intentional sins?

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Nancy

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intentional sins?
OP ^

OT - is about "committing" a known act of Sin, "according to" Mosaic Law.
(The "ACTS" are Revealed in the Written Mosaic Law).

NT - is about "committing" a known act of Sin, "according to" a "Better Testament", Revealed By The Word of God Himself, Jesus the Christ. (The "ACT" is Revealed in Writing of the New Testament.)

OT - NT...the Same hinge on:
Belief in God; is Righteous.
Disbelief in the Lord God Almighty; is a Sin.

Under the Mosaic Law:
Men can Sin Against God AND men, and be subject to Penalty, Under Mosaic Law.
Men can Sin Against men, and ARE subject to penalty.
(OT- men could forgive men of Sin)

Under Offered Grace:
Men can Sin Against God AND become Forgiven, BY God.
Men can "Trespass" Against men, maybe be forgiven by men, maybe be subject to Civil penalty.
Jesus Taught "A Man Who has Accepted His Offer of Grace"...
Is Forgiven of Sin Against God.
And:
Should also Forgive men who have "Trespassed" Against Them.
(Intentionally or unintentionally).
(NT- Sin is Against God, and ONLY God Forgives Sin)


Glory to God,
Taken

Hello @Taken
When you say: "Under Offered Grace: Men can Sin Against God AND become Forgiven, BY God." Are you including intentional sins here?
Some read the below verse as meaning that if we do intentionally sin after tasting His goodness that, you are no longer saved as you trample the Grace of God.
My own take on this particular scripture is that there is no other means to get right with God, other than Christ. IOW, Christs sacrifice is the only way to redemption, even if we screw up and make a bad choice to sin. Which, hopefully nobody here actually practices!
In Him!
nancy

Hebrews 10:26
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left"
 

CharismaticLady

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Just so you know, I am a natural skeptic! Lol.

Even after you read my testimony? I was raised a Cessationist, but had no reason why except for what I was taught, like one of my Christian college professors said that those who speak in tongues are speaking blasphemy against God and don't realize it. So you can see the hurdles I had to overcome! LOL So I can relate. Just be open. And even after I realized that 1 Corinthians 13 wasn't speaking against tongues today, it still took 6 years before I was actually filled with the Spirit, and experience most of the biggest gifts myself. The only thing I haven't experienced is messages from God in tongues and interpretation (there are two kinds of tongues, I have one, but not the other). And I've tried to raise the dead (animal) but haven't.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Just so you know, I am a natural skeptic! Lol.

How does your skepticism manifest? Do you believe God can't, or won't.

What got me over the problem of unbelief, i.e., skepticism, Psalms 1:1, was choosing to believe like a child, until God sets me straight. I can hear His voice, so I know He will either confirm or tell me the Truth. So now call be gullible, but I believe God is more pleased with my belief that He can do anything, than to choose unbelief and be wrong and not obtain EVERYTHING He has for me. God is in control of what I end up believing without a shadow of a doubt.
 
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Taken

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Hello @Taken
When you say: "Under Offered Grace: Men can Sin Against God AND become Forgiven, BY God." Are you including intentional sins here?


No. AND Why;
Grace is an Offering.
An Individual who has ACCEPTED Gods Grace, is an Individual Who has Accepted His Forgiveness of ALL Sin attributed to Them:
* being Naturally Born in Sin;
* having corrupted their soul within their Corrupted Flesh;
* having trusted their natural Truth (Natural spirit), above Gods Spirit, (Supernatural Gods Spirit of Truth).
Accepting Gods Offer of Grace...
Goes beyond Gods Forgiveness:
It comes Also With, His Power within a man TO Keep a man Forever Free from Sin...or otherwise Free From the man Ever Again Being "ABLE", to Disbelieve/Stand Against The Lord God Almighty.

Jesus' Highlighting messages were about "Truly heartfully Believing" IN Jesus and the One who sent Him"
"Without Heartful Belief"...forgiveness and Conversion and promises, forever life, and Forever With God IS NOT possible.

Some read the below verse as meaning that if we do intentionally sin after "tasting His goodness" that, you are no longer saved as you trample the Grace of God.

^ That aspect I view as: Tasting compared to Eating.

Taste a steak...or Eat a steak
Taste a wine...or Drink the wine

It's a matter more of the difference between:
An Introduction and Knowing the subject.

Hearing is a beginning (like Tasting)...Learning surpasses the Beginning...and Knowing surpasses the Learning...and Trusting surpasses the Knowing...and Commitment surpasses the Trusting.

Thousands upon thousands of people have "heard"...(Tasted) of God, of Jesus the Christ...some may have "dabbled"...
Learned "bits" and "pieces"...but Never go beyond "tasting" and result in "EATING" the Word of God.

Every "small taste" of the Word of God:
Is a person receiving "Enlightment"...and a "small measure" of a gift of Faith from God.

