Law Rules—Grace Lives

[Eternally Grateful]

This is in direct denial of the scriptures that I referenced to you.



The law is something that exists in the heart of God even before it was given. It is a moral standard that has applied to God throughout eternity as well as to all of His creation. The revelation of it was simply not given to man until Moses. But it is something that governs morality throughout creation from the beginning of time.

Jesus said if we looked at a woman with lust. We have commitd adulty..

That is not found in the law

Jesus said if we are angry at our brother. We have commited murder

This is not found in the law

The bible says if we know to do right yet do not do it. We have sinned,

That also is not found in the law

Sin is far greater than just breaking the law.. We can follow the law by the letter 100% yet still be in sin

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus said if we looked at a woman with lust. We have commitd adulty..

That is not found in the law

Jesus said if we are angry at our brother. We have commited murder

This is not found in the law

The bible says if we know to do right yet do not do it. We have sinned,

That also is not found in the law

Sin is far greater than just breaking the law.. We can follow the law by the letter 100% yet still be in sin

These things are found in the NT law (the Sermon on the Mount).

I would say that the NT law is what is in the heart of God; whether it has been revealed to mankind or not.

 

[justbyfaith]

We can follow the law by the letter 100% yet still be in sin

Scripture interprets scripture; and therefore when scripture refers to sin it is referring to the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

These things are found in the NT law (the Sermon on the Mount).

I would say that the NT law is what is in the heart of God; whether it has been revealed to mankind or not.

I think sin is more than just overt actions. That’s why trying to follow laws and thinking we are righteous is not a good idea

the overt actions proceed from a deeper
Sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Scripture interprets scripture; and therefore when scripture refers to sin it is referring to the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).

Lol if you think that is all
Sin is your in trouble

I proved otherwise so I will
Go with that

 

[justbyfaith]

So you are in denial of 1 John 3:9 is what you are saying.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you are in denial of 1 John 3:9 is what you are saying.

Nope. That’s says a person can not live I. Sin. Your flaw is the English text. John did not contradict himself. He can not say we are decieved if we think we are sinless then say we can not ever sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your flaw is the English text.

There is no flaw in the English text.

John did not contradict himself. He can not say we are decieved if we think we are sinless then say we can not ever sin.

You're right, he didn't. And therefore 1 John 1:8 is referring to indwelling sin rather than practical sin. Because 1 John 3:4-9 shows clearly that 1 John 1:8 cannot be referring to practical sin.

Sin dwells in our mortal flesh; but it can be put to death so that it is rendered inept; even unable to bring us under its power. See Romans 7:8, Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24. Romans 6:14.

 

[Brakelite]

Jesus said if we looked at a woman with lust. We have commitd adulty..

That is not found in the law

Jesus said if we are angry at our brother. We have commited murder

This is not found in the law

The bible says if we know to do right yet do not do it. We have sinned,

That also is not found in the law

Sin is far greater than just breaking the law.. We can follow the law by the letter 100% yet still be in sin

It is in the law. Just not written on stone. But Jesus came to reveal the law and make it honourable. Jesus came to uncover the self deceptions if those who thought they were innocent and righteous because they claimed to not murder or lie with a woman... That sin lies not only in the actions of a man, but in his heart. Joseph knew this which is why he ran away from Potiphars wife.
David sinned the moment he looked at Bathsheba in her bath. Just because you can't read those things in the law, they are still there. Always were.

 

[justbyfaith]

"Thou shalt not covet" brings "Thou shalt not steal" down home to the heart.

If you do this with every one of the commandments (i.e. "thou shalt not kill" "thou shalt not bear false witness", etc.) then you have what the LORD originally intended for the Israelites to understand. For He said in Psalms 1 that there is prosperity in meditating on the precepts of the law. Therefore one can only come to the proper conclusion, in bringing the law home to the heart, if one is thinking on it constantly.

The only thing that prevents this is the wickedness of the human heart (see Jeremiah 17:9).

 

[mjrhealth]

A testimony has authority. A testimony validates. A testimony gives witness to. Testimonies are what all court officials rule by. They are eye witness accounts. And this particular testimony is being told you by Jesus Himself. Search the scriptures. Through them you will find Me.
How do you know you have the right Jesus if you disregard the testimony that points directly to Him?

