What do you think this text says about the deity of Christ?

[justbyfaith]

If anyone has the Holy Ghost (is truly born again of the Holy Spirit) they will never deny the reality that Jesus is the God who created them.

In fact, the opposite is also true, that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord (God) except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

It is clear from holy scripture that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6) and that, that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). see also Isaiah 9:6.

 

[101G]

If anyone has the Holy Ghost (is truly born again of the Holy Spirit) they will never deny the reality that Jesus is the God who created them.

In fact, the opposite is also true, that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord (God) except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

It is clear from holy scripture that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6) and that, that Lord is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). see also Isaiah 9:6.

is not that "Lord" the Spirit? 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

and God is "a" Spirit, meaning only ONE Spirit, John 4:24a. now that got the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all rolled into one. the same one PERSON.
Jesus is the Father, the Son, who are the "Titles" of the ONE TRUE SPIRIT, the Holy Spirit.

PICJAG.

 

[justbyfaith]

is not that "Lord" the Spirit? 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."

and God is "a" Spirit, meaning only ONE Spirit, John 4:24a. now that got the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all rolled into one. the same one PERSON.
Jesus is the Father, the Son, who are the "Titles" of the ONE TRUE SPIRIT, the Holy Spirit.

PICJAG.

Indeed; yet there is also a distinction to be made between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

For example, scripture teaches that the Spirit of truth proceedeth from the Father (John 15:26) and that Jesus came out from God (John 16:27-28).

It cannot be disputed that the Father and the Son are distinct individuals from one another when you consider the word both in 2 John 1:9.

 

[marks]

I do not believe this expression by Thomas is an address to anyone. If Thomas had said, “You are my Lord and my God,” we might have reason for such a representational interpretation.

Your first example, a hypothetical "you are my Lord and my God", this would be an example of giving a descriptive statement about someone to that person.

Thomas' words however, are an address.

Posting Member of the forum! That's right, you! You are a posting member of the forum. Do you see the distinction here?

To me this is a very simple thing. Thomas addressed Jesus as God, and Jesus did not demurr that address, therefore either Jesus is in fact God, or Jesus did a very naughty thing in His ommission, something even an angel wouldn't overlook!

How important do you think it is that we worship God Alone?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The very fact that the words of Thomas are not a complete statement show that it is probably the abbreviated form of a common expression or doxology and not a statement of identification such as “you are my lord and my god.”

OMG! Meaningless acronym to so many.

But from Thomas?

 

[marks]

No, I seriously just find you weird and cultish.

Hi DNB, I think those are "inside thoughts".

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

The doctrine that the Deity of Christ, as a doctrine, is essential for salvation is, in fact, sound doctrine (not erroneous in the slightest).

 

[101G]

Indeed; yet there is also a distinction to be made between Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

For example, scripture teaches that the Spirit of truth proceedeth from the Father (John 15:26) and that Jesus came out from God (John 16:27-28).

It cannot be disputed that the Father and the Son are distinct individuals from one another when you consider the word both in 2 John 1:9.

I just cannot believe some of you. listen is your "own" arm separate and distinct from you? NO

Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

if one say that the Spirit who is the "Father" and the "Son" is separate and distince, is anti christ and not knowing it. scripture plain as day tells us so.

but look, I leave you to Revelation 22:11

Good day

PICJAG.

 

[DNB]

Hi DNB, I think those are "inside thoughts".

Much love!

Sorry, what do you mean by 'inside thoughts', personal or subjective thoughts?

 

[Enoch111]

The doctrine that the Deity of Christ, as a doctrine, is essential for salvation is, in fact, sound doctrine (not erroneous in the slightest).

Absolutely. Indeed it is FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINE.

1 TIMOTHY 3:16: THE DEITY OF CHRIST IS INDISPUTABLE
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

THIS TRUTH NOT SUBJECT TO CONTROVERSY OR DEBATE
And without controversy...

THE DEITY AND HUMANITY OF CHRIST ARE A GREAT DIVINE MYSTERY
...great is the mystery of godliness...

GOD TOOK HUMAN FORM -- THE DEITY OF CHRIST
...God was manifest in the flesh...