A person who "continues" receiving the Word of God..."continues" receiving measures of increased Faith from God.

A person who STOPS Believing and receiving the Word of God...STOPS receiving Faith from God...
* They are called having "fallen from Faith".

Having "fallen From Faith" APPLIES TO:
Men who Have made No Heartful Commit to God, nor have partaken in Receiving His Holy Spirit.

A man WHO truly has received the Holy Spirit of God...Can NOT ever Again Stand Against The Lord God in DISBELIEF.

(They would have been better off, to have Never, heard, tasted, the Word of God to begin with. They would Not have been accountable for having Never heard...but Are accountable for having heard...and then Rejected/ Stood Against The Lord ... which has detrimental consequences.)

My own take on this particular scripture is that there is no other means to get right with God, other than Christ. IOW, Christs sacrifice is the only way to redemption,

Agree. Because as Above...we are Not accountable for what is Not Revealed...but ARE accountable for that which IS Revealed.

even if we screw up and make a bad choice to sin.

To this, I disagree.
I believe Sin is Disbelief In the Lord God.
I believe Sin is Also, the commission of Standing Against God and Supporting or Standing with those who Stand Against The Lord God.

I do not believe ANY person who is Baptized with the Holy Spirit (has the Holy Spirit within them) Can commit Sin.

People certainly Can and Do practice intentional TRESPASSES against men.
As well men regularly find themselves in situations of unintentional Trespasses Against men...which is to be settled among men...or by Civil Law if men elect to do so....and has nothing to do with Sinning Against God.

IOW- If I Kick you, my Trespass is Against you. I don't run to ask God to forgive me...I run to you and Ask You for forgiveness for my Trespass...(not God)



Hebrews 10:26
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left"

After having received Knowledge of the Truth.
Agree.

We begin in Disbelief.
Once / (after) we hear/receive the Truth...
We can't "unhear" / "unreceive" the Truth.
Remaining in Disbelief (sin)...is our choice,
And
The message is: there is Nothing Else "other than the Truth" (who IS Jesus), "that is" a Worthy or Acceptable Sacrifice.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Nancy

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Even after you read my testimony? I was raised a Cessationist, but had no reason why except for what I was taught, like one of my Christian college professors said that those who speak in tongues are speaking blasphemy against God and don't realize it. So you can see the hurdles I had to overcome! LOL So I can relate. Just be open. And even after I realized that 1 Corinthians 13 wasn't speaking against tongues today, it still took 6 years before I was actually filled with the Spirit, and experience most of the biggest gifts myself. The only thing I haven't experienced is messages from God in tongues and interpretation (there are two kinds of tongues, I have one, but not the other). And I've tried to raise the dead (animal) but haven't.

Not saying that your testimony is not awesome! I am just a skeptic by nature in certain areas. Working on that, lol.
So, the dead animal is the interp. of tongues...? If so, I can most certainly see this gift as edifying the whole Church. :)

I will just have to jump (haha) over those same hurdles one day, and hope I recognize when He tells me.

The dead animal...was the coon, or the interp??
 

Nancy

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No. AND Why;
Grace is an Offering.
An Individual who has ACCEPTED Gods Grace, is an Individual Who has Accepted His Forgiveness of ALL Sin attributed to Them:
* being Naturally Born in Sin;
* having corrupted their soul within their Corrupted Flesh;
* having trusted their natural Truth (Natural spirit), above Gods Spirit, (Supernatural Gods Spirit of Truth).
Accepting Gods Offer of Grace...
Goes beyond Gods Forgiveness:
It comes Also With, His Power within a man TO Keep a man Forever Free from Sin...or otherwise Free From the man Ever Again Being "ABLE", to Disbelieve/Stand Against The Lord God Almighty.

Jesus' Highlighting messages were about "Truly heartfully Believing" IN Jesus and the One who sent Him"
"Without Heartful Belief"...forgiveness and Conversion and promises, forever life, and Forever With God IS NOT possible.



^ That aspect I view as: Tasting compared to Eating.

Taste a steak...or Eat a steak
Taste a wine...or Drink the wine

It's a matter more of the difference between:
An Introduction and Knowing the subject.

Hearing is a beginning (like Tasting)...Learning surpasses the Beginning...and Knowing surpasses the Learning...and Trusting surpasses the Knowing...and Commitment surpasses the Trusting.

Thousands upon thousands of people have "heard"...(Tasted) of God, of Jesus the Christ...some may have "dabbled"...
Learned "bits" and "pieces"...but Never go beyond "tasting" and result in "EATING" the Word of God.

Every "small taste" of the Word of God:
Is a person receiving "Enlightment"...and a "small measure" of a gift of Faith from God.

A person who "continues" receiving the Word of God..."continues" receiving measures of increased Faith from God.

