entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Eternally Grateful]

It is an interesting subject, but before going headlong into it, let me just share my immediate thoughts. I think you're wrong that "sinless perfection" is not part of the idea of a "complete sanctification." All evangelicals believe in "victory over sin." This is not the same thing as having a flawed human nature coexisting with our demonstrations of righteousness. Either the sin nature is excised from within us when we do righteousness, or we do righteousness while the "sin tendency" continues to exist within us.

I personally practice righteousness even as I notice wrong thoughts rise up within me, which to me is evidence of the sin nature. We are temporarily cleansed of this until the redemption of our bodies in the resurrection. The blood of Christ has to regularly be applied not because it wasn't good for all time, but rather, because we sin over and over again, being that the sin nature exists within us, and we have to over and over again confess our sins and be cleansed.

So which among these options do you personally believe, that we can exterminate the sin nature while it is in us in order to do righteousness? Or is it that in the midst of our inherent sin we do righteousness? This for me is the real deal, because if we can completely exterminate sin in our lives, simply by force of will, or by faith, then in theory we *never* have to sin. But in reality, I believe we do have to sin in the sense that we are inherently sinful, and do commit sins. It's just that we need to subdue it, and regularly get victory over it, and avoid the worst sins.

If victory over sin is what these Sanctification people teach, I should think we all teach that. But it's the idea of *exterminating sin*--even temporarily, that is the error, in my judgment. We become mature, and in that sense "perfect," but we do not become sinless--not even for a moment. We have the sin nature, and therefore we *will* sin, if only in smaller ways. I certainly wouldn't justify committing big sins just because "we are sinful."

I think Sanctification Teaching came about because many people, like me personally, grew up in church, and knew God, but knew nothing of the "power of God." When that power is activated in our lives, we can distinguish between "good works" and "Christ's righteousness."

The latter is more "perfect" than the former, since the former seems to lack the ability to understand the correlation between God's "voice" and our obedience. Otherwise, we are just following seemingly good principles, which actually may or may not be inspired.

When we actually "hear" God's voice, we are following actual revelation, and we feel truly Sanctified. And I think this is true. In either case, the Christian has the sin nature and never becomes perfect until the resurrection. The idea is to have better conformity to God's word, as well as a more intimate relationship with the Lord.

The idea of having the ability to 100% avoid sin throughout our lives, despite the existence of the sin nature, seems to be what you're advocating? My argument against this is that just *having the sin nature* means we must, in some sense, sin.

And that's what John is saying in 1 John, that we *must* sin to some degree, but that even as we capitulate to some degree we can subdue it and mitigate it. The end result will be that our sin nature will not be able to hinder our relationship with God and our ability to produce righteousness.

I think a real issue that many have is the definition of sin. What causes sin, and what constitutes sin. People fail to realize that even though Jews practiced the law and obeyed commands, they were seen as sinners. So just because we obey a set of laws. or commands, or do morally good things, does not mean we are not practicing or living in sin, or that we are free from sin.

The mature people who have grown in Christ start to understand more clearly what sin is, and why it is so destructive and find victory when they stop trying to follow rules. and start to just become God and others focused. and chose to serve others in any way they can.. They learn that loving others or putting their needs above our own is what righteous living is.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Randy, basing beliefs on personal experiences is a dangerous means of arriving at Biblical truth. If I fail spiritually, it has not the least bearing on what God says that He will do or is willing to do. Many people believe that God's Law is unreasonable, and God is a God of Love; in their "experience" they "feel accepted" and believe that they are on their way to eternal bliss when they die. "I've tried really hard, but it is impossible for me to obey God..." is poor basis in which to press Scripture into supporting what we experience.

When we get "saved" the devil does not die. We will get tested, and be tempted; but just like the temptation of Jesus in the Wilderness, temptation is not sin or sinfulness. If we are being tested, it is to see our response. I have heard many Christians blame themselves and believe that there is something spiritually wrong with them when they are tempted and tested. The true test as to whether this test shows something to be spiritually wrong, is if we fail. Yes, it is that experience that reveals or faith or unbelief, and cause us to evaluate our standing with God.