CHRIST WAS RESURRECTED BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT
...justified in the Spirit...

ANGELS ACCOMPANIED CHRIST TO HEAVEN AT HIS ASCENSION
...seen of angels...

PAUL PREACHED CHRIST PRIMARY TO GENTILES
...preached unto the Gentiles...

THE ROMAN WORLD AND BEYOND WAS CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY
...believed on in the world...

CHRIST WAS EXALTED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER
...received up into glory.

 

[marks]

Sorry, what do you mean by 'inside thoughts', personal or subjective thoughts?

Thoughts that we keep inside our minds.

 

[101G]

Absolutely. Indeed it is FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINE.

1 TIMOTHY 3:16: THE DEITY OF CHRIST IS INDISPUTABLE
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

THIS TRUTH NOT SUBJECT TO CONTROVERSY OR DEBATE
And without controversy...

THE DEITY AND HUMANITY OF CHRIST ARE A GREAT DIVINE MYSTERY
...great is the mystery of godliness...

GOD TOOK HUMAN FORM -- THE DEITY OF CHRIST
...God was manifest in the flesh...

CHRIST WAS RESURRECTED BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT
...justified in the Spirit...

ANGELS ACCOMPANIED CHRIST TO HEAVEN AT HIS ASCENSION
...seen of angels...

PAUL PREACHED CHRIST PRIMARY TO GENTILES
...preached unto the Gentiles...

THE ROMAN WORLD AND BEYOND WAS CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY
...believed on in the world...

CHRIST WAS EXALTED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER
...received up into glory.

I agree with 1 TIMOTHY 3:16, which as stated, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

by manifesting in flesh, God is christ. but please explaing this verse in reference to 1 TIMOTHY 3:16,. listen, 2 Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."

so my question, if God is Christ, how is God in christ when he is already manifested as Christ?.

PICJAG.

 

[justbyfaith]

I just cannot believe some of you. listen is your "own" arm separate and distinct from you? NO

Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me."

if one say that the Spirit who is the "Father" and the "Son" is separate and distince, is anti christ and not knowing it. scripture plain as day tells us so.

but look, I leave you to Revelation 22:11

Good day

PICJAG.

Jhn 15:26, But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:27, For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Jhn 16:28, I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

2Jo 1:9, Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

It is certainly not antichrist to believe the testimony of holy scripture.

 

[APAK]

Absolutely. Indeed it is FUNDAMENTAL DOCTRINE.

1 TIMOTHY 3:16: THE DEITY OF CHRIST IS INDISPUTABLE
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

THIS TRUTH NOT SUBJECT TO CONTROVERSY OR DEBATE
And without controversy...

THE DEITY AND HUMANITY OF CHRIST ARE A GREAT DIVINE MYSTERY
...great is the mystery of godliness...

GOD TOOK HUMAN FORM -- THE DEITY OF CHRIST
...God was manifest in the flesh...

CHRIST WAS RESURRECTED BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT
...justified in the Spirit...

ANGELS ACCOMPANIED CHRIST TO HEAVEN AT HIS ASCENSION
...seen of angels...

PAUL PREACHED CHRIST PRIMARY TO GENTILES
...preached unto the Gentiles...

THE ROMAN WORLD AND BEYOND WAS CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY
...believed on in the world...

CHRIST WAS EXALTED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER
...received up into glory.

I do not understand your fundamental doctrine claim for this verse. I also would be not too quick to say you understand this verse completely without knowledge of some of its original or earliest form.

A short explanation:

The word ‘God’ was added into this verse deliberately in a few translations to say that God was Jesus who was revealed in the flesh. The KJV lead the way.

Additionally, the passage does not read ‘in the flesh. It says. ‘in flesh’ or as a human being. Some translation read it as “in a body.”

The word ‘eusebias’ translated as ‘godliness’ is the best translation into English, although still an incomplete thought in its translation.

Christ is that fleshly manifestation of His (God’s) mystery.

The oldest manuscripts do not have the word ‘God’ or in Greek, ‘theos’ in this verse. Fortunately, modern translators have completed omitted this most probable translators’ error.