A person who STOPS Believing and receiving the Word of God...STOPS receiving Faith from God...
* They are called having "fallen from Faith".

Having "fallen From Faith" APPLIES TO:
Men who Have made No Heartful Commit to God, nor have partaken in Receiving His Holy Spirit.

A man WHO truly has received the Holy Spirit of God...Can NOT ever Again Stand Against The Lord God in DISBELIEF.

(They would have been better off, to have Never, heard, tasted, the Word of God to begin with. They would Not have been accountable for having Never heard...but Are accountable for having heard...and then Rejected/ Stood Against The Lord ... which has detrimental consequences.)



Agree. Because as Above...we are Not accountable for what is Not Revealed...but ARE accountable for that which IS Revealed.



To this, I disagree.
I believe Sin is Disbelief In the Lord God.
I believe Sin is Also, the commission of Standing Against God and Supporting or Standing with those who Stand Against The Lord God.

I do not believe ANY person who is Baptized with the Holy Spirit (has the Holy Spirit within them) Can commit Sin.

People certainly Can and Do practice intentional TRESPASSES against men.
As well men regularly find themselves in situations of unintentional Trespasses Against men...which is to be settled among men...or by Civil Law if men elect to do so....and has nothing to do with Sinning Against God.

IOW- If I Kick you, my Trespass is Against you. I don't run to ask God to forgive me...I run to you and Ask You for forgiveness for my Trespass...(not God)





After having received Knowledge of the Truth.
Agree.

We begin in Disbelief.
Once / (after) we hear/receive the Truth...
We can't "unhear" / "unreceive" the Truth.
Remaining in Disbelief (sin)...is our choice,
And
The message is: there is Nothing Else "other than the Truth" (who IS Jesus), "that is" a Worthy or Acceptable Sacrifice.

Glory to God,
Taken

I do agree with all you say except...is not only God able to forgive sin? Because all sin is against Him, ultimately? I'm starting to see the difference between , trespasses and sin. Been struggling with this subject for some time now. Of course, I can get every kind of definition of this through many sources but...still trying to grasp the whole thing. Too much in my pea brain right now but, good post :)
 

Nancy

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How does your skepticism manifest? Do you believe God can't, or won't.

What got me over the problem of unbelief, i.e., skepticism, Psalms 1:1, was choosing to believe like a child, until God sets me straight. I can hear His voice, so I know He will either confirm or tell me the Truth. So now call be gullible, but I believe God is more pleased with my belief that He can do anything, than to choose unbelief and be wrong and not obtain EVERYTHING He has for me. God is in control of what I end up believing without a shadow of a doubt.

Oh gosh no!!! I believe God can and does whatever He chooses to do and, I think He perhaps, knows I might not be ready for gifts like that.
I think the skepticism comes from my "new beginnings" when I was told so many times that I just did not have the faith. I did get past that but, I will NEVER again allow anyone to say that to me ever again. My faith has grown exponentially over the last 6 years alone. As you know sister, I'm no scholar and simply want to know what God has for me to do. Just have to get my mind to SHUT UP ALREADY!!!! Hahaha. Seriously though, that is key I feel...one of my brothers has the same issue. Even though I DO have His peace and worry for nothing, it's hard for him and I to settle enough to hear His voice.
We have both heard (not vocally) directions from Him but, it should be on a regular basis and, this is what needs to be tackled with Jesus help.
In Him!
nancy
 

CharismaticLady

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The dead animal...was the coon, or the interp??

Sorry for the confusion! LOL The dead animal had nothing to do with tongues. Just a different gift done by Jesus and the apostles, and some people I know. As for myself, I tried that when I was a child, long before I was Spirit-filled. LOL
 
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CharismaticLady

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Oh gosh no!!! I believe God can and does whatever He chooses to do and, I think He perhaps, knows I might not be ready for gifts like that.
I think the skepticism comes from my "new beginnings" when I was told so many times that I just did not have the faith. I did get past that but, I will NEVER again allow anyone to say that to me ever again. My faith has grown exponentially over the last 6 years alone. As you know sister, I'm no scholar and simply want to know what God has for me to do. Just have to get my mind to SHUT UP ALREADY!!!! Hahaha. Seriously though, that is key I feel...one of my brothers has the same issue. Even though I DO have His peace and worry for nothing, it's hard for him and I to settle enough to hear His voice.
We have both heard (not vocally) directions from Him but, it should be on a regular basis and, this is what needs to be tackled with Jesus help.
In Him!
nancy

Get James 1:5 in your faith bank, and when you are reading the Word and come across a verse or passage you need wisdom on, ask Him, and without wavering, EXPECT an answer, and then just listen. Once you have the first answer, your faith will explode, and you know that He will faithfully do it again and again. I've done it for a few years so the answer comes immediately.
 
