What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?

[justbyfaith]

Brother... this is the original bone of contention, right here. We are not Pharisees

Even what is written in Matthew 23 can apply to you or me if either one of us has a Pharisaical attitude.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Angelina,

In what sense does the statement of John 8:24 only apply to the Pharisees?

Why would Pharisees die in their sins for not believing that Jesus is the great I AM, while Gentiles are exempt from His statement? Is Jesus being discriminatory?

I say to you verily that He was making a blanket statement of doctrine and that it does not only apply to a specific group of people.

Even though He was talking to that specific group of people in that moment.

The epistle of Paul to the Philippians is written specifically "to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi." (Philippians 1:1).

So then, do you believe that the promise in Philippians, that He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it until the day of Jesus Christ, (Philippians 1:6), does not apply to anyone today but only applies to the saints at Philippi in Paul's day?

 

[justbyfaith]

Salvation? Salvation is the wrong focus.

I beg to differ. It is the primary focus.

 

[justbyfaith]

Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

To call upon the name of the Lord, one must know who the Lord is:

Rom 10:14, How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[charity]

Hebrews 1:8-9
"But to the Son He says:
'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness
more than Your companions.'”

Hello @oldhermit,

You have had many responses, none of which I have been able to read yet, but I hope you will not mind receiving another. You ask, 'What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?' :-

* What a magnificence statement this is, isn't it, in Hebrews 1:8-9? Reading it, I realise that it is so very much part of the context in which it comes that it should not be read in isolation. This is a quotation from Psalm 45:6-7:-

'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness:
therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee
with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows.'

* This is a magnificent declaration of the deity of Christ in the glory of His Kingdom. Which is the context of Psalm 45:2.

Praise His Holy Name!

* See also Isaiah 9:6, Jeremiah 23:6 and Jeremiah 33:16

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[amadeus]

Of course this pertains to His humanity.

For in the doctrine of the hypostatic union, the Lord Jesus is 100% Man and 100% God.

In His humanity Jesus is even less than the Father.

For in Philippians 2, He emptied Himself of many of the attributes of Deity in what is called kenosis.

In this, He did not cease to be God.

But He took on an added human nature which by definition does not have such infinite abilities as Omniscience and Omnipresence. Because a human body is finite.

Perhaps with my human mind alone could accept this with the human definitions and interpretations of words and scriptures, but I cannot, because there is more to me, thank God, than my human mind. Where you is where I guess many men seem to be, but really is it not so that many or most men simply do not know and like their already encountered or established comfort zones? What I would like to do is be where God wants me to be even if the price is the one Jesus paid. Can I do it? Alone, in my flesh, certainly not!

You say and others have said before you that in this 'hypostatic union" he is 100% in each, man and God. Have you or have others considered what Jesus then is saying in his prayer to his Father in John chapter 17?

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-24

If there really is such a hypostatic union as has been declared, making Jesus God and equal always in all ways to God the Father, then the above cited words of his prayer opens up to me the possibility for you and me and everyone else to form with Jesus the Father not a Trinity, but a Multiplicity called God. I don't believe that and it makes it impossible for me to simply accept even Trinity or Duality of God. Why must I? Can a person not have faith in God without deciding that He is this or that or some other thing not understood? It must be my own faith or the faith that God has given me rather than your faith or some other man's faith or the faith espoused by some church group!

Seeing this quandary for me, I often leave the subject alone because God has not clarified, even though I have been serving Him many years, talking to Him about it many times. I have talked to many people on forums and off of forums on this subject , but not one has explained this so that I could embrace what they apparently embrace for what is called the "Godhead". I have my ideas about it, but I cannot prove them anymore than you or anyone can prove the existence of such a hypostatic union. I simply continue to seek His kingdom and His righteousness like Jesus said to do. I won't put words in God's mouth simply to be acceptable to this group or that one.

Give God the glory!

 

[charity]

'Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Who is the image of the invisible God,
.. the firstborn of every creature:
For by Him were all things created,
.. that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
.... whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
...... all things were created by Him, and for Him:
And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
And He is the head of the body, the church:
.. Who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
.... that in all things He might have the preeminence.
...... For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell; ... '
(Colossions 1:13-19)

 

[amadeus]

I beg to differ. It is the primary focus.

[copied in part from one of my own posts written here a few months ago]

What I am saying is that we should come to the place where we love God for who He is rather than only for the gifts He is able to and even wants to provide... which include salvation and never dying. Do we love our natural parents only because they happen to be wealthy in material things they are able to give us? Did we marry our spouse for material riches?