Instead of God, they used the word ‘He,’ ‘Who’ or ‘Which’ instead.

Another clear issue and nonsense with using ‘God’ for the Greek word ‘euebias,’ is that if we just keep reading further into the verse, it says that God was justified in the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the Gentiles, was believed on in the world, and he was received into glory. This would be nonsense, as Christ did all these things and not his Father. Unless one wants to use circular logic and say Jesus is God because God who is really Jesus did all these things in the verse, and not just the man and the anointed of God, his Son, Yahshua.

So, the best translated section of passage should read ‘…great is the mystery of godliness who was revealed in flesh…’ This interpretation says that the secret of Godly thoughts and plans, his word (and holiness, piety and godliness) for our salvation was revealed in a human being. His name is Jesus Christ or Yahshua , and not his Father of his (Holy) Spirit.

Paul tells us how the hidden truth of God’s word was his own kept secret until now, regarding the plan of our salvation and how he would bring this salvation to us. He revealed it through his created Son, Jesus Christ.

God’s truth and plan of salvation was revealed with his word of, and through a man, called Jesus whom God himself created, as the last Adam. We need not lose sight that Jesus is the last Adam, and his Father, with his own (Holy) Spirit, could never be.

Just saying....this verse is far from being fundamental in any shape or form.

Added...
Jesus was seen by the angels and people heard him preach the great news about salvation to the nations. People believed in Jesus as the Son of God and his Father’s mission on earth. Jesus triumphed culminating by his Father raising him from death, into immortality. (Reference John 17)


Blessings,

APAK

 

[justbyfaith]

The word ‘God’ was added into this verse deliberately in a few translations to say that God was Jesus who was revealed in the flesh. The KJV lead the way.

And who is to say that these few translations didn't get it right?

The narrower the view; and the fewer the ones who hold to it: the more likely it is to be the real gospel of Jesus Christ:

Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[DNB]

Thoughts that we keep inside our minds.

No, he needs to hear it. I don't say these things to disparage or discourage, but to make him aware. I'd love to engage on this issue, but I find him too radical and irrational in his argumentation, continuously, that he just comes off as both weird and ignorant.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, he needs to hear it. I don't say these things to disparage or discourage, but to make him aware. I'd love to engage on this issue, but I find him too radical and irrational in his argumentation, continuously, that he just comes off as both weird and ignorant.

Praise the Lord!

Radically saved is the only way to be...

Rev 3:15, I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16, So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

[justbyfaith]

@DNB,

you are very likely a Jehovah's Witness or Christadelphian; both of which are known cults.

 

[Enoch111]

The word ‘God’ was added into this verse deliberately in a few translations to say that God was Jesus who was revealed in the flesh. The KJV lead the way.

Do your due diligence before you make such inaccurate and misleading remarks.

As a matter of fact Dean John William Burgon in The Revision Revised wrote a 76 page DISSERTATION on this verse, and clearly established that *GOD* is the correct reading.

[19] “GOD was manifested in the flesh” Shown To Be The True Reading Of 1 Timothy III. 16.

A Dissertation.
In conclusion, you [Bishop Ellicott] insist on ripping up the discussion
concerning 1 Tim. iii. 16 I had already devoted eight pages
to this subject. You reply in twelve. That I may not be
thought wanting in courtesy, the present rejoinder shall extend to seventy-six..

...Moreover this is the view of the matter in which all the learning and all the piety of the English Church has thankfully acquiesced for the last 350 years. It has commended itself to Andrewes and Pearson, Bull and Hammond, Hall and Stillingfleet, Ussher and Beveridge, Mill and Bengel, Waterland and Berriman. The enumeration of names is easily brought down to our own times. Dr. Henderson, (the learned non-conformist commentator,) in 1830 published a volume with the following title:—

“The great mystery of godliness incontrovertible: or, Sir Isaac Newton and the Socinians foiled in the attempt to prove a corruption in the text 1 Tim. iii. 16: containing a review of the charges brought against the passage; an examination of the
various readings; and a confirmation of that in the received
text on principles of general and biblical criticism.”

