiving yourselves by making God a liar. So be careful what you post, since you will be held accountable for promoting false doctrine.

It results from a flawed gospel that does not start with the Ten Commandments to show the unsaved person the extent of his or her sinfulness. This causes many converts, especially in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, to "accept Jesus in their hearts" without knowing that they are hopeless sinners, deserving of hell. Too many adopt Christianity without having any real conviction of sin, so they have no real idea of exactly why Jesus died on the cross.

When a faithful witness for Christ warned people in a mainstream Charismatic meeting that they needed to repent of their sin and trust in the finished work of Christ, the woman preacher accused him of having a demon and had security frog march him out of the meeting.

If people don't know how deep and hateful their sin is to God, they won't see the need to repent, and they will profess Christianity while still having their hearts still back in the world along with the sins they want to keep. This means that the god that they are serving is the nice comfortable god that suits their lifestyle, instead of the God of the Bible who will bring them to judgment to answer for their sins. This is idolatry, because it is an image of God constructed in their imagination.

So if many of these are "Spirit-filled" religious people, then one has to wonder what spirit they are filled with, if they haven't fully repented and forsaken their sinful habit patterns.

But for the genuine convert, even though the power and penalty of sin has been removed, and they have sincerely repented and forsaken their sinfulness and developed a hate for sin and a love for holiness, the presence of sin is still there in their mortal bodies, which causes a conflict between the flesh and the Spirit. This is why Paul says that he beats his body into submission so he doesn't end up being a hypocrite and a castaway.

Any professing believer who doesn't have a struggle with the presence of sin in his mortal body, is not aware of the sinfulness of sin that a genuine convert has whose heart yearns for full holiness, and groans and mourns because he can't achieve the holiness his heart strongly desires.

The awareness of the presence of sin in a believer causes that person to run to Christ and lay hold on Him with a passion that someone who thinks they have no sin lacks, and sits in the mistaken complacency that they have "arrived".

 

[CharismaticLady]

When Peter speaks of "sinless perfection", he tells the believer not to look for it in this world, but in the world to come.

It seems you are misinterpreting 2 Peter 3:10-13 to say righteousness is only in the next world, when without holiness no man shall see God. Those who enter heaven will already be righteous or holy by the time they pass away. Revelation 22:11.

If we can be brought into sinless perfection in this life, then why does Paul say we still need Jesus as our intercessor?

There are all sorts of reasons for intercession. At the time of the writing, the Church was in deep persecution.

Christians with the Holy Spirit have already overcome sin. But, because the Holy Spirit draws all men to repent, there are many in the churches who are being saved and drawn to repent by the Spirit, but that doesn't mean He is inside of them yet. They have not overcome sin, because that can only be accomplished by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Because there are so many sinners in the churches being saved, it must seem to them in their false assurance that Christians sin. That is why they so relate to Romans 7:14-23. They are not free. Jesus may say to them, "I never knew you."

 

[Windmill Charge]

the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.[/QUOTE

The problem with sinless perfection, apart from distorting scripture is the affect on ordinary Christians struggling with sin as the quote shows.
Any Christian who struggles with sin is in there view, not a Christian.
Sinless perfection is a false pharisaical view that gives no help or encouragement to Christians struggling with sin.

1John1 also says, if we say we are without sin we deceive ourselfs.
Note we deceive ourselves.
So are you doing this to yourselves?

 

[Candidus]

When Peter speaks of "sinless perfection", he tells the believer not to look for it in this world, but in the world to come.



If we can be brought into sinless perfection in this life, then why does Paul say we still need Jesus as our intercessor?

"Sinless Perfection" is a Doctrinal Strawman invented by Antinomians. I have yet to have ever read or met anyone that ever taught the doctrine that is supposedly attacked.

 

[Enoch111]

In Romans seven Paul is self centered, and in Romans eight he is Christ Centered.

Since Romans 7 is as much THE WORD OF GOD as Romans 8, that is complete nonsense. And to prove that it is TOTAL NONSENSE we go to Galatians 5, which is all about Christians who have been saved by grace through faith.

GALATIANS 5

THE "FLESH" IS WITHIN EVERY BELIEVER
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

THE OLD ADAMIC NATURE IS IN CONFLICT WITH THE SPIRIT
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

CHRISTIANS MUST ALWAYS BE LED BY THE SPIRIT
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

THE "FLESH" IS THE SOURCE OF ALL SINFUL BEHAVIOR
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [Note: those who habitually sin are not within the Kingdom of God, and have not been born-again. Regenerated Christians do not make sinning an ongoing habit]

THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT COMES FROM THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

BELIEVERS ARE REQUIRED TO CRUCIFY THE "FLESH"
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

BELIEVERS MUST WALK IN THE SPIRIT (BE CONTROLLED BY THE SPIRIT)
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[CharismaticLady]

1 John 1:8 is not speaking of a repentant Christian, thus the reason for the next verse. And verse 10 claims they were born sinless - another lie. Paul says we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. IOW, we all need to repent to become saved. We are either a sinner or a child of God. Jesus came to take away our sin, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:1 and 5; John 8:34-36

Even the demons know Jesus and tremble. Acts 2:38 says to REPENT in order to receive the powerful Holy Spirit indwelling you changing your character to be children of God. Otherwise, there will be many who claim to be a Christian, and Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness." 1 John 3:4 says, sin is lawlessness. So beware of false teachers. I know you think I am, but I teach holiness.