We all base much of what we know of God on our personal experience with Him. Experience is only valid up to a point. God says that He is able to keep the Believer from falling; is He able? Can He? Will He give us a way of escape when we are tempted? If the Bible promises victory and we fail; this is an abnormal Christian experience. If we say that "everyone I know does not experience victory" and that proves something.... it does not prove that that is "normal Christianity." It does prove that they should evaluate whether they are truly Christian.

The Bible says what Christian experience is; if our lives do not reflect it, we should "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-unless, of course, you fail the test? 2 Cor. 13:5.

The problem comes when you take the spirit of adoption and turn it into a spirit of fear like lawyers do..

God loves us (his children) unconditionally. It is this love that causes us to grow in him. Not his fear

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy, basing beliefs on personal experiences is a dangerous means of arriving at Biblical truth. If I fail spiritually, it has not the least bearing on what God says that He will do or is willing to do. Many people believe that God's Law is unreasonable, and God is a God of Love; in their "experience" they "feel accepted" and believe that they are on their way to eternal bliss when they die. "I've tried really hard, but it is impossible for me to obey God..." is poor basis in which to press Scripture into supporting what we experience.

When we get "saved" the devil does not die. We will get tested, and be tempted; but just like the temptation of Jesus in the Wilderness, temptation is not sin or sinfulness. If we are being tested, it is to see our response. I have heard many Christians blame themselves and believe that there is something spiritually wrong with them when they are tempted and tested. The true test as to whether this test shows something to be spiritually wrong, is if we fail. Yes, it is that experience that reveals or faith or unbelief, and cause us to evaluate our standing with God.

We all base much of what we know of God on our personal experience with Him. Experience is only valid up to a point. God says that He is able to keep the Believer from falling; is He able? Can He? Will He give us a way of escape when we are tempted? If the Bible promises victory and we fail; this is an abnormal Christian experience. If we say that "everyone I know does not experience victory" and that proves something.... it does not prove that that is "normal Christianity." It does prove that they should evaluate whether they are truly Christian.

The Bible says what Christian experience is; if our lives do not reflect it, we should "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-unless, of course, you fail the test? 2 Cor. 13:5.

No, I don't think this process of temptation and resisting the sin nature is a "Salvation" issue. Rather, it is an issue we all, as Christians, must face every day, if we're honest.

When I'm personally faced with temptation, it reveals the sin nature within me, whether or not I capitulate to the temptation. It is our duty to *resist* the temptation, but the fact it grips me tells me I'm weak and vulnerable. It tells me that sin is there within me to be tempted.

I of course agree with you that Christianity is all about resisting temptation and choosing Christ as the alternative to living in the "old man." We must get beyond living natural lives and choose to live in our new supernatural lives.

We were born again in order to put us into a new category of human, where we live in constant relationship with Christ and participate in his righteousness, as well as in his power over sin. It does not mean, however, that we are sinless, or that we don't have a sin nature.

When temptation strikes you, you will indeed feel weak and vulnerable. It is dangerous, I think, to deny this. Personal experience can indeed be dangerous, if it is not properly informed by our new spiritual nature, by Christ himself, and by the verbalized word of God in our lives. The experience of the "natural man" would deny the experience of Christ, because the natural man, by nature, is spiritually blind.

So I'm talking about a different kind of experience which is integral to our Christian life. Unless we *experience,* personally, the new life of the Spirit, and are informed by it, we will not choose righteousness, in contrast with the carnal life of this world.

 

[Episkopos]

I think a real issue that many have is the definition of sin. What causes sin, and what constitutes sin. People fail to realize that even though Jews practiced the law and obeyed commands, they were seen as sinners. So just because we obey a set of laws. or commands, or do morally good things, does not mean we are not practicing or living in sin, or that we are free from sin.

The Jews have an understanding of righteousness and holiness that is far beyond what most Christians can perceive. Of course it shouldn't be that way. But then the church needed to shift it's emphasis away from Christ-likeness as a goal since many other religions are superior to Christendom (because we are spoiled and rich) in the area of hospitality, humility, forgiveness....and many other attributes associated with the meek.