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Nancy

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Sorry for the confusion! LOL The dead animal had nothing to do with tongues. Just a different gift done by Jesus and the apostles, and some people I know. As for myself, I tried that when I was a child, long before I was Spirit-filled. LOL

Ahahaha, think I would have been too scared to do that as a kid. :D
 

Taken

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I do agree with all you say except...is not only God able to forgive sin? Because all sin is against Him, ultimately?

A couple of things:
Under OT, men who Trespassed Against men, was called a Sin, and involved the church Appointed Clerics to determine the guilt and consequence, according to the OT Law.
God Established the Law:
Forwarded the Law to Moses:
Moses revealed the Law to the People:
The people Agreed to Obey.
Moses spoke the Law, scribes Wrote, ...Recorders Transcribed the Law to Scrolls.
Men read from the Scrolls, to men gathered
...on the Sabbath.
Men inturn taught their wives at home.
Wives and Husbands taught their children
...at home.

God Appointed Aaron, (brother of Moses), ...Cleric/ Priest ( and Appointed a succession line of
...Clerics to be Aaron's sons ).
It was Aaron's duty to hear disputes between
... men, determine guilt according to the Law,
... observe the settling of the matter (paying
... for the Trespass.)

Aaron did not forgive their Trespass/ called Sin, nor send the culpert off to pray to another human. (and later that succession of Clerics/ Priests was Established with the Tribe of Levi)

There were set times a man could go to the Temple, take their "Sin Offering" to the Temple, (a pure animal), it be slaughtered, its blood (life), on the alter of God, be acceptable for God to Forgive All sins they had or committed that year.

Point being/ the Trespasses (called Sins) , were settled between men.
No man was forgiving men "For" anything, Against God.

Marke 2:
[7] Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Luke 5:
[21] And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Enter Jesus on Earth.
He is Teaching Jews (under the law), a new way, for permanent (not yearly) forgiveness From God....For Sin Against God....via Jesus' "offered" pure Blood (of His life).

Concerning men against men...the Hebrews were told according to the Law...and Jews hearing Jesus..asked Jesus, what about man Against man "sin"?

Ex 22:
[9] For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

Jews calling man Against man Trespass "a sin", was How it was Under the Law, taught to Them. Jesus simply said, when a brother has come to you for forgiveness, to forgive the other, for every time a brother comes to you for forgiveness.

Jesus didn't need to explain to a Jew under the Law, that Forgiveness among men were for Trespasses, not for forgiveness of Sin Against God. THEY had 4,000 years of teaching, Forgiveness of Sin Against God, was By God , through "their" Sin Offering of a pure Animals Blood, on the alter of God, in the Temple.

Before Jesus Offered His pure Blood for Forgiveness of Sin Against God...He taught the Jews what that meant for them...and ultimately Gentiles...who Accept His Offering.

It was a complete Flip...
From: a man Offering animal blood, for temporary forgiveness of Sin Against God;
To: God Offering Jesus' blood for a permanent Forgiveness of Sin Against God.

What did not change:
Is Trespasses Between Men, while no longer broadly being "called" Sin; the Forgiveness Between men, was still a prominate issue. And Forgiveness between men FOR Trespasses still necessary.

(Trespasses between men was still going to occur...intentionally and unintentionally)

First, was the highlighted importance of Being forgiven By God of Sin Against God, (by a man accepting GODS OFFER, to settle that matter)
It was the Trespasses of men Against men Jesus focused on thereafter.
It is hard for an individual to Forgive someone who had (wronged them...lied to them, cheated on or toward them, stole from them, hurt them....Trespassed Against Them).

Jesus' teaching is "understanding" that IS hard..."However"...the Good News IS...a Converted man...once and forever HAS the "Power of God WITHIN the man to Overcome," (to Forgive) the the anger, hurt, Feelings of being lied to, cheated, stolen from, hurt etc....Against men.

He replenishes, He provides Comforts, He restores, He takes you down the path that Leads to Absolute glorious perfection.
Because: a Converted man is Standing With God, and God (ultimate Power) is Standing With that man.

So men who Say: ya sure, I believe, I've accepted Gods Offer, to become Born Again from Gods Seed....but oops, I STILL "Sin", (but, try really hard not to, you know like um, to NOT make a "habit" of Sinning...Against God?)

A man who has been Forgiven of God, for Sin Against God, IS Forgiven of all Sin Against God, and BY the Indwelling Power of God, God within a man cannot Stand "Against" Himself.

Jesus taught: How to become forgiven of Sin Against God...
And How to handle Trespasses men make Against men.

Matt 6:
  1. [14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
  2. [15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matt.18
  1. [15] Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
NOTICE ^ ...Jesus is not sending them to the Priests? Jesus is Sending a Trespasser TO the man, WHOM the man Trespassed Against.

Matt 18:
[35] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

If you Observe one person claiming another has Sinned against them...say for example; "lying"...

