What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?

[101G]

He made 'all' things for his Son and planned for his creation at an appropriate time to bring forth and execute his plan for our salvation.

are you serious? Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" (see John 1:3).
Colossians 1:17 "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."
Colossians 1:18 "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

The Son is God himself. John 1:1-3.

PICJAG.

 

[APAK]

The Word has always existed. He had no beginning.

The transliterated word, for word in Greek 'Logos' is never a person (he or she). It is male gender in Greek and an 'it' when translated into English.

Let me expand on this for a bit...from some of my personal notes for expedience...

For some unfortunate reason, the Greek transliterated symbol ‘logos’ was translated into English as the symbol word ‘word.’

The Greek symbol ὁ λόγος does not have to be translated into English as ‘word.’ It actually means thought(s), speech, command(s), or will, voiced or spoken as an expression of thought(s) as a plan or purpose placed into words forming a message transmitted and intended to be heard by a being, a person or persons. It is never used for a person or any gender!!

The Greek transliterated word ‘logos’ is a masculine gender noun or name in the Greek language. Once however ‘logos’ is translated into English it becomes a neuter pronoun, an ‘it.’ This is because the English language does not have male or female gender attached to it adjectives and nouns. Many make the case that since ‘logos’ is a male gender in Greek, it means a male person or pronoun in English. This is at least intellectual dishonesty, and they must know it. The French for the table is ‘le tableau.’ It is a male gendered noun and yet the table is not really a ‘male’ table, it is a neuter, an ‘it,’ as in an inanimate object. The same as logos - it is an 'it.'

APAK

 

[Angelina]

This is not answer to the specific questions in my post.

I was in the middle of writing when you posted it that is why. So again

John 8
The story starts off with Jesus and the teachers of the law and the Pharisees who bring a woman caught in adultery. He wisely poses a question to them and none of them were able to cast a stone at her because they recognised that they were not without sin.

Then Jesus makes the statement that he is the light of the world. This statement brings together the Jewish ideology of truth and knowledge, insinuating that the speaker is the only source of spiritual truth. This turns into a powerful verbal battle between him and the religious leaders of their day. They were claiming to be descendants of Abraham and favoured by God. Jesus then pointed out that if they were Abraham's children, they would not be trying to kill him for speaking the truth, that Abraham would not do that.

And it went from bad to worse with Jesus saying that they were children of the devil and the Religious leaders accusing him of having a demon. Then when Jesus said " before Abraham was, I am.....Those religious leader, experts in the law and Jews tried to stone him....

Can you please tell me in this story, where the religious rulers of the day, the teachers of the law the Pharisees and the Jews who followed the law of Moses and Jesus, somehow manage to fit into the gentiles???

 

[Angelina]

@Angelina,

I want you to specifically answer my question about Philippians.

bro...you haven't answered any of my questions yet?

 

[Angelina]

JustbyFaith ~

Why would Pharisees die in their sins for not believing that Jesus is the great I AM, while Gentiles are exempt from His statement? Is Jesus being discriminatory?

Did you read the above post bro...they were followers of the law yet they did not keep the law. This again is a strawmans argument. As you know, this has nothing to do with your statement about "Jesus being the great I am"

The gentiles have nothing to do with this religious argument because they had no knowledge of Jesus in the context of the Jewish beliefs and understanding. Today, as you already know, we are saved by grace through faith. Something they did not acknowledge because they did not know him and they believed that they were favoured by God because they were children of Abraham and they were still following the Law of Moses....

 

[justbyfaith]

bro...you haven't answered any of my questions yet?

I realize that you don't have an adequate answer for my question that will help your opinion...

What question of yours have I not answered?

State it, I will answer it; and then you will answer mine (if you can).

 

[justbyfaith]

Can you please tell me in this story, where the religious rulers of the day, the teachers of the law the Pharisees and the Jews who followed the law of Moses and Jesus, somehow manage to fit into the gentiles???

I will answer your question with another question (which I have also asked you before, and it was not answered):

Can you please tell me, how it is true in your sight, that this scripture in John 8:24 is not profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, as it applies to Gentiles (see 2 Timothy 3:16)?

But I am really more interested in the answer to my other question (about Philippians).

 

[Angelina]

I realize that you don't have an adequate answer for my question that will help your opinion...

What question of yours have I not answered?

State it, I will answer it; and then you will answer mine (if you can).

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

Can you please tell me in this story, where the religious rulers of the day, the teachers of the law the Pharisees and the Jews who followed the law of Moses and Jesus, somehow manage to fit into the gentiles???