Yes, God loves His children and will give them many gifts... including salvation and never ending Life. What do we give Him? All that we have and all that we are!

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" Rom 12:1

If we work at being a church member of a supposedly Christian group or to follow some set of rules only because of the expected gifts and not because we love Him, is not something important missing in us? We remain then as I see it selfish and Jesus was never that. Just the opposite. Are we not to be like Him?

"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." Phil 2:3

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

 

[marks]

Hebrews 1:8-9, the quote from Psalms 45:6-7, says nothing about Jesus being divine. As in Psalms, the context is about a human ruler (most probably King David) anointed by God. As with David as his son, so with Jesus, his true begotten Son. As David is not divine, the same as Christ. Both David and Jesus are subordinate to their maker and their Father, the LORD God Almighty.

This scripture as in many others, never intends to elevate Christ as divine, the same as his Father, as many desperately wishes it did to fit into their self-contrived false truth about Christ, being equal to his Father, and God himself. This scripture is meant to show that Jesus Christ is now above all men and even angels, who rules them from a special place or throne given to him by his, and our Father. Verses 8 and 9 explicitly states the roles and basic differences: that simply God is the Father of Christ, his true Son. This is a very simple thought process to understand and internalize and trust as the truth.

Reading the entire Chapter One of Hebrews clearly makes my points much more clearer, as its context. God the LORD is always spoken of as the creator of all things, the only one in charge, the only one that makes all the decisions and thus by implication, is the only deity, and never his Son, or anyone else.

Blessings,

APAK

Hi APAK,

I didn't realize that you see Jesus as a created one. So then God changes?

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @amadeus.

First, post # 148.

We cannot do anything worthy unless we are saved; and therefore the first priority is salvation. If I think that I am doing things for God but am not saved, I may think that I am being unselfish but in all reality I can only do things out of selfishness since I would in that case not have the Holy Ghost to motivate me to unselfishness.

Therefore, for the one who is not saved, priority #1 is to get saved. If I think that I am being somehow noble for being obedient to the Lord when I do not have His salvation, I am self-deceived.

As for post #146,

I encourage you to look up Ephesians 3:19, 1 Corinthians 6:17, and Ephesians 5:30-32. And that this is what is spoken of in Romans 5:11.

 

[marks]

Why would Pharisees die in their sins for not believing that Jesus is the great I AM, while Gentiles are exempt from His statement? Is Jesus being discriminatory?

I say to you verily that He was making a blanket statement of doctrine and that it does not only apply to a specific group of people.

That's my question also.

If this was valid for them, if this is a true doctrine, then why not valid for others?

?

 

[amadeus]

Hi @amadeus.

First, post # 148.

We cannot do anything worthy unless we are saved; and therefore the first priority is salvation. If I think that I am doing things for God but am not saved, I may think that I am being unselfish but in all reality I can only do things out of selfishness since I would in that case not have the Holy Ghost to motivate me to unselfishness.

Therefore, for the one who is not saved, priority #1 is to get saved. If I think that I am being somehow noble for being obedient to the Lord when I do not have His salvation, I am self-deceived.

As for post #146,

I encourage you to look up Ephesians 3:19, 1 Corinthians 6:17, and Ephesians 5:30-32. And that this is what is spoken of in Romans 5:11.

While you say a few good things here, I am at odds with your basic premise. Again as I have said many times already, only God gives increases!

 

[APAK]

Hi APAK,

I didn't realize that you see Jesus as a created one. So then God changes?

Much love!

If you really want to understand as to what I believe in and why, then ask me directly without making a confusing and devious response, as you did.

 

[DNB]

Indeed and see Moses and his brother, Aaron:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." Ex 7:1

Or see Pharaoh words to Joseph, which could also be like unto the Father's words to Jesus:

"Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou." Gen 41:40

Excellent typology!

 

[marks]

If you really want to understand as to what I believe in and why, then ask me directly without making a confusing and devious response, as you did.

Sorry! You're quite right! Shame on me! I call others on it, and I do it! So I am the hypocrit! So it goes. I'm sorry!

Let me ask you . . .

God was alone in the beginning? And then created Jesus? Is that right?

Much love!

 

[Angelina]

Yes, I am.

If Jesus' words do not apply to Gentiles, then they are not profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, or for instruction in righteousness; unless you are specifically talking to a Pharisaical Jew.

I don't believe that (see 2 Timothy 3:16).

You can reject the truth if you want; you have every right to do so in this country.

I'm not certain that it will bode well with you on your day of judgment.

