entire sanctification is an obtainable goal.

[Eternally Grateful]

But what is that experience that negates the bible?

well if it does. then the bible comes first

Lucky for me, My experience goes right with the bible. in fact. My experience is shared by many of the biblical characters who havwe wrte their stories or had their story written by others.

Explain where you get the feeling that sins are no longer an issue. Where do you get the wages of sin being other than death...a separation from God?

I never said such a thing, and once again, I am warning you to stop making such accusations which are not true. If you continue, I will have to stop being so nice and just warn you

 

[Randy Kluth]

If Christians were honest, they would believe that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn. 3:9. "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen of knows Him" (3:6). "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Heb. 12:14).

The wages of sin is still death. God saves no one "in" their sins, but "from" their sins.

I wrestled with that verse when I was a teenager, and I'm retired now. It is a generalized concept, indicating that Christians do not, as a practice, live a sinful life. It bears no resemblance to "sinless perfection," since John had already put that one to rest in ch. 1.

 

[Randy Kluth]

New nature/old nature

Our new nature is allergic to sin, Our old nature wants to continue in sin (serving self)

Our response to sin has changed, thats why it is impossible for a person who is born of God and made new to live in sin (1 John 3)

Exactly, if we focus on the new nature we've been given, everything we want will be directed to please God and to live in Christ. If we lose that focus we are endangering that life, because sin is still in our nature. We can capitulate to it, even though we are born again.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly, if we focus on the new nature we've been given, everything we want will be directed to please God and to live in Christ. If we lose that focus we are endangering that life, because sin is still in our nature. We can capitulate to it, even though we are born again.

Yes,Like paul in romans 7, Because when we forget our new nature we forget God has taken care of ALL our needs, and are required to take care of our own needs, Which leads to sin.

 

[Candidus]

I wrestled with that verse when I was a teenager, and I'm retired now. It is a generalized concept, indicating that Christians do not, as a practice, live a sinful life. It bears no resemblance to "sinless perfection," since John had already put that one to rest in ch. 1.

That is a rationalization. It literally says, ""Whosoever is born of God doth not [present tense] commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn. 3:9. The verse prior has the present tense for "commits" sin. This is contrasted with "doing righteousness" as He (God) is righteous in verse 7, and "whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" in verse 10.

John never says anything about the fictional "Sinless Perfection" in chapter 1, nor is softening everything John says plainly about sin actual exposition of the passage.

 

[Candidus]

Yes,Like paul in romans 7, Because when we forget our new nature we forget God has taken care of ALL our needs, and are required to take care of our own needs, Which leads to sin.

Keep in mind, the man in Romans 7 moved onto Chapter 8. Those that appeal to this for "Christian" sinning need to do the same.

 

[bbyrd009]

If A penalty is still incurred.

I am under law no longer under grace

ah, so Jesus is your get-out-of-jail-free card? No offense but i would be considering what these guys are saying

and since we're on the subject i'd like to ask you, if your car got stolen, or your daughter got raped, or your house broken into maybe, would you call the police?

 

[bbyrd009]

If A penalty is still incurred.

I am under law no longer under grace

however imo after consideration, i do believe that all sins will be forgiven, except the sin of blasphemy/HS which who even knows what that is right, our best test is "if youre worried about that you prolly dint do it," but nonetheless imo that shouldnt become a license for lack of self-examination, basic awareness and empathy for others?

so imo the proof remains in the pudding, so to speak. As one does, so are they, a man is known by his deeds i guess

 

[marks]

My argument against this is that just *having the sin nature* means we must, in some sense, sin.

Hi Randy,

I think your post is excellently stated, and I want to come back to a few other things, but on this one part above, I'd rather say that as we have access into the grace in which we stand through faith, by trusting in Jesus, and that faith can be increased, and that God sometimes gives faith,

I think that God can, and I think does, give gifts of faith that allow us to walk without any known sin. Not that I say without sin, only that we can have no consciousness of sin.

This has a lot to do with how I see the "corruption of the flesh". And I see some interesting similarity in what you've described.

Talking with my wife, with the "mind of the flesh" supplying it's deviant dialog. But at the same time rejecting that and speaking from the spirit. Or in another example, I suffer from chemical depression, sometimes pretty badly. The interesting thing is, as I am walking in the Spirit, while in the flesh I suffer from depression, in the spirit I don't.

