Grace is NOT unmerited favor!

[CharismaticLady]

This and the law of faith are one and the same; the terminology of both can be used to describe what I am talking about.



Actually, the scripture teaches the following:

1Jo 4:15, Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:4, For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:5, Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Where is repentance from sin? Where is obedience? Where is keeping the laws of Jesus?

 

[justbyfaith]

You have just declared that you have a condition by which you "merit" eternal life! I was saying that there are qualifications by which we obtain eternal life. Meeting these conditions is synonymous with "meriting." You have using "meriting" in the technical sense of paying for your own redemption. I specifically avoided saying this. This is called "bickering over words."

The merit by which we obtain eternal life is Christ's merits, which we obtain by faith. It is not any merit of our own.

I will contend for the form of sound words for as long as I am alive; for that is something that the Lord has called me to do (see 2 Timothy 1:13). It is those who contend for words other than what the Holy Spirit has given us specifically in the kjv who are in fact striving about words.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The merit by which we obtain eternal life is Christ's merits, which we obtain by faith. It is not any merit of our own.

I will contend for the form of sound words for as long as I am alive; for that is something that the Lord has called me to do (see 2 Timothy 1:13). It is those who contend for words other than what the Holy Spirit has given us specifically in the kjv who are in fact striving about words.

Merits, or imputed righteousness is from faith and obedience.

 

[justbyfaith]

Where is repentance from sin? Where is obedience? Where is keeping the laws of Jesus?

We are not redeemed through keeping the laws of Jesus; we are redeemed through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross.

If we have such a faith, we will be made into new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

If I am a dog or a swine, I will return to my vomit or go back to wallowing in the mud.

But if I am a sheep, I will detest mud and vomit and even if I were to be forced to be placed in such, I would run from the situation as soon as I get the chance. I also would never head towards it on my own.

In James the apostle talks about how a living faith will produce works. And what he is saying is that real faith will change your life. He is discounting the idea that a faith that does not change your life is even faith at all.

So then, real faith that Jesus is the Son of God will overcome the world; because God dwells in all who confess the same; and they also dwell in the Lord.

 

[CharismaticLady]

We are not redeemed through keeping the laws of Jesus; we are redeemed through faith in Jesus and what He did for us on the Cross.

If we have such a faith, we will be made into new creatures in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

That new creature is naturally obedient through his new nature and keeps the commandments of Jesus.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Let's run this by you as a test, to see how flexible you are in your understanding. Otherwise, I know if I use a word like "merit" there will just be this knee-jerk reaction from you, horrified that I'm preaching "justification by my own works."

Let me ask you if you can "merit" acquiring eternal life by exercising faith? And can you *fail* to "merit" eternal life by *not* exercising faith? What say you?

The unthinking Christian will just say, "No, of course we can't in any way *merit* eternal life." But "merit" is a synonymous term for "meeting the qualification for." We are indeed required to meet the qualifications for obtaining eternal life!

So the real concern is, what are the qualifications we must meet in order to obtain eternal life? And does this include doing good works, or obeying Christ?

I would argue that people are tripped up by language, but that language is very important so as to avoid misunderstandings. We can *never* say we *earn* eternal life by our own independent efforts and works. On the other hand, we can indeed say we must meet certain qualifications in order to obtain eternal life.

What are these qualifications? We are required to exercise faith in Christ to the degree we obtain a new nature. This enables us to live in him constantly, and to do good works, obeying his living word to our hearts.

In effect, this means we *must* do good works to prove our qualifications for eternal life. If we don't do good works on a regular basis, it in effect means we have not done what is necessary to obtain a new nature.

Who among us is going to deny what the Apostle John teaches here, and say it is not necessary in confirming that we've received eternal life?

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

So please notice that I'm not saying we must prove our good works and obedience in order to *earn* eternal life! Rather, it says here that we must *confirm our salvation* by doing good works and obedience consistent with having obtained a new nature from Christ. We must, in effect, *prove our Salvation!*

 

[justbyfaith]

Merits, or imputed righteousness is from faith and obedience.

