Grace is NOT unmerited favor!

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What definition of grace to you live by?

  • Unmerited favor that covers up sin so God can't see it.

    Votes: 3 14.3%
  • The power of God to partake of the divine nature?

    Votes: 8 38.1%
  • Other

    Votes: 10 47.6%

  • Total voters
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justbyfaith

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In Romans 7:24 is shown that the carnal believer who is beginning to have some type of regeneration will be discontented with his state of sinfulness.

Romans 7:14-25 speaks of what Paul calls "the law of sin and death" in Romans 8:2.

It is clear from Romans 8:2 that it is possible to be delivered from the law of sin and death; and that this is accomplished because of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
 
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justbyfaith

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In Romans 7:14, Paul begins to set forth his own life as an example of carnality in order to define carnality.

As he writes in 1 Corinthians 9:22, he is becoming as the weak in order that he might gain the weak.

He is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION, therefore, in Romans 7:14-25 to define the man that is carnal;

And it is certain that there are both carnal and spiritual Christians according to Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3;

While it should be absolutely clear that Paul himself is certainly not carnal, because he is a penner of holy scripture; and 2 Peter 1:21 (kjv) makes it clear that such men as these are holy men of God.

2Pe 1:21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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Louis Berkof;
1. SPIRITUAL DEATH. There is a profound truth in the saying of Augustine that sin is also the punishment of sin. This means that the sinful state and condition in which man is born by nature form part of the penalty of sin. They are, it is true, the immediate consequences of sin, but they are also a part of the threatened penalty. Sin separates man from God, and that means death, for it is only in communion with the living God that man can truly live. In the state of death, which resulted from the entrance of sin into the world, we are burdened with the guilt of sin, a guilt that can only be removed by the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. We are therefore under obligation to bear the sufferings that result from transgression of the law. The natural man carries the sense of the liability to punishment with him wherever he goes. Conscience is a constant reminder of his guilt, and the fear of punishment often fills the heart. Spiritual death means not only guilt, but also pollution. Sin is always a corrupting influence in life, and this is a part of our death. We are by nature not only unrighteous in the sight of God, but also unholy. And this unholiness manifests itself in our thoughts, in our words, and in our deeds. It is always active within us like a poisoned fountain polluting the streams of life. And if it were not for the restraining influence of the common grace of God, it would render social life entirely impossible.
 

Anthony D'Arienzo

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In Romans 7:14, Paul begins to set forth his own life as an example of carnality in order to define carnality.

As he writes in 1 Corinthians 9:22, he is becoming as the weak in order that he might gain the weak.

He is using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION, therefore, in Romans 7:14-25 to define the man that is carnal;

And it is certain that there are both carnal and spiritual Christians according to Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3;

While it should be absolutely clear that Paul himself is certainly not carnal, because he is a penner of holy scripture; and 2 Peter 1:21 (kjv) makes it clear that such men as these are holy men of God.

2Pe 1:21, For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
This is not correct. There is no such thing as a "carnal christian"
 

justbyfaith

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Louis Berkof;
1. SPIRITUAL DEATH. There is a profound truth in the saying of Augustine that sin is also the punishment of sin. This means that the sinful state and condition in which man is born by nature form part of the penalty of sin. They are, it is true, the immediate consequences of sin, but they are also a part of the threatened penalty. Sin separates man from God, and that means death, for it is only in communion with the living God that man can truly live. In the state of death, which resulted from the entrance of sin into the world, we are burdened with the guilt of sin, a guilt that can only be removed by the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. We are therefore under obligation to bear the sufferings that result from transgression of the law. The natural man carries the sense of the liability to punishment with him wherever he goes. Conscience is a constant reminder of his guilt, and the fear of punishment often fills the heart. Spiritual death means not only guilt, but also pollution. Sin is always a corrupting influence in life, and this is a part of our death. We are by nature not only unrighteous in the sight of God, but also unholy. And this unholiness manifests itself in our thoughts, in our words, and in our deeds. It is always active within us like a poisoned fountain polluting the streams of life. And if it were not for the restraining influence of the common grace of God, it would render social life entirely impossible.


Actually, we were by nature children of wrath. Ephesians 2:3.
 
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justbyfaith

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This is not correct. There is no such thing as a "carnal christian"
Paul identifies himself as a carnal Christian in Romans 7:14, and speaks of two types of believer in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3...the carnal and the spiritual.

Who is your favorite Bible teacher? It sounds like you've been brainwashed by someone in particular. I just can't remember his name right now...
 

CharismaticLady

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11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

WE WILL NOT SIN IN HEAVEN BECAUSE WE WILL HAVE A GLORIFIED BODY. You do not have a glorified body now, you sin every day

Silly, our body has nothing to do with our spirit, our nature. If you never overcame sin in this life, and died a sinner, that is what you will remain ... in hell.
 