Have you not read theses forums, how many jesus do you think are on here. You know faith, that Bit that trusts God, peopel think becsue they read teh bible and go to church teh yknow Jesus, know all you know is about Him and that is you understanding not reality, As i have being told by my dad many times, the only way top know God is to experience God, but who is willing to give up religion and study to find Him, so few are thats why it says.

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

see you are not wiling to give up your religion so why should any one else.

 

[Scoot]

If I may use this as an opportunity to either share something (or otherwise be corrected if I am wrong so as an opportunity to learn)...

And please forgive me if I could word this better...

Jesus said if we looked at a woman with lust. We have committed adultery.

That is not found in the law

Jesus said if we are angry at our brother. We have commited murder

This is not found in the law

The bible says if we know to do right yet do not do it. We have sinned,

That also is not found in the law

As I understand it - it wasn't found in the law that Moses gave - because Moses gave an incomplete picture of God's law. It was only partly revealed to us at the time.

If we read Matthew 5:17 through to the end of the chapter as though it's all one message I see a different picture...

Mat 5:17-20 Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven.​

I know many take this as Christ abolishing the law. But He specifically states that heaven and earth will pass away - and not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law, and that anyone that teaches otherwise will be called least.

So what does it mean to fulfill the law? I think you've touched on it above because Moses didn't give us the full law...

Mat 5:21-26 You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" —and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment." But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever shall say, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of hell. Therefore if you offer your gift on the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you,leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are in the way with him; that the opponent not deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out from there until you have paid the last kodrantes.​

So here, it appears as though Moses only gave us part of the law. Moses dealt with an action (don't Kill) - but Jesus came and said this isn't about your action - to fulfill the law (to complete it) - you need to understand it's about your heart - and simply withholding your hand isn't enough.

Likewise he goes on with numerous examples. Moses talked about Adultery as a physical act only. He only gave us part of a view of the moral law. Jesus came and completed what Moses started - finishing the rest of the law for us showing that Adultery isn't about the physical act - but again, we can break this same law without a physical action by thought alone.

Jesus completed what Moses had started. And this law remains now - and will even when heaven and earth pass away - because outside of Jesus - it is by this law men will be condemned. It's what defines sin.

Thus the rich ruler believed that he had kept the commandments - but when we see Jesus fulfilling the law (by reading this in a single reading) - we see that Jesus raised the bar - and showed us that the law is far tougher than what even Moses gave. It's completely unobtainable for us as people.

Thus the good news. We can't keep this law, but Christ can for us. This law will condemn us outside of Jesus, so we so desperately need Him.

Of course we also know that Jesus was sinless as well - so He didn't just complete the law for us - He lived it and met all criteria for the law - but when I read those scriptures without stopping - it seems that the whole lot flows together - fulfilling the law along with the bar that Jesus raises.

If this is not the case, can someone please explain what did Jesus mean by saying:

"Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven".​

When I read this - it seems that before Jesus started - He knew that this was going to be a topic of controversy that many people would misunderstand it's purpose. He did everything possible to warn people of this impending mistake including stating that heaven and earth will pass away first, and warns anyone who teaches otherwise will be called least in the kingdom.

Or was that part only for 3 years between then and Christ's death - and then it's no longer relevant?

Or does what Jesus said here in Matthew 5 still apply now?

Again - I am not advocating that we must keep the law to earn salvation - that's impossible, but to understand that the law is still alive and ready to condemn anyone who would reject Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

I firmly believe scripture does not contradict scripture. This understanding seems to fit in with other verses about the law - both it no longer been relevant to us (for salvation), but that it is also a schoolmaster - and still exists and will condemn the unsaved.

As I also understand - God's moral law has always been. It wasn't established by Moses. Moses simply gave us a glimpse of what has always been. What Cain did in Genesis was sin - even before Moses penned 'Thou shall not kill'. Likewise there were clean and unclean animals prior to Moses - when Noah was told to bring in 7 pairs of clean, and 1 pair of unclean animals.

Moses showed us a lot - but it was never completed until Jesus came and showed us the full meaning.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There is no flaw in the English text.

If you think this that explains alot

You're right, he didn't. And therefore 1 John 1:8 is referring to indwelling sin rather than practical sin. Because 1 John 3:4-9 shows clearly that 1 John 1:8 cannot be referring to practical sin.