No; imputed righteousness is from a living faith alone; and a living faith will produce obedience.

So then both obedience and imputed righteousness stem from a living and saving faith.

_________________________FAITH
________________________/_____\
______imputed righteousness____obedience

 

[CharismaticLady]

No; imputed righteousness is from a living faith alone; and a living faith will produce obedience.

So then both obedience and imputed righteousness stem from a living and saving faith.

FAITH
/ \
imputed righteousness obedience

I can agree with that, but if you don't say it, you can be leading someone astray.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let's run this by you as a test, to see how flexible you are in your understanding. Otherwise, I know if I use a word like "merit" there will just be this knee-jerk reaction from you, horrified that I'm preaching "justification by my own works."

Let me ask you if you can "merit" acquiring eternal life by exercising faith? And can you *fail* to "merit" eternal life by *not* exercising faith? What say you?

The unthinking Christian will just say, "No, of course we can't in any way *merit* eternal life." But "merit" is a synonymous term for "meeting the qualification for." We are indeed required to meet the qualifications for obtaining eternal life!

So the real concern is, what are the qualifications we must meet in order to obtain eternal life? And does this include doing good works, or obeying Christ?

I would argue that people are tripped up by language, but that language is very important so as to avoid misunderstandings. We can *never* say we *earn* eternal life by our own independent efforts and works. On the other hand, we can indeed say we must meet certain qualifications in order to obtain eternal life.

What are these qualifications? We are required to exercise faith in Christ to the degree we obtain a new nature. This enables us to live in him constantly, and to do good works, obeying his living word to our hearts.

In effect, this means we *must* do good works to prove our qualifications for eternal life. If we don't do good works on a regular basis, it in effect means we have not done what is necessary to obtain a new nature.

Who among us is going to deny what the Apostle John teaches here, and say it is not necessary in confirming that we've received eternal life?

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

So please notice that I'm not saying we must prove our good works and obedience in order to *earn* eternal life! Rather, it says here that we must *confirm our salvation* by doing good works and obedience consistent with having obtained a new nature from Christ. We must, in effect, *prove our Salvation!*

It seems to me that you are just looking for permission to say later that we merit eternal life; and in such a way that those who are initiated will accept what you are saying one way, while the uninitiated will accept it differently.

I will say therefore that faith does not merit eternal life; rather it obtains the merits of Jesus Christ so that we may have eternal life.

 

[justbyfaith]

I can agree with that, but if you don't say it, you can be leading someone astray.

Everything will be said in its proper time.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Everything will be said in its proper time.

Unless this is just a game of wits to you, don't leave anything unsaid. There are baby Christians out there that need the truth NOW. These are end times.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It seems to me that you are just looking for permission to say later that we merit eternal life; and in such a way that those who are initiated will accept what you are saying one way, while the uninitiated will accept it differently.

I will say therefore that faith does not merit eternal life; rather it obtains the merits of Jesus Christ so that we may have eternal life.

So-o-o, you're just not understanding the point. It is, for us here, a language problem. I think we *all* agree, in this little group, that we cannot *earn* our Salvation by doing good works--not even by obeying the commandments of Christ! We *agree on this!*

So the language problem arrived for me when someone disputed my belief by pointing out my use of the word "merit." Words can be tricky. Words mean what they mean *in context,* and not just by your own preferred use of the term, or regular use of the term.

Many Christians, when they hear the word "merit" go into "Justification" mode, not realizing that some, like myself, are using the word in a completely different context. When I say we must meet the qualifications for receiving eternal life, I'm saying that we *must* get our Salvation from Christ, because we cannot get it from ourselves alone. In other words, Christ is the exclusive source of our Salvation.