CharismaticLady

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Paul identifies himself as a carnal Christian in Romans 7:14, and speaks of two types of believer in 1 Corinthians 3:1-3...the carnal and the spiritual.

Who is your favorite Bible teacher? It sounds like you've been brainwashed by someone in particular. I just can't remember his name right now...

Paul is not identifying himself presently as a carnal Christian in Romans 7:14, because that struggle he speaks of is before Christ, not after. They are still under the Law of Moses.
 

CharismaticLady

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PT5;
One more quotation: this time from a sermon by the late C. H. Spurgeon. Said the prince of preachers, “There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ’s Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all—to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all—to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to gloiy only in the Lord.”

Other testimonies from the lips and pens of men equally pious and eminent might be given, but sufficient have been quoted to show what cause the saints of all ages have had for making their own these words, “O wretched man that I am.” A few words now on the closing verse of Romans 7.

“Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” “Who shall deliver me?” This is not the language of despair, but of earnest desire for help from without and above himself. That from which the apostle desired to be delivered is termed “the body of this death.” This is a figurative expression for the carnal nature is termed “the body of sin,” and as having “members.” (Rom. 7:23) We therefore take the apostle’s meaning to be, Who shall deliver me from this deadly and noxious burden—my sinful self!

In the next verse the apostle answers his question, “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” It should be obvious to any impartial mind that this looks forward to the future. His question was, “Who shall deliver me?” His answer is, Jesus Christ will. How this exposes the error of those who teach a present “deliverance” from the carnal nature by the power of the Holy Spirit. In His answer, the apostle says nothing about the Holy Spirit; instead, he mentions only “Jesus Christ our Lord.” It is not by the present work of the Spirit in us that Christians will be delivered “from this body of death,” but by the yet future coming of the Lord Jesus Christ for us. It is then that this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption shall put on incorruption.

Spurgeon was a Calvinist Baptist
 

CharismaticLady

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You have still completely missed the point. Do you think that all those who have being to heaven seeing Christ even God and come back where perfect, in Christ God sees no sin. That is the bit you missed trying to perfect yourself afraid that if you are not perfect you wont get in, who do you think God is.. Like a man????

As I recall you believe that the blood of Jesus covers our sin while it remains, and while we still commit sin, and because of the blood, the Father is blind to it. Right or wrong?
 

CharismaticLady

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← The False Doctrine of SINLESS PERFECTION / Bob L. Ross
THE UNLEARNED MEN: THE TRUE GENEAOLGY & GENESIS OF KJV ONLY | By Doug Kutilek →
The Christian in Romans 7 / Arthur W. Pink (1886-1952)
Posted on September 9, 2010 by Timothy Oliver
In this chapter the apostle does two things:

First, he shows what is not and what is the Law’s relation to the believer—judicially, the believer is emancipated from the curse or penalty of the Law (7:1-6); morally, the believer is under bonds to obey the Law (vv. 22, 25). Secondly, he guards against a false inference being drawn from what he had taught in chapter 6. In 6:1-11 he sets forth the believer’s identification with Christ as “dead to sin.” (vv. 2, 7, etc.) Then, from v. 11 onwards, he shows the effect this truth should have upon the believer’s walk. In chapter 7 he follows the same order of thought. In 7:1-6 he treats of the believer’s identification with Christ as “dead to the law” (see vv. 4, 6). Then, from v. 7 onwards he describes the experiences of the Christian. Thus the first half of Rom. 6 and the first half of Rom. 7 deal with the believer’s standing, whereas the second half of each chapter treats of the believer’s state; but with this difference: the second half of Rom. 6 reveals what our state ought to be, whereas the second half of Rom. 7 (vv. 13-25) shows what our state actually is.

The controversy which has raged over Rom. 7 is largely the fruitage of the Perfectionism of Wesley and his followers. That brethren, whom we have cause to respect, should have adopted this error in a modified form, only shows how widespread today is the spirit of Laodiceanism. To talk of “getting Out of Rom. 7 into Rom. 8” is excuseless folly. Rom. 7 and both apply with undiminished force and pertinence to every believer on earth today. The second half of Rom. 7 describes the conflict of the two natures in the child of God: it simply sets forth in detail what is summarized in Gal. 5:17. Rom. 7:14, 15, 18, 19, 21 are now true of evely believer on earth. Every Christian falls far, far short of the standard set before him—we mean God’s standard, not that of the so-called “victorious life” teachers. If any Christian reader is read to say that Rom. 7:19 does not describe his life, we say in all kindness, that he is sadly deceived. We do not mean by this that every Christian breaks the laws of men, or that he is an overt transgressor of the laws of God. But we do mean that his life is far, far below the level of the life our Savior lived here on earth. We do mean that there is much of “the flesh” still evident in every Christian—not the least in those who make such loud boastings of their spiritual attainments. We do mean that every Christian has urgent need to daily pray for the forgiveness of his daily sins (Luke 11:4), for “in many things we all stumble” (James 3:2, R. V.).