Sin dwells in our mortal flesh; but it can be put to death so that it is rendered inept; even unable to bring us under its power. See Romans 7:8, Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24. Romans 6:14.

And your wrong, And like John said, You have decieved yourself if you think you have no sin. Those are johns words not mine

If what you say is true, That John is saying literally a child of God can not sin. Then you have made it known that a person can be born again Possibly live ten years with no sin. and due to some circumstance. commit sin after ten years. According to John, that person NEVER KNEW GOD.

Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

Now I am sure not even you believe this.. The fact is, john is declairing a person who is born of God can not live in or habitually or have a lifestyle of sin. Which is what is the characteristic of an unbeliever. Whoever lives as the world lives has never seen or known God. Again your issue is with the English text. The greek text does not insinuate that a child of God can never commit a sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It is in the law. Just not written on stone. But Jesus came to reveal the law and make it honourable. Jesus came to uncover the self deceptions if those who thought they were innocent and righteous because they claimed to not murder or lie with a woman... That sin lies not only in the actions of a man, but in his heart. Joseph knew this which is why he ran away from Potiphars wife.
David sinned the moment he looked at Bathsheba in her bath. Just because you can't read those things in the law, they are still there. Always were.

I agree it is probably there in spirit. But I think you missed my point

The law did not tell you it was sin. So in effect it could not condemn you of those sins. nor could it show you ever possible means of breaking it. or how to obey it.

All the law had to do was show we have sinned and fall short It was not made to help us to be righteous people. or show us how to be morally good people. its purpose was to show us how immoral we are. As moses said, Cursed is the one who does not obey every word. And as James said, If we keep the whole law yet stumble in one point we are guilty of the whole law. Which according to moses. brings the curse of the law to all who are guilty. Which brings us to the lamb of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If I may use this as an opportunity to either share something (or otherwise be corrected if I am wrong so as an opportunity to learn)...

And please forgive me if I could word this better...



As I understand it - it wasn't found in the law that Moses gave - because Moses gave an incomplete picture of God's law. It was only partly revealed to us at the time.

If we read Matthew 5:17 through to the end of the chapter as though it's all one message I see a different picture...

Mat 5:17-20 Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven.​

I know many take this as Christ abolishing the law. But He specifically states that heaven and earth will pass away - and not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law, and that anyone that teaches otherwise will be called least.

So what does it mean to fulfill the law? I think you've touched on it above because Moses didn't give us the full law...

Mat 5:21-26 You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" —and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment." But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever shall say, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of hell. Therefore if you offer your gift on the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you,leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are in the way with him; that the opponent not deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out from there until you have paid the last kodrantes.​

So here, it appears as though Moses only gave us part of the law. Moses dealt with an action (don't Kill) - but Jesus came and said this isn't about your action - to fulfill the law (to complete it) - you need to understand it's about your heart - and simply withholding your hand isn't enough.

Likewise he goes on with numerous examples. Moses talked about Adultery as a physical act only. He only gave us part of a view of the moral law. Jesus came and completed what Moses started - finishing the rest of the law for us showing that Adultery isn't about the physical act - but again, we can break this same law without a physical action by thought alone.

Jesus completed what Moses had started. And this law remains now - and will even when heaven and earth pass away - because outside of Jesus - it is by this law men will be condemned. It's what defines sin.

Thus the rich ruler believed that he had kept the commandments - but when we see Jesus fulfilling the law (by reading this in a single reading) - we see that Jesus raised the bar - and showed us that the law is far tougher than what even Moses gave. It's completely unobtainable for us as people.

Thus the good news. We can't keep this law, but Christ can for us. This law will condemn us outside of Jesus, so we so desperately need Him.

Of course we also know that Jesus was sinless as well - so He didn't just complete the law for us - He lived it and met all criteria for the law - but when I read those scriptures without stopping - it seems that the whole lot flows together - fulfilling the law along with the bar that Jesus raises.

If this is not the case, can someone please explain what did Jesus mean by saying:

"Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven".​

When I read this - it seems that before Jesus started - He knew that this was going to be a topic of controversy that many people would misunderstand it's purpose. He did everything possible to warn people of this impending mistake including stating that heaven and earth will pass away first, and warns anyone who teaches otherwise will be called least in the kingdom.

Or was that part only for 3 years between then and Christ's death - and then it's no longer relevant?