So the undercurrent of the flesh is all the emotions of the depression, and all the physical symptoms, with varying degrees of debilitation. But at the same time, in my mind, I am so happy that I'm alive in Christ, and not that mess any longer! I watch him, I see him, I know he's there, but I'm not him, I'm free of him!

So long as my eyes don't get drawn off of Jesus onto the waves.

You said that if we are able to overcome sin entirely by faith, then in theory we never have to sin. Personally I believe this to be true, that we never do have to sin. But we don't manufacture faith. God has given to each a measure of faith, and gives gifts of faith.

One the one hand we are waiting for Him to increase our faith, Jesus, the Auther and Finisher of our faith. But on the other hand, we work out what His is working into us, and are we fully? Work out your salvation with fear and trembling . . . how far short do I maybe fall from what God has already given me?

In living with depression I've been able to see how the corruption of my body has affected my mood, my wants, my needs, all sorts of things. It's a biological issue. But with a profound influence on my thinking and behavior. The corruption of the body, the parts, I think this is just more of the corruption of the flesh.

We inherit the sin nature somehow, I think we receive it in our bodies, that physical humanity is damaged by Adam's choice to sin, to seek to know good and evil, now that's what we do, we seek to know good and evil, and are bent to evil.

When we seek life in Christ we are living from our new source, the other tree, if you will.

If the reason we sin is because our bodies are damaged, both by nature and nurture, as it were, well, we will be in these bodies until they die, and we receive the redemption of our bodies. Our spirits are restored now, bodies will be restored then.

OK, gotta run!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Randy, basing beliefs on personal experiences is a dangerous means of arriving at Biblical truth.

However, when personal experiences match Biblical truth, there is power.

 

[CharismaticLady]

However, when personal experiences match Biblical truth, there is power.

Where people fail is when someone is going to church and not experiencing any power, they believe there is no power to be had. Then they base the reliability of the Bible on their own experience. You are right.

 

[CharismaticLady]

What does entire sanctification mean to you?

We find it in 2 Peter 1.

But, again, we are sanctified when we are justified. What I see you actually meaning semantically is when are we completely glorified - become like Christ, our model.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Paul Christensen]

We find it in 2 Peter 1.

But, again, we are sanctified when we are justified. What I see you actually meaning semantically is when are we completely glorified - become like Christ, our model.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Sanctification is "right now" and "not yet".

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Sanctification is "right now" and "not yet".

You're confusing sanctification and glorification.

 

[Candidus]

However, when personal experiences match Biblical truth, there is power.

Basing it on failure is a losing proposition.

It's best to start with Scripture to test what we experience, instead of using our experience to interpret Scripture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

I think your post is excellently stated, and I want to come back to a few other things, but on this one part above, I'd rather say that as we have access into the grace in which we stand through faith, by trusting in Jesus, and that faith can be increased, and that God sometimes gives faith,

I think that God can, and I think does, give gifts of faith that allow us to walk without any known sin. Not that I say without sin, only that we can have no consciousness of sin.

This has a lot to do with how I see the "corruption of the flesh". And I see some interesting similarity in what you've described.

Talking with my wife, with the "mind of the flesh" supplying it's deviant dialog. But at the same time rejecting that and speaking from the spirit. Or in another example, I suffer from chemical depression, sometimes pretty badly. The interesting thing is, as I am walking in the Spirit, while in the flesh I suffer from depression, in the spirit I don't.

So the undercurrent of the flesh is all the emotions of the depression, and all the physical symptoms, with varying degrees of debilitation. But at the same time, in my mind, I am so happy that I'm alive in Christ, and not that mess any longer! I watch him, I see him, I know he's there, but I'm not him, I'm free of him!

So long as my eyes don't get drawn off of Jesus onto the waves.

You said that if we are able to overcome sin entirely by faith, then in theory we never have to sin. Personally I believe this to be true, that we never do have to sin. But we don't manufacture faith. God has given to each a measure of faith, and gives gifts of faith.

One the one hand we are waiting for Him to increase our faith, Jesus, the Auther and Finisher of our faith. But on the other hand, we work out what His is working into us, and are we fully? Work out your salvation with fear and trembling . . . how far short do I maybe fall from what God has already given me?

In living with depression I've been able to see how the corruption of my body has affected my mood, my wants, my needs, all sorts of things. It's a biological issue. But with a profound influence on my thinking and behavior. The corruption of the body, the parts, I think this is just more of the corruption of the flesh.