So the church changed the format from righteousness and holiness to being saved or not. And this confused the issue to give the church a continuing dominance over any kind of actual Christian character that was embarrassing to rich people for the lack of it.

So then we have invented a middle-class religion based on a God who serves us.

Now the Jews held to a standard of obedience that was possible for men to attain to. As such these were seen as righteous. The holiness standard was met by the religious traditions in temple worship with dress and eating codes.

But the Christian standard according to the bible is perfection IN Christ. This is far above the Jewish standard and WAY beyond anything a rich culture such as our own can perceive or imagine.

And that's why so many people who claim to love Jesus hate His laws and standards.

Being in Christ is not concerned with a human morality. It is to walk in the holy presence of God WHERE He is...where no sin can enter.

So then the very incredulity of a people who cannot receive the truth in the Lord shows very clearly that they have been subverted from the truth.

In Him is NO sin. But people have a very hard time avowing anything holy. Their experience compels them to believe that God is satisfied with far less. And that's because we have set the standard so low...that we never actually encounter God. So for us God remains a mystery...His power remains a mystery...and His grace...well...is taken as turning a blind eye to the reality we have put ourselves in.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Jews have an understanding of righteousness and holiness that is far beyond what most Christians can perceive. Of course it shouldn't be that way. But then the church needed to shift it's emphasis away from Christ-likeness as a goal since many other religions are superior to Christendom (because we are spoiled and rich) in the area of hospitality, humility, forgiveness....and many other attributes associated with the meek.

So the church changed the format from righteousness and holiness to being saved or not. And this confused the issue to give the church a continuing dominance over any kind of actual Christian character that was embarrassing to rich people for the lack of it.

So then we have invented a middle-class religion based on a God who serves us.

Now the Jews held to a standard of obedience that was possible for men to attain to. As such these were seen as righteous. The holiness standard was met by the religious traditions in temple worship and dress and eating codes.

But the Christian standard is perfection IN Christ. This is far above the Jewish standard and WAY beyond anything a rich culture can perceive.

And that's why so many people who claim to love Jesus hate His laws and standards.

Being in Christ is not concerned with a human morality. It is to walk in the holy presence of God WHERE He is...where no sin can enter.

So then the very incredulity of a people who cannot receive the truth in the Lord shows very clearly that they have been subverted from the truth.

In Him is NO sin. But people have a very hard time avowing anything holy. Their experience compels them to believe that God is satisfied with far less. And that's because we have set the standard so low...that we never actually encounter God. So for us God remains a mystery...His power remains a mystery...and His grace...well...is taken as turning a blind eye to the reality we have put ourselves in.

We have Gods standard - perfection

And mans standard - (whatever they think they can obtain is where they usually set the bar)

Salvation must come first

if one is not saved, adopted into Gods family, Justified, then no amount of righteous living will help them They are required to live up to Gods standard. Which no one has met. (for all have sinned and fall short)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, I don't think this process of temptation and resisting the sin nature is a "Salvation" issue. Rather, it is an issue we all, as Christians, must face every day, if we're honest.

When I'm personally faced with temptation, it reveals the sin nature within me, whether or not I capitulate to the temptation. It is our duty to *resist* the temptation, but the fact it grips me tells me I'm weak and vulnerable. It tells me that sin is there within me to be tempted.

I of course agree with you that Christianity is all about resisting temptation and choosing Christ as the alternative to living in the "old man." We must get beyond living natural lives and choose to live in our new supernatural lives.

We were born again in order to put us into a new category of human, where we live in constant relationship with Christ and participate in his righteousness, as well as in his power over sin. It does not mean, however, that we are sinless, or that we don't have a sin nature.

When temptation strikes you, you will indeed feel weak and vulnerable. It is dangerous, I think, to deny this. Personal experience can indeed be dangerous, if it is not properly informed by our new spiritual nature, by Christ himself, and by the verbalized word of God in our lives. The experience of the "natural man" would deny the experience of Christ, because the natural man, by nature, is spiritually blind.