 

[APAK]

Praying for you, @APAK, @Angelina, @bbyrd009, and @amadeus.

Something to seriously consider:

Most people cannot handle the truth, whether of this world or of spiritual things of YHWH. Many who fear it are part of a grand spiritual deception. It never ends. Duped, persuaded and deceived by false teachers for many years, ingrained into their minds and hearts of fables and pagan theories and devices, they never grow in spirit. Their reason for scripture is not for understanding and the love of YHWH and his Son. It is used to force, support and promote their false pagan beliefs into scripture, to change and corrupt its meaning in many areas. Ultimately, it is used to mock the Father and the Son. Do they really and truly believe that the Father of all creation created and brought a human Son into this world for our benefit and our own glory, for his own glory? Or do they neutralize, dismiss and trivialize this plan of salvation in favor of a Son that was also God himself? One is a Christian, the other opposes Christ (anti-Christian).

Peace and truth,

APAK

 

[tigger 2]

Heb. 1:8 (the OP, Remember?)

Here is a smattering of my study of this scripture:

Literal word-for-word translation of Heb. 1:8: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age” - Notice that there is no verb here. Translators are free to insert the verb (probably “is”) wherever they wish. Obviously, trinitarian translators will choose to insert the understood verb and punctuation/capitalization at a place where it gives a trinitarian meaning: “your throne, O God, [is]….”

So it is unlikely that any trinitarian scholar or translator would choose to acknowledge the more probable alternate to this trinitarian rendering. And yet, notice the following:

A. Translations of Heb. 1:8 by trinitarians:

“God is your throne” - AT (Dr. Goodspeed)

“God is thy throne” - Mo (Dr. Moffatt)

“God is your throne” - Byington

“God is your throne” - Dr. Barclay

“God is thy throne” - Dr. Westcott

“God is thy throne” - A.T. Robertson (Alternate translation)

“God is thy throne” - Dr. Young (Alt.)

“God is thy throne” - RSV (Alt.)

“God is your throne” - NRSV (Alt.)

“God is thy throne” - NEB (Alt.)

“Thy throne is God” - ASV (Alt.)

………………………………..........

B. Translations of Ps. 45:6 (quoted at Heb. 1:8) by trinitarians:

“Your Divine throne” - RSV

“Your throne is like God’s throne” - NEB

“God is your throne” - Byington

“The kingdom that God has given you” - GNB

“God has enthroned you” - REB

“Your throne is from God” - NJB

“Your throne is a throne of God” - NRSV (Alt.)

“Thy throne is the throne of God” - ASV (Alt.)

“Your divine throne is eternal and everlasting” - CEB

………………………………

New Testament texts produced by trinitarians in which autou (“His”) was chosen as being from the original text for Heb. 1:8 ("... the scepter of his [autou] kingdom") include Westcott and Hort; Nestle’s (21st ed.).

It has been admitted by respected trinitarian scholars (UBS text writers) that if autou (“his”) were in the original writing of Heb. 1:8 ('scepter of his, autou, kingdom'), the proper rendering must be “God is your throne”! – p. 663, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, United Bible Societies, 1971.

Even the highly respected NASB renders this as "... the scepter of his kingdom." The Jerusalem Bible; New Jerusalem Bible; The New English Bible; Revised English Bible; AT (Smith and Goodspeed); Rotherham; Byington; C.B. Williams; etc. also render it using "his." This is undoubtedly because most of the oldest existing manuscripts which include Hebrews 1:8 have autou (‘his’) here.

The trinitarian interpretation that Heb. 1:8 is definitely a trinity 'proof' is unjustified.

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/heb-18.html

 

[justbyfaith]

@Angelina,

I went back looking for ?'s in your posts and didn't find any until before page 6.

Who do you think "he" is?

my answer:

See the beginning of post #61.

:

He is in reference to God. Also, the word is in italics, which means that it is not in the original text. So Jesus is saying, "Unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins."

Please put this in context. Again, he is talking to the Pharisees and Jews. Why? because they did not believe that he was the Messiah. The coming one. That is what they [the Jews] have been waiting for and they did not recognise him.

I assume that this was a rhetorical question that you wanted to give the answer to.

How many people do you know @amadeus who are baby Christians and who have their theology correct. How many baby christians do you know, have even read a bible yet?

This question was not addressed to me, so why should I answer it?

Are you a Pharisee?

answer: no; although my attempt is towards my righteousness exceeding theirs (Matthew 5:17-20).

Really? ~ does this sound like something a gentile believer would relate to who has come from out of the world into Christ?

you then quoted verses that show Jesus calling the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for various reasons.

my answer:

Does Jesus specifically address the scribes and Pharisees as being scribes and Pharisees in John 8:24? I don't think so.