We inherit the sin nature somehow, I think we receive it in our bodies, that physical humanity is damaged by Adam's choice to sin, to seek to know good and evil, now that's what we do, we seek to know good and evil, and are bent to evil.

When we seek life in Christ we are living from our new source, the other tree, if you will.

If the reason we sin is because our bodies are damaged, both by nature and nurture, as it were, well, we will be in these bodies until they die, and we receive the redemption of our bodies. Our spirits are restored now, bodies will be restored then.

OK, gotta run!

Much love!

Really good spirit in this post so the fact we may disagree shouldn't be an issue. I just have to tell it from my pov. Sin is a *spiritual inheritance* that originated with Adam, and it is passed on not just physically, but also spiritually. Otherwise, if we lost a limb we would lose a % of our sin!

I can see how you feel that physical impacts of sin affect your tendency to sin. Depression can make you moody and feel very unspiritual. And I absolutely *love* the way you see yourself in the 3rd person, almost as if you stand outside of yourself, liberated from the carnal man! Great perspective!

So we shouldn't get under condemnation because God has subjected us all to this spiritual and physical inheritance from Adam. We not only have his fallen spiritual nature to contend with, but we also have physical defects inherited from our ancestors! God knows that duress drives us to act more out of sorts than we might normally. So He understands and has great compassion. Not only so, but I believe He derives great glory from those of us who stand up under these difficult circumstances, proclaiming our determination to continue in obedience.

I don't believe we can avoid all sin, but we can certainly avoid the big sins. Sinful attitudes leak out so easily, even in the best of times. When we are doing well, pride seeps in. When we are in the dumps, we snap at people. We shouldn't cover this over, or try to rationalize it away as being a victim of circumstances. Those who confess are cleansed--not those who rationalize!

Nobody can avoid sin because they have a sin nature, and it always leaks out. It's just that we can overlay it with righteousness continually because we've been given the free gift of God's Spirit. We just have to exercise it at all times, combating depression with endurance, exercising patience until we get over the hump.

I wish you the best, brother, and pray for your endurance. Most of all, I pray your joy will increase regularly.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is a rationalization. It literally says, ""Whosoever is born of God doth not [present tense] commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 Jn. 3:9. The verse prior has the present tense for "commits" sin. This is contrasted with "doing righteousness" as He (God) is righteous in verse 7, and "whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" in verse 10.

John never says anything about the fictional "Sinless Perfection" in chapter 1, nor is softening everything John says plainly about sin actual exposition of the passage.

My translation (NIV) reads: 1 John 3:
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

Even the translators understood the meaning of this verse, that it did *not* refer to sinless living. And so they translated it "won't *continue to sin*". It has to do with general practice, and not perfect conformity with divine righteousness.

That we can participate in the divine nature is beyond question. We can indeed access His righteousness and love. That is the basis of our salvation, that we can demonstrate our choice to defer to Him in everything, instead of trust in our own righteousness. In choosing Christ we in fact qualify for a new spiritual nature that is drawn to that righteousness regularly.

 

[Randy Kluth]

However, when personal experiences match Biblical truth, there is power.

Yes, I've been a follower of the teaching of Watchman Nee in times past, and I love to cite his teaching at times. This is one of those times.

Nee said that he did not place confidence in Bible Teaching that was more theory than personally experienced. He indicated that when he experienced Christ in the teaching, then he knew he could communicate that truth effectively to others. It is Christ who we communicate, and not just empty logical teaching.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sanctification is "right now" and "not yet".

Huh??? LOL

Sanctification was long ago. Glorification is right now and forever.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

however imo after consideration, i do believe that all sins will be forgiven, except the sin of blasphemy/HS which who even knows what that is right, our best test is "if youre worried about that you prolly dint do it," but nonetheless imo that shouldnt become a license for lack of self-examination, basic awareness and empathy for others?

so imo the proof remains in the pudding, so to speak. As one does, so are they, a man is known by his deeds i guess

The unforgiveable sin is unbelief

He who believes is not condemns, He who does not believe is condemned already

It is the Holy Spirits Job to show the world their sin, SHow the world who and what God is, And show the world the gospel which could save them. When you reject the HS, you basically call him a liar. or "dissent" from what the HS is leading. This is called blasphemy.

As for as a man lives that he is, I agree..