According to "What Law", is it a Sin for one man (knowingly or unknowingly) to Lie to an other man?

And if the accusing man, demands an apology, wouldn't the Apology be FOR "an Accused Sin?

And What? the Accuser is then being asked to Forgive the Accused man of a SIN?

What Law, authorized men to forgive Sin?

OT Law?
NT Law?

Either a man is Under OT Law, or he isn't.
Jesus did not destroy the Law, He Fulfilled it.
The matter turns to men, to choose, to Believe Jesus Fulfilled the Law, or Not.

How does a man Remain Under the Law, if he was never Under the Law to begin with BEING Under the Law?

So Again, what Law Authorizes Anyone to Forgive Sin....but God Himself?

And "IF" God has Forgiven a Man of Sin Against God ... His eternal Light is within the man...that God Himself can See no SiN IN the man. God thus can remember the man's Sin NO MORE. (Heb 10:17) And BY Gods Internal Power, the Man can SIN No More.(1 John 3:9)

How can a man thus Sin Against men?
Again, by what Law can men Forgive men of Sin?

Men, are not all knowing. Men Trespass Against men everyday. Intentional Trespasses, we call Deception. Unintentional Trespasses we call "accidents".
Jesus' teaching was to Forgive a brother who asks for forgiveness of his Trespass Against you, and if he be not a brother, but asks, you should forgive and have gained a brother.

It was the Pharisees that charged Jesus with Blasphemy...saying BECAUSE Jesus FORGAVE men of their Sin Against God...Jesus was Making Himself God....thus they knew Only God can Forgive Sin.
Men can forgive "other men" of Trespasses Against them.

Mark 14:
  1. [64] Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
John.10
  1. [33] The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Eph 2
[1] And you hath he quickened, (Born Again of Gods Seed) who were, (past tense) dead in trespasses (Against men) and sins; (Against God).

Continued:
 
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Taken

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Continued:

Nancy:

I'm starting to see the difference between , trespasses and sin. Been struggling with this subject for some time now. Of course, I can get every kind of definition of this through many sources but...still trying to grasp the whole thing. Too much in my pea brain right now but, good post :)

Sin is mentioned in the OT over 800 times, 300 + times in the NT...as a new "better Testament" (Heb 7:22) was being revealed.
Every act of a man Against God, Against man, Against obeying the Laws about when to gather, what to wear, when to separate, how to treat a tribesman and a foreigner, etc., were Accounted as Sins...(TO THEM/ OT) because they Were disobedience to a Law "they agreed" to Obey. (EX 19:8).

My Sin WAS (past tense) Against God.
God Forgave me ... Covered my Sins (Rom 4:7), with His Spirit (Light), Gave me His Seed, that my Natural spirit (Truth in my heart), received a new Truth, Gods Truth (Jesus, the Spirit of Gods Truth), (John 14:17), and Divided me from all others He is NOT With...(Sanctfied)...(Sanctifi-ED, past tense),
(1 Cor 1:2
(Heb 10:10
(Heb 10:14
And Justified...(Justifi-ED ) (past tense).
(1Cor 6:11

I am Accounted Dead (Crucified) to Sin, Free from Sin. Covered, sanctified, Justified...
Justified? Justified to what?
To be Redeemed, Taken, Claimed by Christ Jesus On the Day He calls Up to Him, His Church to be Gathered together for the Ceremony Marriage Supper Celebration, RISEN IN Glory, becoming face to face with my Lord God.
(Side note: The Church called and Gathered Up commonly called Rapture) occurs Before the Great Tribulation ...and "During" the Great Tribulation, God is sending Servants to Earth "to gather"; Guests/ Witnesses, for His Sons Marriage Supper. It's a parallel...to Jesus' teaching...
(Matt 22: 1-14)

BY the internal Power of God, a Converted man CAN NOT, Sin Against God...
Can Not: not Believe IN God,
Can Not: Speak Against God.
Can Not: Lie to God.
Can Not: Leave, Divorce, Cheat (with other gods), etc.
God has SEAL- ED that man To God Himself Forever.

Jesus called such a man... WHOLE.
(Dead Bodily, crucified...fulfilling their sentence of ONE Death...
Soul Restored...again GOOD, as God called man when Adam was Created Bodily and given Gods Breath of Life (soul).
A new heart, given a man (the old Natural Heart Circumcised:
(Ezek 18:31
(Ezek 26:36
(Rom 2:29
A new spirit in the new heart;
(Ezek 11:19
(Ezek 18:31
(Ezek 26:36
And Gods Power / Spirit / Christ / True Light
(1 Cor 1:24
( John 1: 7,8,9

BY any man Accepting Gods Offering, (Jesus the Christ)...that man becomes MADE WHOLLY, WHOLE, "perfect-ed" IN Christ.
(Matt: 9:22
(Matt 14:36 ...Made perfect-LY WHOLE.