So I'm talking about a different kind of experience which is integral to our Christian life. Unless we *experience,* personally, the new life of the Spirit, and are informed by it, we will not choose righteousness, in contrast with the carnal life of this world.

New nature/old nature

Our new nature is allergic to sin, Our old nature wants to continue in sin (serving self)

Our response to sin has changed, thats why it is impossible for a person who is born of God and made new to live in sin (1 John 3)

 

[Episkopos]

We have Gods standard - perfection

And mans standard - (whatever they think they can obtain is where they usually set the bar)

Salvation must come first

if one is not saved, adopted into Gods family, Justified, then no amount of righteous living will help them They are required to live up to Gods standard. Which no one has met. (for all have sinned and fall short)

You have a skewed view of salvation. Final salvation is after we die and will be judged. Then all the weeping and anger won't change the verdict. All the naming and claiming will fail.

A salvation in this life is a continuance of life.

But the kind of salvation you are referring to is admittance into the race of faith. So we are saved away from the world...but to what? Salvation for salvation sake? That's what people believe...but it isn't so. We are saved from in order to get into the race of faith in order to begin the process of being saved TO God's kingdom.

And that costs us everything we have and are.

But people are not looking to engage in entering the promised land. They aren't interested in obedience to God and His will. No, they want a free gift of an easy salvation and a glory for nothing.

Are you like that too?

 

[Candidus]

The problem comes when you take the spirit of adoption and turn it into a spirit of fear like lawyers do..

God loves us (his children) unconditionally. It is this love that causes us to grow in him. Not his fear

Unconditional love of God is a cliché, a bumper-sticker theology. It sounds as good as saying "God is my Co-Pilot."

The Bible does not say that. Jude 21 tells us to "Keep yourselves in the love of God..." John writes... "Do not love the world, nor the things of the world. If anyone love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." (1 Jn. 2:15). “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love..." (John 15:10.) “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and My Father will love him..." (John 14:23.) “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: And he that loveth me shall be loved of My Father..." (John 14:21.)

Jesus and John proclaim that God's love is conditional. Who does God love according to Scripture? “The LORD loveth the righteous.” (Psalms 146:8). “He loveth him that followeth after righteousness.” (Proverbs 15:9). “I love them that love Me.” (Proverbs 8:17).

There is a specific love of God for the believer which is conditional, and a general unconditional love of mankind, and desire to save them.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have a skewed view of salvation. Final salvation is after we die and will be judged. Then all the weeping and anger won't change the verdict. All the naming and claiming will fail.

A salvation in this life is a continuance of life.

But the kind of salvation you are referring to is admittance into the race of faith. So we are saved away from the world...but to what? Salvation for salvation sake? That's what people believe...but it isn't so. We are saved from in order to get into the race of faith in order to begin the process of being saved TO God's kingdom.

And that costs us everything we have and are.

But people are not looking to engage in entering the promised land. They aren't interested in obedience to God and His will. No, they want a free gift of an easy salvation and a glory for nothing.

Are you like that too?

You have a skewed view of salvation.

I am saved from the penalty of sin, The law can not touch me anymore

You appear to be trying to save yourself because you do not think salvation has yet been given. it is dependent on you

Well good luck with this.

 

[Candidus]

No, I don't think this process of temptation and resisting the sin nature is a "Salvation" issue. Rather, it is an issue we all, as Christians, must face every day, if we're honest.

If Christians were honest, they would believe that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn. 3:9. "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen of knows Him" (3:6). "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Heb. 12:14).

The wages of sin is still death. God saves no one "in" their sins, but "from" their sins.

 

[bbyrd009]

I am saved from the penalty of sin, The law can not touch me anymore

wait even if you sin, you incur no penalty? Let me consult with my judge friend, see if our laws changed last night maybe, dunno.

 

[marks]

We can indeed be perfected (Hebrews 10:14) so that we "cannot sin" (1 John 3:9) in that the element of sin can be rendered dead within us. This is not to say that it is eradicated from us, so that we can say that we "have no" sin.