The works of the law are circumcision, do not touch, taste, handle certain meats, feasts and Sabbaths. We are justified by faith, not by the works of the law. But the deadly message out of the Reformation was the twisted justified by faith alone, without morals. But Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see God. Abraham believed God and was obedient to the point of offering his son as a sacrifice, and it was imputed to him as righteousness. If Abraham was not obedient to God, he wouldn't have been righteous.

 

[Candidus]

Since Romans 7 is as much THE WORD OF GOD as Romans 8, that is complete nonsense. And to prove that it is TOTAL NONSENSE we go to Galatians 5, which is all about Christians who have been saved by grace through faith.

GALATIANS 5

THE "FLESH" IS WITHIN EVERY BELIEVER
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

THE OLD ADAMIC NATURE IS IN CONFLICT WITH THE SPIRIT
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

CHRISTIANS MUST ALWAYS BE LED BY THE SPIRIT
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

THE "FLESH" IS THE SOURCE OF ALL SINFUL BEHAVIOR
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [Note: those who habitually sin are not within the Kingdom of God, and have not been born-again. Regenerated Christians do not make sinning an ongoing habit]

THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT COMES FROM THE INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

BELIEVERS ARE REQUIRED TO CRUCIFY THE "FLESH"
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

BELIEVERS MUST WALK IN THE SPIRIT (BE CONTROLLED BY THE SPIRIT)
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

What is "nonsense" is that you defy the universal interpretation of the Church for the first three centuries until the Gnostic Influenced Augustine changed it. You give the Devil more credit in his influence on the believer than God does.

 

[CharismaticLady]

What is "nonsense" is that you defy the universal interpretation of the Church for the first three centuries until the Gnostic Influenced Augustine changed it. You give the Devil more credit in his influence on the believer than God does.

I bought a book on Augustine, but haven't read it yet, so am no expert, but I enjoyed one of his teachings entitled "Love God, and do what you want." At first glance, I thought it sounded Gnostic, but when I read the teaching, it wasn't at all. Unlike the starters of the Reformation, Augustine knew that the rebirth gave us a new nature. One that loved and obeyed God naturally. Thus, with your new instincts, do what comes naturally.

 

[Dcopymope]

It seems you are misinterpreting 2 Peter 3:10-13 to say righteousness is only in the next world, when without holiness no man shall see God. Those who enter heaven will already be righteous or holy by the time they pass away. Revelation 22:11.

There are all sorts of reasons for intercession. At the time of the writing, the Church was in deep persecution.

Christians with the Holy Spirit have already overcome sin. But, because the Holy Spirit draws all men to repent, there are many in the churches who are being saved and drawn to repent by the Spirit, but that doesn't mean He is inside of them yet. They have not overcome sin, because that can only be accomplished by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Because there are so many sinners in the churches being saved, it must seem to them in their false assurance that Christians sin. That is why they so relate to Romans 7:14-23. They are not free. Jesus may say to them, "I never knew you."

Well after searching through scripture, I just don't see sinless perfection being explicitly taught as something that can be attained in this life. When speaking of the righteousness of God, the only time Paul explicitly says that such a state can be achieved in any way is at the resurrection, not before it.

(Philippians 3:9-12) "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: {10} That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; {11} If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. {12} Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus."

And again, obviously this still ain't gonna be good enough for God since he still feels a need to make a new heaven and a new earth, "wherein dwelleth righteousness", meaning without the possibility of sin and the very knowledge of it ever arising again. It proves that the atonement ain't just about us attaining a really cool new body and living happily ever after. His atonement was far bigger than us, with far reaching implications. You are of course more than free to imitate his holiness, as believers are commanded to do, just don't let that get to your head that you are somehow above reproach, as holiness is attributed exclusively to God alone.

(Ephesians 5:1-7) "Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; {2} And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. {3} But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; {4} Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. {5} For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. {6} Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. {7} Be not ye therefore partakers with them."

(Exodus 15:11) "Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?"