Now SOME will Disagree... based ON "TWO" things...
1)
1 John 1:8
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
^ That IS TRUE.

2) Then the Accuser will state his Second basis:
"HE" speaks FOR YOU, claiming..."You are Claiming to BE "Sin-LESS".
^ THAT IS FALSE.

I have Never claimed to be "sin-Less"
It is Asinine to to make claims for another.
It is Asinine to ignore a person Saying they Sinned Against God...to then have words stuffed in their mouth, that they are Sin-less.
It is Asinine to ignore a person saying their "SIN" is FORGIVEN and Covered......
(Not saying their Sin Was "excised out of their body").

My Sin was Covered By Gods Light.
God no longer Sees or Remembers my Sin.
If another CAN SEE into my spirit in my Heart...( well ain't he special... cause God Never gave other men that power)

1 Cor 2:
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save / (except) the spirit of man which is in him?

One man can Only, Observe the Acts (fruit) of another man...to get knowledge of what is in a man's spirit in his heart.
(Does he praise God or stand Against God)...
(Does he Praise God openly, publically, but privately stand Against God)

The Pharisees, openly praised God...then murmured among themselves in Disbelief God Sent Jesus...and Jesus called them hypocrites and said Do what they Preach...Do Not Do what they Do.

The Lord God MAKING me WHOLE...and Free from Sin...Did NOT Make my FLESH Sin-Less...it MADE my body (Crucified) DEAD To Sin.
It Did Not make my Body PERFECT...
It MADE my WHOLENESS "In Him" Perfect.
He has Given ME Authority to Live "IN" His Risen Living Body.
He has Given me Promise TO Raise my Crucified Body, cleansed in His Blood, to Be RISEN "IN" glory... SINLESS.

^ That has NOT YET been Fulfilled.
Nor have I ever claimed it Was.
Even though Others at times have decided they can MAKE false claims "For me"...
I Know their ignorance and schemes have Not a basis IN Fact, and has Zero effect on my True Relationship with the Lord God and In Fact gives me knowledge of "their" fruit, (which is making false Testimony Against Others).

I am aware this has been lengthy...But then there is a huge difference between man's Carnal Understanding and Gods Understanding, which goes way beyond a man's Carnal Mind and logical understanding.
Everything hinges on Gods Offering...and the man Who accepts His Offering TO Understand Exactly what ALL God is accomplishing in a man WHO accepts His Offering.
God has Zero Wrath, Agony, Distance, Vengeance AGAINST a man WHOM, He has MADE WHOLE, BY and THROUGH and IN Christ the Lord Jesus

Glory to God,
God Bless,
Taken
 
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Nancy

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Continued:

Nancy:



Sin is mentioned in the OT over 800 times, 300 + times in the NT...as a new "better Testament" (Heb 7:22) was being revealed.
Every act of a man Against God, Against man, Against obeying the Laws about when to gather, what to wear, when to separate, how to treat a tribesman and a foreigner, etc., were Accounted as Sins...(TO THEM/ OT) because they Were disobedience to a Law "they agreed" to Obey. (EX 19:8).

My Sin WAS (past tense) Against God.
God Forgave me ... Covered my Sins (Rom 4:7), with His Spirit (Light), Gave me His Seed, that my Natural spirit (Truth in my heart), received a new Truth, Gods Truth (Jesus, the Spirit of Gods Truth), (John 14:17), and Divided me from all others He is NOT With...(Sanctfied)...(Sanctifi-ED, past tense),
(1 Cor 1:2
(Heb 10:10
(Heb 10:14
And Justified...(Justifi-ED ) (past tense).
(1Cor 6:11

I am Accounted Dead (Crucified) to Sin, Free from Sin. Covered, sanctified, Justified...
Justified? Justified to what?
To be Redeemed, Taken, Claimed by Christ Jesus On the Day He calls Up to Him, His Church to be Gathered together for the Ceremony Marriage Supper Celebration, RISEN IN Glory, becoming face to face with my Lord God.
(Side note: The Church called and Gathered Up commonly called Rapture) occurs Before the Great Tribulation ...and "During" the Great Tribulation, God is sending Servants to Earth "to gather"; Guests/ Witnesses, for His Sons Marriage Supper. It's a parallel...to Jesus' teaching...
(Matt 22: 1-14)

BY the internal Power of God, a Converted man CAN NOT, Sin Against God...
Can Not: not Believe IN God,
Can Not: Speak Against God.
Can Not: Lie to God.
Can Not: Leave, Divorce, Cheat (with other gods), etc.
God has SEAL- ED that man To God Himself Forever.