But we *must* meet the qualifications necessary in order to receive this exclusive Salvation from Christ. God has required of us that we put our faith in Christ as the exclusive source of our Salvation.

In this sense, and in this sense alone, I've used the word "meriting Salvation." It has nothing to do with Self-justification, nor with earning our Salvation by Works. Rather, it has only to do with meeting the qualifications necessary for receiving Christ's exclusive Salvation!

So where do Works come in? They are part of *proving that we've already received Salvation!* It is the part where we choose Christ's Salvation as the means of receiving a new nature capable of producing good works regularly.

All men can, I believe, do good. But only from Christ can we receive a completely new nature which can do good regularly.

All other men do good irregularly, and mix evil in with their good. A "new nature" implies an entirely new outlook, in this case referring to a Christian nature that is, by nature, good and always wanting to do good.

 

[CharismaticLady]

So-o-o, you're just not understanding the point. It is, for us here, a language problem. I think we *all* agree, in this little group, that we cannot *earn* our Salvation by doing good works--not even by obeying the commandments of Christ! We *agree on this!*

So the language problem arrived for me when someone disputed my belief by pointing out my use of the word "merit." Words can be tricky. Words mean what they mean *in context,* and not just by your own preferred use of the term, or regular use of the term.

Many Christians, when they hear the word "merit" go into "Justification" mode, not realizing that some, like myself, are using the word in a completely different context. When I say we must meet the qualifications for receiving eternal life, I'm saying that we *must* get our Salvation from Christ, because we cannot get it from ourselves alone. In other words, Christ is the exclusive source of our Salvation.

But we *must* meet the qualifications necessary in order to receive this exclusive Salvation from Christ. God has required of us that we put our faith in Christ as the exclusive source of our Salvation.

In this sense, and in this sense alone, I've used the word "meriting Salvation." It has nothing to do with Self-justification, nor with earning our Salvation by Works. Rather, it has only to do with meeting the qualifications necessary for receiving Christ's exclusive Salvation!

So where do Works come in? They are part of *proving that we've already received Salvation!* It is the part where we choose Christ's Salvation as the means of receiving a new nature capable of producing good works regularly.

All men can, I believe, do good. But only from Christ can we receive a completely new nature which can do good regularly.

All other men do good irregularly, and mix evil in with their good. A "new nature" implies an entirely new outlook, in this case referring to a Christian nature that is, by nature, good and always wanting to do good.

This is why we must explain as we go.

 

[justbyfaith]

In effect, this means we *must* do good works to prove our qualifications for eternal life.

This is false doctrine. For "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent."

If we don't do good works on a regular basis, it in effect means we have not done what is necessary to obtain a new nature.

Again, false doctrine. We obtain a new nature by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Works and practical righteousness stem from this faith; but the latter (works and practical righteousness) is not required to obtain salvation.

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

This is saying that if we have a genuine faith, we will have a changed life, that amounts to obedience; not that we are saved through our obedience.

So please notice that I'm not saying we must prove our good works and obedience in order to *earn* eternal life!

It seems to me that this is exactly what you were saying.

Rather, it says here that we must *confirm our salvation* by doing good works and obedience consistent with having obtained a new nature from Christ. We must, in effect, *prove our Salvation!*

Before the Lord Jesus Christ, we obtain salvation based on faith alone (Romans 4:1-8). But before man, we obtain glory by our works (Romans 4:2); even justification; which in James is defined as that which manifests salvation. Whereas in Romans the same word in English speaks of actual salvation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

When we choose to receive a new nature from Christ, we are, in effect, choosing to do good works--only we're choosing to do good works all the time.

But we are not receiving our Justification by doing good works. We are not obtaining Salvation by our good works. Rather, we are qualifying for Christ's exclusive Salvation by accepting it as our exclusive source of Salvation, and by choosing him as the source of our new nature, which does, by nature, good works.