He is making a doctrinal statement that applies to all. Where in the passage does it say that Gentiles are excluded?

You really believe then, that when Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, he's not actually targeting them but rather all people?

My answer: yes. I believe that the words of our Lord apply to all people (2 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:1-3).

I went back as far as page 4 to find questions. If there were any by you from page 3 and under, forgive me for being lazy and not wanting to go back further. You can bring them up if you wish. I think that you came into the conversation around page 4 anyway.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @APAK,

Please show anywhere in scripture where it is condemnation to believe in the Deity of Christ?

I have shown where it is condemnation not to (and it is clear to the rational mind).

 

[Enoch111]

This is at least intellectual dishonesty, and they must know it.

What is really intellectually dishonest is to refuse to accept what is actually there in Scripture, regardless of everything else.

But that is not what the Jehovah's Witnesses did. They actually made Christ into a lesser "god", which is utterly dishonest and foolish. See their New World Translation.

But when anyone opens their Bible to John chapter one, they do not have to look at any Lexicon or Grammar or anything else. The words are plain as day.

JOHN 1: JESUS IS GOD THE WORD WHO BECAME A MAN

THE WORD IS ETERNAL
In the beginning was the Word...
THE WORD WAS WITH GOD THE FATHER
...and the Word was with God...
THE WORD WAS IN FACT GOD
and the Word was God.
THE WORD AND THE FATHER ARE ETERNAL
The same was in the beginning with God.
THE WORD IS THE CREATOR
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
THE WORD IS ETERNAL LIFE AND THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
DARKNESS CANNOT OVERCOME DIVINE LIGHT
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not....
THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world...
THE WORD BECAME A MAN AND DWELT AMONG MEN
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...
THE WORD IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD
...and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

We know from the rest of the Bible, that the only begotten Son of God is the Lord Jesus Christ, who is also the Word of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, therefore He Himself is God. And He declared that He is "I AM" (the name of God). He appeared to men in the OT as the Angel of the LORD, but at the same time declared that He is "I AM THAT I AM", the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[justbyfaith]

Heb. 1:8 (the OP, Remember?)

Here is a smattering of my study of this scripture:

Literal word-for-word translation of Heb. 1:8: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age” - Notice that there is no verb here. Translators are free to insert the verb (probably “is”) wherever they wish. Obviously, trinitarian translators will choose to insert the understood verb and punctuation/capitalization at a place where it gives a trinitarian meaning: “your throne, O God, [is]….”

So it is unlikely that any trinitarian scholar or translator would choose to acknowledge the more probable alternate to this trinitarian rendering. And yet, notice the following:

A. Translations of Heb. 1:8 by trinitarians:

“God is your throne” - AT (Dr. Goodspeed)

“God is thy throne” - Mo (Dr. Moffatt)

“God is your throne” - Byington

“God is your throne” - Dr. Barclay

“God is thy throne” - Dr. Westcott

“God is thy throne” - A.T. Robertson (Alternate translation)

“God is thy throne” - Dr. Young (Alt.)

“God is thy throne” - RSV (Alt.)

“God is your throne” - NRSV (Alt.)

“God is thy throne” - NEB (Alt.)

“Thy throne is God” - ASV (Alt.)

………………………………..........

B. Translations of Ps. 45:6 (quoted at Heb. 1:8) by trinitarians:

“Your Divine throne” - RSV

“Your throne is like God’s throne” - NEB

“God is your throne” - Byington

“The kingdom that God has given you” - GNB

“God has enthroned you” - REB

“Your throne is from God” - NJB

“Your throne is a throne of God” - NRSV (Alt.)

“Thy throne is the throne of God” - ASV (Alt.)

“Your divine throne is eternal and everlasting” - CEB

………………………………

New Testament texts produced by trinitarians in which autou (“His”) was chosen as being from the original text for Heb. 1:8 ("... the scepter of his [autou] kingdom") include Westcott and Hort; Nestle’s (21st ed.).

It has been admitted by respected trinitarian scholars (UBS text writers) that if autou (“his”) were in the original writing of Heb. 1:8 ('scepter of his, autou, kingdom'), the proper rendering must be “God is your throne”! – p. 663, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, United Bible Societies, 1971.

Even the highly respected NASB renders this as "... the scepter of his kingdom." The Jerusalem Bible; New Jerusalem Bible; The New English Bible; Revised English Bible; AT (Smith and Goodspeed); Rotherham; Byington; C.B. Williams; etc. also render it using "his." This is undoubtedly because most of the oldest existing manuscripts which include Hebrews 1:8 have autou (‘his’) here.