In what follows we shall confine ourselves to the last two verses of Rom. 7, in which we read, “0 wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with flesh the law of sin.” (vv.24, 25)

This is the language of a regenerate soul, and it sums up the contents of the verses immediately preceding. The unregenerate man is wretched indeed, but he is a stranger to the “wretchedness” here expressed, for he knows nothing of the experience which evokes this wail. The whole context is devoted to a description of the conflict between the two natures in the child of God. “I delight in the law of God after the inward man” (v. 22), is true of none but born-again persons. But the one thus “delighting” discovers “another law in his members.” This reference must not be limited to his physical members, but is to be understood as including all the various parts of his carnal personality. This “other law” is also at work in the memory, the imagination, the will, the heart, etc.

Oh my!!! The blind leading the blind
 

Randy Kluth

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Yes, I agree. They are deeper laws than the Law of Moses which were outside actions mainly, with one inside commandment that caused the struggle, #10.

The laws of Jesus are mainly two. 1 John 3:23 Those are the "commandments" that John always refers to even in Revelation.



I understand perfectly. The Law couldn't be kept because of sin in our nature. The laws of Jesus are easily kept by His power in us. Jesus freed us from sin in our nature. That is the result of being born again of the Spirit.

It seems we mostly agree. I would only say that I do think people who are not "born again" can still obey God and do good. It's just that good works does not save anyone, unless they are done as evidence that they've been born again.

I believe that what really saves people is their choice to be born again, to put on a new nature created after the image of Christ. Unless we choose to give ourselves completely over to this new nature, we are not fully converted, and do not merit eternal life.

It is, after all, our participation in Christ's own works that saves us, and not our own independent works. The nature of salvation is that we must choose Christ as our substitute. And we do this by forfeiting our own independent ways for the life of the Spirit. We are thus able to live in the spiritual life of Christ, and to have our sins eternally forgiven.
 

justbyfaith

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Paul is not identifying himself presently as a carnal Christian in Romans 7:14, because that struggle he speaks of is before Christ, not after. They are still under the Law of Moses.

Yes I agree with that.

and do not merit eternal life.

There is no one who truly merits eternal life except for Jesus Christ; and He took our sin penalty upon Himself and transferred His merits unto us.
 

mjrhealth

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As I recall you believe that the blood of Jesus covers our sin while it remains, and while we still commit sin, and because of the blood, the Father is blind to it. Right or wrong?
Pretty much, you should stop "fearing": and as Christ put it,

Mar_11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

You can pretend all you like as people keep telling me, God is not blind". While you live in this world in your flesh you will sin, but the bit you missed

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Trust Him you r salvation is in His righteousness not yours.
 
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CharismaticLady

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I believe that what really saves people is their choice to be born again, to put on a new nature created after the image of Christ. Unless we choose to give ourselves completely over to this new nature, we are not fully converted, and do not merit eternal life.

You've heard of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and I'm not speaking of the gifts, but the power of grace we receive to be dead to sin. Peter says we receive the Spirit when we truly repent and want to be truly freed from the sin nature that separates us from God. Acts of the Apostles 2:38. Receiving the Spirit is a gift from Jesus. It is not something that we can give ourselves. The baptism of the Spirit is what is meant by being born again. Yes, we must walk in it, but it is all Christ doing the work in us and through us from then on. The baptism of the Spirit is the seed of the Father in us. 1 John 3:9
 

CharismaticLady

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Yes I agree with that.



There is no one who truly merits eternal life except for Jesus Christ; and He took our sin penalty upon Himself and transferred His merits unto us.

I don't know about merits, but He gave us His Spirit so we can be truly free from sin, not just a cover-up as some believe. That is the seed of the Father 1 John 3:9
 

CharismaticLady

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Pretty much, you should stop "fearing": and as Christ put it,

Mar_11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

You can pretend all you like as people keep telling me, God is not blind". While you live in this world in your flesh you will sin, but the bit you missed

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Trust Him you r salvation is in His righteousness not yours.

I don't fear as I have no problem with sin. I've been given power over it and a new nature. I've been born again.

Condemning sin in the flesh is destroying sins power over our flesh, by giving us a new nature that is free from sin. Read it in context.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
 

mjrhealth

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Condemning sin in the flesh is destroying sins power over our flesh, by giving us a new nature that is free from sin. Read it in context.
You can quote the bible all you like cant change who you are. Sin has no power over us, to seperate us from God, and if you think stating that ,That gives us an excuse to sin", no! it gives us reason to trust Christ and all the good works He has done to save us, Grace seems to be hated by so many seem to find any reason they can to justify there own works.

2Co_12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

HEs happy we are happy, well most are.
 

CharismaticLady

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justify there own works

It not my own work from a carnal nature. It is God's works through the new nature He has given me. I cannot boast in myself, only in the Lord.

Known sin can and does separate us from God because that is within our old nature. Only outside forces cannot separate us from God. Romans 8:38-39
 
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