The Revision Revised, pages 434-510.

Of course, since you are a committed naysayer, it will make no difference to you, and you will find yet another excuse to dodge the truth. However, keep in mind that those that refuse the truth become spiritually blinded.

 

[APAK]

Do your due diligence before you make such inaccurate and misleading remarks.

As a matter of fact Dean John William Burgon in The Revision Revised wrote a 76 page DISSERTATION on this verse, and clearly established that *GOD* is the correct reading.

[19] “GOD was manifested in the flesh” Shown To Be The True Reading Of 1 Timothy III. 16.

A Dissertation.
In conclusion, you [Bishop Ellicott] insist on ripping up the discussion
concerning 1 Tim. iii. 16 I had already devoted eight pages
to this subject. You reply in twelve. That I may not be
thought wanting in courtesy, the present rejoinder shall extend to seventy-six..

...Moreover this is the view of the matter in which all the learning and all the piety of the English Church has thankfully acquiesced for the last 350 years. It has commended itself to Andrewes and Pearson, Bull and Hammond, Hall and Stillingfleet, Ussher and Beveridge, Mill and Bengel, Waterland and Berriman. The enumeration of names is easily brought down to our own times. Dr. Henderson, (the learned non-conformist commentator,) in 1830 published a volume with the following title:—

“The great mystery of godliness incontrovertible: or, Sir Isaac Newton and the Socinians foiled in the attempt to prove a corruption in the text 1 Tim. iii. 16: containing a review of the charges brought against the passage; an examination of the
various readings; and a confirmation of that in the received
text on principles of general and biblical criticism.”

The Revision Revised, pages 434-510.

Of course, since you are a committed naysayer, it will make no difference to you, and you will find yet another excuse to dodge the truth. However, keep in mind that those that refuse the truth become spiritually blinded.

mmm John Burgon, the same Anglican that attempted to defend the authenticity of the last 12 verses of Mark 16. When these verses were never found in any early manuscript of Mark. You are right, I'm not impressed and you can keep your precious source as your truth.

As I already said,
Instead of God, they used the word ‘He,’ ‘Who’ or ‘Which’ instead. Some examples, even from your fellow Trinitarians....they do get it right many times I have to admit...

NIV 1984 edition - “HE appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit...”

NASB 1995 edition - “HE WHO was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit...”

RSV - “HE was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit...”

ESV 2001 - “HE (R10) was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit...” Footnote 10 - Greek Who; some manuscripts God; others Which.

Holman Standard 2003 - “HE was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit”

ISV (International Standard Version) - “In flesh was HE revealed to sight, Kept righteous by the Spirit's might”

Catholic Douay-Rheims 1582 - “And evidently great is the mystery of godliness WHICH was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels,”

Catholic Douay 1950 - "great is the mystery of godliness: WHICH was manifested in the flesh"

St. Joseph New American Bible 1970 - “HE was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit...”

Catholic New Jerusalem bible 1985 - “HE was made visible in the flesh, justified in the Spirit...”

Catholic Public Domain Version 2009 - "this mystery of piety, which was manifested in the flesh"

Besides, you are also missing the main point, it was Jesus that was seen by angels, given glory by his Father etc... his Father as YHWH never gave himself a human body and then gave glory to it....how sick is that...unless you invent impossible and imaginary processes like incarnation and the hypostatic union of two natures dwelling in one vessel and kept separate, mutually exclusive.

To force YHWH into a human body, to make him have his own divine nature plus a human nature, to fit a sick pagan theory that is a mystery and a lie. This mocks my Yahshua, Lord and Savior and my Creator, YHWH. It brings Yahshua, the Son of YHWH of no consequence or significance, and mocks his Father's role and power and influence on his Son to bring salvation to us all, who is also my YHWH.

It would be interesting to know who you pray to, and it must be difficult at times to keep it all straight with all this stuff going on, of dual-200% natures housed inside one living human body, walking around 2000 years ago, and as a god-man saviour, as God the Son, and God the Father, and a separate personality for YHWH's own Spirit?

just saying....

APAK