Or does what Jesus said here in Matthew 5 still apply now?

Again - I am not advocating that we must keep the law to earn salvation - that's impossible, but to understand that the law is still alive and ready to condemn anyone who would reject Jesus Christ's sacrifice.

I firmly believe scripture does not contradict scripture. This understanding seems to fit in with other verses about the law - both it no longer been relevant to us (for salvation), but that it is also a schoolmaster - and still exists and will condemn the unsaved.

As I also understand - God's moral law has always been. It wasn't established by Moses. Moses simply gave us a glimpse of what has always been. What Cain did in Genesis was sin - even before Moses penned 'Thou shall not kill'. Likewise there were clean and unclean animals prior to Moses - when Noah was told to bring in 7 pairs of clean, and 1 pair of unclean animals.

Moses showed us a lot - but it was never completed until Jesus came and showed us the full meaning.

This is the way I see it

Gal 3:
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

From Paul here we see this

1. The law was given BECAUSE of transgressions
2. It was given to be enacted UNTIL the seed should come to whom the promise was made
3. That seed of course is the seed to whom abraham was told will bless all the nations of the world (Gen 22: 18)
4. The law was given to confine (greek word which means to shut up, hem in, enclose, imprison) all under sin, ie. To prove to the world we are guilty. which makes it so we have no excuse. all have sinned and fall short. the law proves this. (the commandments) in which Moses made Israel and all to confirm and obey every word 9literalyy every jot and tittle) and failure to do so would put them all under the curse of the law. Which is death. .
5. This proof of guilt is supposed to bring us to the answer. Of which another aspect of the law would show. The sacrifice. Which leads us to Christ, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world
Those who in this faith will receive the promise, which of course is to be redeemed from the curse of the law. And given life
6. The law was a tutur or schoolmaster (one who leads) which was to lead us by the hand to christ, so that we would be given the opportunity to be justified by faith.
7. Of course after faith is achieved, Then the law is no longer needed, Because it is incapable to helping us further, its job was complete. Now we look to the law of God. and serve a better law. of which the law of moses can not help.

Moses did not give us a partial law. He gave the exact law gave to him (remember, moses did not give the law God did, Moses just communicated that law to us) And that law Moses communicated had one purpose. to prepare Israel. an us for the savior. the promise who would come.

 

[justbyfaith]

And like John said, You have decieved yourself if you think you have no sin.

I don't think that I have no sin; while I do believe that if I am born of God, I cannot sin (John's words under the Spirit's inspiration, not mine).

If what you say is true, That John is saying literally a child of God can not sin. Then you have made it known that a person can be born again Possibly live ten years with no sin. and due to some circumstance. commit sin after ten years. According to John, that person NEVER KNEW GOD.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

If the person is truly born of God, they will not sin again after ten years.

Again your issue is with the English text. The greek text does not insinuate that a child of God can never commit a sin.

Consider 1 John 2:15-16. It insinuates that if I have the love of the Father in me, I will not indulge in the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, nor the pride of life. At the very least, I will not love any of those things (taking Romans 7:14-25 into account). If I am living a Romans 7:14-25 lifestyle, my ideal attitude is to be discontented with my condition (see Romans 7:24). Thus, graduating to Romans 8 is also ideal.


Now in Galatians 3:17 we do find that the promise of the Spirit will not be nullified if we fail to keep the law perfectly. If anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. However, there is also a regeneration and renewal that takes place in the heart of everyone who is born again (Titus 3:4-7); so that their direction in life is no longer towards sin but towards righteousness.

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don't think that I have no sin; while I do believe that if I am born of God, I cannot sin (John's words under the Spirit's inspiration, not mine).



Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

If the person is truly born of God, they will not sin again after ten years.

I am sorry, I just can not continue with this.

If you think this, I fear for you

 

[justbyfaith]

I am sorry, I just can not continue with this.

If you think this, I fear for you

It's really too bad, because I qualified my statements later.

There is no reason to fear for me; but if that is what is in your heart, by all means pray.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's really too bad, because I qualified my statements later.

Does not mean you were right

There is no reason to fear for me; but if that is what is in your heart, by all means pray.

You can believe this if you want. It does not remove my fear

 

[justbyfaith]

It does not remove my fear

Then by all means pray for me. Bc I'm praying for you.

Does not mean you were right

Doesn't make me wrong either.