Hi justbyfaith,

Question on this part . . . you are saying that we "can indeed be perfected so that we cannot sin", referencing 1 Johh 3:9, whosoever is born of God doeth no sin . . . he cannot sin. This seems to me to be speaking of something true of the one born of God, but you are saying we are becoming that?

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Unconditional love of God is a cliché, a bumper-sticker theology. It sounds as good as saying "God is my Co-Pilot."

The Bible does not say that. Jude 21 tells us to "Keep yourselves in the love of God..." John writes... "Do not love the world, nor the things of the world. If anyone love the world, the love of the Father is not in him." (1 Jn. 2:15). “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love..." (John 15:10.) “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and My Father will love him..." (John 14:23.) “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: And he that loveth me shall be loved of My Father..." (John 14:21.)

Jesus and John proclaim that God's love is conditional. Who does God love according to Scripture? “The LORD loveth the righteous.” (Psalms 146:8). “He loveth him that followeth after righteousness.” (Proverbs 15:9). “I love them that love Me.” (Proverbs 8:17).

There is a specific love of God for the believer which is conditional, and a general unconditional love of mankind, and desire to save them.

Well. I have experienced Gods unconditional love, and it has empowered me to walk in his ways, and walk in his commands, And I have experienced others who have experienced this same victory in christ

i will pray that maybe one day you will experience this love and empowerment as we have

 

[Candidus]

Well. I have experienced Gods unconditional love, and it has empowered me to walk in his ways, and walk in his commands, And I have experienced others who have experienced this same victory in christ

i will pray that maybe one day you will experience this love and empowerment as we have

Another person trumping the Bible with "experience!" If such love exists, and the Bible is wrong when it states conditional love, I can then trust that God's love is unconditional, and no one will end up in Hell? Salvation is conditional from its beginning to its end; one must repent and believe the Gospel to be saved. We are saved by grace through faith, not by what I see you teaching, which is salvation by payment through fate.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

wait even if you sin, you incur no penalty? Let me consult with my judge friend, see if our laws changed last night maybe, dunno.

If A penalty is still incurred.

I am under law no longer under grace

 

[Episkopos]

If A penalty is still incurred.

I am under law no longer under grace

For you in your conceit the wages of sin...is salvation. How can you not be fully deceived? The truth doesn't magically change because it is trying to be fitted into a self-serving culture.

 

[Candidus]

If A penalty is still incurred.

I am under law no longer under grace

Antinomianism, plain and simple!

God damns you to an eternal hell for the sin you committed yesterday; but now that you are saved today, you can sin with impunity! Let's call it "Grace"!
Basically, you are claiming that God does not save anyone "from" sin, but saves people "in" their sins. The acts of conversion, regeneration and the New-Birth do not change you. The reality is, you do not believe that God capable of saving the Believer by changing them from a sinner into a Saint, but that by the death of Christ, God converts, regenerates, and sanctifies the Believers sin so it no longer damns. God winks at the sins of the Christian. God does not actually work anything significant in the Believer, He saves them by converting and saving their sin!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Another person trumping the Bible with "experience!" If such love exists, and the Bible is wrong when it states conditional love, I can then trust that God's love is unconditional, and no one will end up in Hell? Salvation is conditional from its beginning to its end; one must repent and believe the Gospel to be saved. We are saved by grace through faith, not by what I see you teaching, which is salvation by payment through fate.

The bible is not wrong

and experience does prove

The fact you have not experienced it should show you something is wrong

 

[Episkopos]

The bible is not wrong

and experience does prove

The fact you have not experienced it should show you something is wrong

But what is that experience that negates the bible? Explain where you get the feeling that sins are no longer an issue. Where do you get the wages of sin being other than death...a separation from God?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

For you in your conceit the wages of sin...is salvation. How can you not be fully deceived? The truth doesn't magically change because it is trying to be fitted into a self-serving culture.

How can you not be totally deceived in thinking your under grace when you put yourself under law

If your under law. Your doomed, Because your required to meet the conditions as found in the law. You already failed in that aspect. And you will continue to fail in that aspect.