Jesus called such a man... WHOLE.
(Dead Bodily, crucified...fulfilling their sentence of ONE Death...
Soul Restored...again GOOD, as God called man when Adam was Created Bodily and given Gods Breath of Life (soul).
A new heart, given a man (the old Natural Heart Circumcised:
(Ezek 18:31
(Ezek 26:36
(Rom 2:29
A new spirit in the new heart;
(Ezek 11:19
(Ezek 18:31
(Ezek 26:36
And Gods Power / Spirit / Christ / True Light
(1 Cor 1:24
( John 1: 7,8,9

BY any man Accepting Gods Offering, (Jesus the Christ)...that man becomes MADE WHOLLY, WHOLE, "perfect-ed" IN Christ.
(Matt: 9:22
(Matt 14:36 ...Made perfect-LY WHOLE.

Now SOME will Disagree... based ON "TWO" things...
1)
1 John 1:8
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
^ That IS TRUE.

2) Then the Accuser will state his Second basis:
"HE" speaks FOR YOU, claiming..."You are Claiming to BE "Sin-LESS".
^ THAT IS FALSE.

I have Never claimed to be "sin-Less"
It is Asinine to to make claims for another.
It is Asinine to ignore a person Saying they Sinned Against God...to then have words stuffed in their mouth, that they are Sin-less.
It is Asinine to ignore a person saying their "SIN" is FORGIVEN and Covered......
(Not saying their Sin Was "excised out of their body").

My Sin was Covered By Gods Light.
God no longer Sees or Remembers my Sin.
If another CAN SEE into my spirit in my Heart...( well ain't he special... cause God Never gave other men that power)

1 Cor 2:
[11] For what man knoweth the things of a man, save / (except) the spirit of man which is in him?

One man can Only, Observe the Acts (fruit) of another man...to get knowledge of what is in a man's spirit in his heart.
(Does he praise God or stand Against God)...
(Does he Praise God openly, publically, but privately stand Against God)

The Pharisees, openly praised God...then murmured among themselves in Disbelief God Sent Jesus...and Jesus called them hypocrites and said Do what they Preach...Do Not Do what they Do.

The Lord God MAKING me WHOLE...and Free from Sin...Did NOT Make my FLESH Sin-Less...it MADE my body (Crucified) DEAD To Sin.
It Did Not make my Body PERFECT...
It MADE my WHOLENESS "In Him" Perfect.
He has Given ME Authority to Live "IN" His Risen Living Body.
He has Given me Promise TO Raise my Crucified Body, cleansed in His Blood, to Be RISEN "IN" glory... SINLESS.

^ That has NOT YET been Fulfilled.
Nor have I ever claimed it Was.
Even though Others at times have decided they can MAKE false claims "For me"...
I Know their ignorance and schemes have Not a basis IN Fact, and has Zero effect on my True Relationship with the Lord God and In Fact gives me knowledge of "their" fruit, (which is making false Testimony Against Others).

I am aware this has been lengthy...But then there is a huge difference between man's Carnal Understanding and Gods Understanding, which goes way beyond a man's Carnal Mind and logical understanding.
Everything hinges on Gods Offering...and the man Who accepts His Offering TO Understand Exactly what ALL God is accomplishing in a man WHO accepts His Offering.
God has Zero Wrath, Agony, Distance, Vengeance AGAINST a man WHOM, He has MADE WHOLE, BY and THROUGH and IN Christ the Lord Jesus

Glory to God,
God Bless,
Taken

Yes, a bit lengthy, lol. BUT...chock full of good info. Thank you for the reply...I agree with all you say ... except one thing and that is the "pre-trib rapture. Believed it for a very long time but, I see it differently now. All of the rest of your posts are awesome and very well thought out.
God Bless!
 

Taken

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Yes, a bit lengthy, lol. BUT...chock full of good info. Thank you for the reply...I agree with all you say ... except one thing and that is the "pre-trib rapture. Believed it for a very long time but, I see it differently now. All of the rest of your posts are awesome and very well thought out.
God Bless!

Perhaps we can at some point have a conversation about the Rapture. I am interested to hear your point of view.

God Bless,
Taken
 
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Nancy

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Perhaps we can at some point have a conversation about the Rapture. I am interested to hear your point of view.

God Bless,
Taken

Sure, I will get some verses together...it will probably get into the full and partial preterists viewpoints of the time frame of prophecies but...I'm brain dead right now, and up way past my bedtime. Will try to get to it tomorrow!
Nite. :)
 
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Nancy

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Sure, I will get some verses together...it will probably get into the full and partial preterists viewpoints of the time frame of prophecies but...I'm brain dead right now, and up way past my bedtime. Will try to get to it tomorrow!
Nite. :)