The trinitarian interpretation that Heb. 1:8 is definitely a trinity 'proof' is unjustified.

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/heb-18.html

Hi @tigger,

If Jesus is merely a god and not God then He is a false god: for there is only one true God (John 17:3).

btw, in that verse, the word and is kai in the Greek and it can be translated even.

Similarly in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

 

[Angelina]

Justbyfaith ~

Can you please tell me, how it is true in your sight, that this scripture in John 8:24 is not profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, as it applies to Gentiles (see 2 Timothy 3:16)?

The question you have posed is thrown in to hide the original discussion right at the beginning on page 52. when I disagreed with your premise. Is your strategy here to deviate your opponent by tiring them out with sidetracking and strawman arguments?

The verse you are quoting 2 Timothy 3:16 was written by Paul and he was referring to the Old Testament since the New Testament did not exist at that time. However, I think that all scripture is useful even the NT scripture

But I am really more interested in the answer to my other question (about Philippians).

 

[Angelina]

@Angelina,

I went back looking for ?'s in your posts and didn't find any until before page 6.
my answer:
I assume that this was a rhetorical question that you wanted to give the answer to.
This question was not addressed to me, so why should I answer it?
answer: no; although my attempt is towards my righteousness exceeding theirs (Matthew 5:17-20).

you then quoted verses that show Jesus calling the scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for various reasons.my answer:

My answer: yes. I believe that the words of our Lord apply to all people (2 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 1:1-3).

I went back as far as page 4 to find questions. If there were any by you from page 3 and under, forgive me for being lazy and not wanting to go back further. You can bring them up if you wish. I think that you came into the conversation around page 4 anyway.

Really bro??

 

[justbyfaith]

Really bro??

You don't want to, or can't, answer my question about Philippians?

post #172 (What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?)

 

[APAK]

What is really intellectually dishonest is to refuse to accept what is actually there in Scripture, regardless of everything else.

But that is not what the Jehovah's Witnesses did. They actually made Christ into a lesser "god", which is utterly dishonest and foolish. See their New World Translation.

But when anyone opens their Bible to John chapter one, they do not have to look at any Lexicon or Grammar or anything else. The words are plain as day.

JOHN 1: JESUS IS GOD THE WORD WHO BECAME A MAN

THE WORD IS ETERNAL
In the beginning was the Word...
THE WORD WAS WITH GOD THE FATHER
...and the Word was with God...
THE WORD WAS IN FACT GOD
and the Word was God.
THE WORD AND THE FATHER ARE ETERNAL
The same was in the beginning with God.
THE WORD IS THE CREATOR
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
THE WORD IS ETERNAL LIFE AND THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
DARKNESS CANNOT OVERCOME DIVINE LIGHT
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not....
THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world...
THE WORD BECAME A MAN AND DWELT AMONG MEN
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...
THE WORD IS THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD
...and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

We know from the rest of the Bible, that the only begotten Son of God is the Lord Jesus Christ, who is also the Word of God, the second person of the Holy Trinity, therefore He Himself is God. And He declared that He is "I AM" (the name of God). He appeared to men in the OT as the Angel of the LORD, but at the same time declared that He is "I AM THAT I AM", the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

You just confirmed and validated my words, superbly and in living color, by your reply.

I recommend you wait on the Spirit for a change, for understanding and truth, and less on your own ignorance and pride. I estimate that in years to come you will still parrot the same words from scripture lacking wisdom and truth in what you have just written. This is a typical response from those that continually promote their pagan theories of their god they worship. Like a marquee loaded with fake news text that just moves continuously across it without any true purpose. Enjoy your 3 persons of 3 person-gods. Why are they listed as the first, second and third in that order, anyway? Does it make a difference if you changed the numerical sequence of these persons? Say make the Holy Spirit the 1st person? Is that a sin if you did.

Yes, I'm being difficult deliberately because I do not believe in this pagan concept that is not contained in the Word of God.

APAK

 

[justbyfaith]

Is your strategy here to deviate your opponent by tiring them out with sidetracking and strawman arguments?

I wasn't even really looking for an answer.

I want the answer to the other question more.

 

[justbyfaith]

this pagan concept that is not contained in the Word of God.

It is very clearly in the word of the Lord...if you don't see that then I suppose we have to believe that the following applies:

2Co 4:3, But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I say this not in any type of anger or spite; but rather in an attempt to open your eyes.

I'm still praying for you, btw.