In saying that the Deity of Christ is not an essential doctrine, you are giving leeway to people who do not want to believe in that doctrine. Whereas if they understand that it is an essential, they may be motivated to seek out an understanding of it in the word; and not to reject it. But if they do not see it as an essential, they may consider that it's not important; and will die in their sins because they did not believe in it nor seek to be able to do so.

Thus you will be responsible for their damnation.
What will you say to the Lord on your day of judgment when this is brought to bear on your life?
Where in the passage that includes John 8:24 does the scripture exclude Gentiles concerning the application of what the Lord said?

Again, you are referring to John 8 but your point is not consistent with this verse. Jesus, who came to the lost sheep of Israel, had a crowd of gatherers with him who were Jewish. Some of them were believing Jews, others not. Amongst them were the Scribes and the Pharisees. From verse 13-30 Jesus is specifically speaking to the Pharisees and the Jews. Verse 23 you are quoting, is spoken to the non-believing Jews and Pharisees.

They were given this warning from Jesus but it has absolutely nothing to do with the point you are making which is without accepting Christ's deity, you will not be saved. The Gentiles were not there in this verse. The Jews did not even talk the the gentiles until Jesus actually spoke to the woman at the well. That is something you have added to the salvation message that is not there. It also shows your knowledge of our Lord and Savior or lack thereof.

Please....don't think that God does not know your heart toward those who do not agree with you due to your lack of biblical exposition . He does know you very well.

 

[Angelina]

Yes, I am.

If Jesus' words do not apply to Gentiles, then they are not profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, or for instruction in righteousness; unless you are specifically talking to a Pharisaical Jew.

I don't believe that (see 2 Timothy 3:16).

You can reject the truth if you want; you have every right to do so in this country.

I'm not certain that it will bode well with you on your day of judgment.

In saying that the Deity of Christ is not an essential doctrine, you are giving leeway to people who do not want to believe in that doctrine. Whereas if they understand that it is an essential, they may be motivated to seek out an understanding of it in the word; and not to reject it. But if they do not see it as an essential, they may consider that it's not important; and will die in their sins because they did not believe in it nor seek to be able to do so.

Thus you will be responsible for their damnation.

What will you say to the Lord on your day of judgment when this is brought to bear on your life?

Where in the passage that includes John 8:24 does the scripture exclude Gentiles concerning the application of what the Lord said?

A strawmans argument. What has straw got to do with grain. In the case of John 8. Jesus was not talking to the Gentiles....to take something Jesus said to the house of Israel and make it a gentile issue is biblically incorrect and clearly shows immaturity of the word.

 

[Angelina]

Do you believe Jesus died for all people; or that He died only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel?

So now you are going to use the reverse psychology. Ummm okay. No I believe that Jesus died for the lost sheep of Israel that is why I am a believer in Jesus Christ who is my Lord and Savior even though I am from pagan ancestry, a gentile Christian and even though I not an Israelite, nor am I of Jewish descent.

 

[Renniks]

If we believe in Jesus, we shall never die, but who is Jesus? Because another person's understanding of who Jesus is, is not yours, is that person condemned, according you? Is this not the kind of declaration we should avoid regarding the beliefs of another? What does God think about it? We are surely not saved or lost according to our own determined theology, are we?

That is some slippery slope you have there. If I can believe Jesus is anything I want to believe, he can be Mohammed or the buddha or Micky mouse, but as long as I call him "Jesus" I'm good to go staight to heaven, no passing go or collecting $200?

 

[marks]

Again, you are referring to John 8 but your point is not consistent with this verse. Jesus, who came to the lost sheep of Israel, had a crowd of gatherers with him who were Jewish. Some of them were believing Jews, others not. Amongst them were the Scribes and the Pharisees. From verse 13-30 Jesus is specifically speaking to the Pharisees and the Jews. Verse 23 you are quoting, is spoken to the non-believing Jews and Pharisees.

They were given this warning from Jesus but it has absolutely nothing to do with the point you are making which is without accepting Christ's deity, you will not be saved. The Gentiles were not there in this verse. The Jews did not even talk the the gentiles until Jesus actually spoke to the woman at the well. That is something you have added to the salvation message that is not there. It also shows your knowledge of our Lord and Savior or lack thereof.

Please....don't think that God does not know your heart toward those who do not agree with you due to your lack of biblical exposition . He does know you very well.

I'm curious about something.

Are you saying that Jesus told the Pharisees that unless they believed His deity, they would die in their sins, but that this does not apply to others? I want to make sure I understand. I'm curious why that would be.

Much love!