Hello @Taken,
This will by no means be an exhaustive account of why I no longer believe in the pre-trib rapture. There is much to be understood concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel, and the 69 weeks. I don't understand the gap so, my thoughts go to them being just one long 973 years. I'll not say that I understand allot of it because I don't but, other scripture tells me that we will be here.
If there were going to be a rapture, a secret rapture then it is the worst kept secret in history, lol. I doubt it would be a very silent event.
Pre trib has Christ returning 2 times. I see only one time as He meets those who have passed before and then those who are alive and remain, in the air. The imagery here to me is of meeting Christ in the air as He returns in Glory so that Christians get to participate in His victorious return. I can't see Him just coming so far, catch up the Church and just stay there, or go back to heaven until a later time.
In 1 Thess., Paul says those of US who are alive at His coming...(which tells me that Paul and all those around him could have been alive when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by Rome. I see Paul comforting his audience because they were worried that their loved ones who passed would not witness the prophecy's. The dead in Christ since being the first-fruits back then, were first to be resurrected. So, I would say they had a front row seat, haha.
And then, those alive and remaining will also be taken up in the air to MEET the Lord AS He descends, with the 7th Trumpet sound. The pre-trib rapture view isn't consistent with the timing of the major prophetical events in Revelation 4 to 19. I do believe God will have special protection for Christians during the great trib. And, we have so many warnings and instructions on how to build our faith no matter what happens. I know there is a ton more deep study needing to be done what with, the pre, post, mid rapture...the pre millenniums, post millenniums and such. There is so much to this that it is overwhelming. But, all I can say is all the years I did believe in the pre trib rapture, I only believed it because it was taught to me. But, over all the years and all the many things I have read has caused me to re-consider and has moved me closer to NOT believing in it. But hey, who knows! Either way, we should all be ready and waiting with strong faith. I'm sorry if I have not given a very good defense here, I probably have not but...for now it is the best I can do.
God Bless!


 

Nancy

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Hello @Taken,
This will by no means be an exhaustive account of why I no longer believe in the pre-trib rapture. There is much to be understood concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel, and the 69 weeks. I don't understand the gap so, my thoughts go to them being just one long 973 years. I'll not say that I understand allot of it because I don't but, other scripture tells me that we will be here.
If there were going to be a rapture, a secret rapture then it is the worst kept secret in history, lol. I doubt it would be a very silent event.
Pre trib has Christ returning 2 times. I see only one time as He meets those who have passed before and then those who are alive and remain, in the air. The imagery here to me is of meeting Christ in the air as He returns in Glory so that Christians get to participate in His victorious return. I can't see Him just coming so far, catch up the Church and just stay there, or go back to heaven until a later time.
In 1 Thess., Paul says those of US who are alive at His coming...(which tells me that Paul and all those around him could have been alive when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by Rome. I see Paul comforting his audience because they were worried that their loved ones who passed would not witness the prophecy's. The dead in Christ since being the first-fruits back then, were first to be resurrected. So, I would say they had a front row seat, haha.
And then, those alive and remaining will also be taken up in the air to MEET the Lord AS He descends, with the 7th Trumpet sound. The pre-trib rapture view isn't consistent with the timing of the major prophetical events in Revelation 4 to 19. I do believe God will have special protection for Christians during the great trib. And, we have so many warnings and instructions on how to build our faith no matter what happens. I know there is a ton more deep study needing to be done what with, the pre, post, mid rapture...the pre millenniums, post millenniums and such. There is so much to this that it is overwhelming. But, all I can say is all the years I did believe in the pre trib rapture, I only believed it because it was taught to me. But, over all the years and all the many things I have read has caused me to re-consider and has moved me closer to NOT believing in it. But hey, who knows! Either way, we should all be ready and waiting with strong faith. I'm sorry if I have not given a very good defense here, I probably have not but...for now it is the best I can do.
God Bless!


Anybody? Beuler? :D C'mon folks...tear my post apart, I know it's all over the place! lol.
 

Taken

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Hello @Taken,
This will by no means be an exhaustive account of why I no longer believe in the pre-trib rapture.
God Bless!

Thanks Nancy.
I would say a couple of brief things...
It is a deep subject that requires The Who, what, when, why, where of Every CREATED mankind of thing, spirit kind of thing...Before, and during, (Seals, Trumps, Bowls, Cup) Tribulation; Earth/mountains/quakes effects; Seas/Rivers effects; Weather/effects; Heavens/Clouds, stars/sun/moon/effects/ Insects effects...
And ... of course God...by which Title is doing What siamotainously.

Sure would be Easy if Scripture was laid out in an elementary billeted format of all knowledge per One specific topic together...
LOL

Glory to God,
God Bless,
Taken
 
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Taken

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Anybody? Beuler? :D C'mon folks...tear my post apart, I know it's all over the place! lol.

I disagree with Christ's Church being on Earth During the Tribulation.

I disagree With a purposal Jesus Returns to Earth Twice.

Beuler---

:D
 
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Nancy

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I disagree with Christ's Church being on Earth During the Tribulation.

I disagree With a purposal Jesus Returns to Earth Twice.

Beuler---

:D

Lol...yes I know that you do