So *in effect* we are choosing to do good works all the time in order to qualify for Salvation. But we only produce good works out of this new nature by electing to receive the new nature from Christ 1st!

 

[justbyfaith]

In this sense, and in this sense alone, I've used the word "meriting Salvation."

But I think that later you will use the same word; and the initiated will take it as you are saying it now; but the uninitiated will take it as it would be taken at face value. Thus you are providing for a cult mentality in which the initiated will take your words one way, while the uninitiated will take them another.

 

[justbyfaith]

When we choose to receive a new nature from Christ, we are, in effect, choosing to do good works--only we're choosing to do good works all the time.

But we are not receiving our Justification by doing good works. We are not obtaining Salvation by our good works. Rather, we are qualifying for Christ's exclusive Salvation by accepting it as our exclusive source of Salvation, and by choosing him as the source of our new nature, which does, by nature, good works.

So *in effect* we are choosing to do good works all the time in order to qualify for Salvation. But we only produce good works out of this new nature by electing to receive the new nature from Christ 1st!

We do *repent* in order to obtain salvation.

However, it is taking it too far to say that we are choosing to do good works all the time in order to qualify for salvation.

The reality is that we are qualified through faith alone in Jesus Christ and not by the works of the law.

Out of that faith stems good works; but the works themselves do not have any salvational value.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is false doctrine. For "This is the work of God, that you believe on Him whom He hath sent."

Boy are you hard-hearted! I just explained it in detail, and you indeed produce this knee-jerk reaction. I can't get through your thick hide!

I've told you I don't believe we can "earn" our Salvation! And you call this "false doctrine?"

Again, false doctrine. We obtain a new nature by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone. Works and practical righteousness stem from this faith; but the latter (works and practical righteousness) is not required to obtain salvation.

No, I quoted it from 1 John 2, and you are therefore calling the Apostle John a "false teacher"--a teacher of "false doctrine."

You are using doctrine without being able to put it into your own words. And when others put it into their own words, you call it "false doctrine" because you only understand doctrine by the specific verbiage used in the dogma.

This is saying that if we have a genuine faith, we will have a changed life, that amounts to obedience; not that we are saved through our obedience.

Your reading comprehension is lacking. I informed this group repeatedly that I believe in Salvation by *Christ alone!* You simply cannot understand doctrine explained in one's own words!

It seems to me that this is exactly what you were saying.

Before the Lord Jesus Christ, we obtain salvation based on faith alone (Romans 4:1-8). But before man, we obtain glory by our works (Romans 4:2); even justification; which in James is defined as that which manifests salvation. Whereas in Romans the same word in English speaks of actual salvation.

Not really accurate as a formula. We obtain both Salvation and Glory by opting for Christ as the basis for our works. In effect we are choosing to do good works through the new nature that he alone can give us.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your reading comprehension is lacking. I informed this group repeatedly that I believe in Salvation by *Christ alone!* You simply cannot understand doctrine explained in one's own words!

No, you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand you say that salvation is by works, and then turn around and say that you are not in fact teaching that, as if to get the Ephesians off of your back.

Not really accurate as a formula. We obtain both Salvation and Glory by opting for Christ as the basis for our works. In effect we are choosing to do good works through the new nature that he alone can give us.

In Romans 4:1-8 we are justified by faith alone apart from works.

Therefore James 2 is interpreted by Romans 4:2. Justification before man is often by works; but before the Lord, who sees what is invisible, looking on the heart rather than the outward appearance, faith alone is what qualifies a man to be saved.

A man may indeed have *justifying* works and not be saved; for the term justify in James refers to righteousness before man whereas in Romans 4:1-8 justification is before the Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

No, I quoted it from 1 John 2, and you are therefore calling the Apostle John a "false teacher"--a teacher of "false doctrine."

This is what I said about 1 John 2; which is the accurate interpretation.

This is saying that if we have a genuine faith, we will have a changed life, that amounts to obedience; not that we are saved through our obedience.