Since you are claiming to be majestic in holiness like God, or claiming that its attainable, it stands to reason then that you wouldn't be merely "following" him as the standard for holiness, but much more, you are literally claiming to be holy like him, above reproach, above being tempted. If this were really the case, Paul wouldn't have to talk at length to the believer stressing the importance of the uprightness of their behavior. The only thing that ever will be above reproach is God, now and forever, otherwise God was a liar when he says:

(Isaiah 43:10-11) "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. {11} I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

 

[DNB]

One problem I see with many who relate themselves to the struggle with sin of Romans 7 is there is a chapter break before they see that Romans 8:2 is freedom from the struggle with sin. They even believe chapter 7 is Paul's constant struggle with sin as an apostle! But there is no struggle when a person has been born again of the Spirit as Paul was. But there was a struggle under the law when he was still in the unborn-again flesh, without the Spirit of Christ in him. Those on the forum who relate so much to the struggle may be in the process of being saved, but haven't completely surrendered unto true repentance in order to receive the infilling Holy Spirit and be saved.

I've taken the liberty to just show a condensed rearranged version of Romans 7 and 8 without the chapter break and the confusing misinterpreted description of the life of struggle under the law. I have not changed wording, just dropped verses and rearranged verses to show the true power of Spirit. I hope this edit of Scripture will help those who have twisted this portion of Scripture to mean a Christian will always struggle with sin, even with the Holy Spirit in them, a total heresy.

CL, life itself, to anyone who is honest with themselves, teaches us that the struggle against sin is real, and that even the most devout Christians are losing the battle against it. Paul's battle in regard to sin in Romans 7, was not due to his former adherence to the Law, but rather to the inherent conflict that every human has between his ideals, and his actions. Men who desire to do good, and know the difference between what is wrong and right, for various reasons, often chose the wrong. Paul was not saying that he has risen above this temptation and shortcoming, but rather the opposite, that he was incapacitated to do so. And, he was thanking God for His grace through Christ, which justifies by intent, not by action.

Paul, was in a constant struggle against sin, as every man under the sun is, whether he be a devout and faithful Christian, or not. Thus grace becomes even more gracious under such a demise. This was Paul's entire point.
CL, I've never met you, but I will bet a large sum of many that you are as sinful as anyone else on this site. And, just the fact that you think that you are not, I would say that you're probably worse than a lot of us. I'm extremely serious about that comment. Anyone without a proper reverence for God, would never, ever, make such a self-righteous boast. We are all so desensitized and voluntarily disparate from God, that we cannot even remotely, appreciate how depraved that we are. And I don't even believe in a fallen nature, or the doctrine of Total Depravity.

 

[Joseph77]

and that even the most devout Christians are losing the battle against it.

See in the New Testament who overcame that , who has the victory, who is NOT losing the battle against it.

One key to truth is we must keep seeking the truth, and not give up , ever.
Also, the Father Himself must reveal truth to us, or we do not know it.

Most people do lose. Most people are sons of disobedience. Yes, that is written, so it is truth.

But in Scripture, if the Father is Willing, and from the Father, a few learn the truth, and are set free.

Overcoming "by the word of our testimony and the blood of the Lamb" . Simple, True, As Written, in Perfect Harmony with all Scripture and all of God's Plan and all of God's Purpose.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Well after searching through scripture, I just don't see sinless perfection being explicitly taught as something that can be attained in this life. When speaking of the righteousness of God, the only time Paul explicitly says that such a state can be achieved in any way is at the resurrection, not before it.



And again, obviously this still ain't gonna be good enough for God since he still feels a need to make a new heaven and a new earth, "wherein dwelleth righteousness", meaning without the possibility of sin and the very knowledge of it ever arising again. It proves that the atonement ain't just about us attaining a really cool new body and living happily ever after. His atonement was far bigger than us, with far reaching implications. You are of course more than free to imitate his holiness, as believers are commanded to do, just don't let that get to your head that you are somehow above reproach, as holiness is attributed exclusively to God alone.





Since you are claiming to be majestic in holiness like God, or claiming that its attainable, it stands to reason then that you wouldn't be merely "following" him as the standard for holiness, but much more, you are literally claiming to be holy like him, above reproach, above being tempted. If this were really the case, Paul wouldn't have to talk at length to the believer stressing the importance of the uprightness of their behavior. The only thing that ever will be above reproach is God, now and forever, otherwise God was a liar when he says:

So you believe it is impossible to not sin? Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

 

[CharismaticLady]

CL, life itself, to anyone who is honest with themselves, teaches us that the struggle against sin is real, and that even the most devout Christians are losing the battle against it. Paul's battle in regard to sin in Romans 7, was not due to his former adherence to the Law, but rather to the inherent conflict that every human has between his ideals, and his actions. Men who desire to do good, and know the difference between what is wrong and right, for various reasons, often chose the wrong. Paul was not saying that he has risen above this temptation and shortcoming, but rather the opposite, that he was incapacitated to do so. And, he was thanking God for His grace through Christ, which justifies by intent, not by action.

You better read Romans 8:2 again. He said that being in the Spirit he is free from sin.

 

[Dcopymope]

So you believe it is impossible to not sin? Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

I believe what the Bible tells me, which is not what you claim it to be.